PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #8

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Bellaneph: Whether or not it was Ray's laptop or he was borrowing it from work doesn't make me think any differently. You say that like it might have been a deterrent because it wasn't his. Being in his situation, and especially with what might have been on the laptop (which might have even been criminal for all we know) I really don't think he was thinking about littering, polluting the environment or the fact that the laptop wasn't actually his. I think getting rid of the whole thing in the end made whatever he had to do better.


Thanks for your response, and well thought out. You mention 'deterrent'...very interesting. That would come into play if he was planning on returning. On the way out (or if Foul Play), the HD AND the laptop are disposed. This is what I was trying to illustrate. Also, your comment (not highlighted here) concerning the matter of time (getting it all over with quickly) is a valuable insight. Many thanks for your contributions. :wink:
 
minazoe said:
Sandusky has been re arrested. I have my eye on him still...he has the coldest eyes I have ever seen.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. Watching HLN just now as I Post to you...what a mess, and about time they got him with these additional charges. I'm sure the PSU thread is hopping on this right now. Good to hear from you.
 
J. J. in Phila said:
Unless you wrote the story in the DI, you are not in any kind of doo doo. :) It is a potential sighting, just not as strong as we thought it was yesterday. And I just heard from BB about a half hour before it was posted.

Contrary to the article, I didn't want people think it had been confirmed. I also didn't want a repeat of the man in Utah. :)
Click to expand...

Glad you heard back from BB. I'm impressed. BB had been friends with RFG, so that says something. Good thinking on the John Doe from Utah...guess I'll scratch my plans for using his photo as an Avatar :)
 
Lord_Chatterly said:
Glad you heard back from BB. I'm impressed. BB had been friends with RFG, so that says something. Good thinking on the John Doe from Utah...guess I'll scratch my plans for using his photo as an Avatar :)
Click to expand...

The friend part isn't that important. He was briefed by DZ in May of 2005, along with the other area DA's, so he knew what they said about the LMW.
 
Regarding the computer components and their disposal-
Sometimes, a murderer will need to dispose of a victim's personal effects such as a woman's handbag or items of clothing..
But they don't toss them off bridges, at least not in any case I am aware of, ever. I am sure there are rare exceptions to almost everything, LOL.
(BTW, that's why the song " Ode To Billy Joe" was a hit.. People listening to the song kept wondering what BJ and the unnamed Mississippi girl threw off the bridge!! And they still do on websites devoted to the site. Mostly, the posters seemed normal too, LOL.)

Why go drive up on a bridge, stop or slow down and toss out a victim's identifiable computer? No one erased/ defaced the computer body's serial number. ( The HD cannot positively be ID'd as belonging to the computer 100%, but the likelihood is great that the HD in evidence came from Ray's Microsystems laptop).

Murder is usually difficult to hide, Remains are found, both human and material. Or someone sees suspicious activity and reports it, and their tips lead to apprehension of the perp. Or the perp. talked and someone snitched. Good people will report a crime, of course.

If Ray was killed, and the murderer or murderers managed to kill him and dispose of his body, however minimal or crude the disposal method might have been, why stick around to goof with his computer on a bridge? Either grab it and take it with you far away from the crime scene area if there was compelling reason to want to know what it contained or to make it disappear, or leave it alone if it was " just a PC" owned by Ray to the perp. His cell phone was left. His car was conspicuously left.
.
For a short time I thought maybe the computer was related to the Sandusky crimes. in which case the computer might BE the motive for murder if victim photos were sent to Ray as DA or he otherwise discovered digital evidence. Now, after thinking about it, Sandusky seems to have been focused upon the minor children only. Not adults in any way nor was he very concerned about detection.
JMO.

I spent a great deal of time looking at documentation again. Old threads here, Karen Arnold's website, news links which still work..
I wish Karen Arnold was still asking her questions. Once we discussed the " Paramour" word and I realized that I was not the only one to be put off by it, I could read the rest of her words objectively.
Her talking points are compelling.
Just needed to say that. :)
 
First, good to see you here:

SeekingJana said:
Why go drive up on a bridge, stop or slow down and toss out a victim's identifiable computer? No one erased/ defaced the computer body's serial number. ( The HD cannot positively be ID'd as belonging to the computer 100%, but the likelihood is great that the HD in evidence came from Ray's Microsystems laptop).

Murder is usually difficult to hide, Remains are found, both human and material. Or someone sees suspicious activity and reports it, and their tips lead to apprehension of the perp. Or the perp. talked and someone snitched. Good people will report a crime, of course.

If Ray was killed, and the murderer or murderers managed to kill him and dispose of his body, however minimal or crude the disposal method might have been, why stick around to goof with his computer on a bridge? Either grab it and take it with you far away from the crime scene area if there was compelling reason to want to know what it contained or to make it disappear, or leave it alone if it was " just a PC" owned by Ray to the perp. His cell phone was left. His car was conspicuously left.
Click to expand...

Here is a possible answer. RFG disposed of the drive, but was planning to meet someone. When he did, he took it with him. He was planning to be away overnight. He was worried about a car break in (there had been a string in Bellefonte), so he took the laptop with him.

He went away with someone, maybe a female, who wasn't planning to murder him, but something happened. RFG died, but the female didn't remember the laptop until a few days or weeks later. Maybe it was in the trunk.

When she finds it, she does not want to keep it; it will link her to RFG. She drives across the bridge, at night, slows down and drops it, maybe weeks later.

This is scenario that has been keeping me up at nights.
 
SeekingJana said:
Regarding the computer components and their disposal-
Sometimes, a murderer will need to dispose of a victim's personal effects such as a woman's handbag or items of clothing..
But they don't toss them off bridges, at least not in any case I am aware of, ever. I am sure there are rare exceptions to almost everything, LOL.
(BTW, that's why the song " Ode To Billy Joe" was a hit.. People listening to the song kept wondering what BJ and the unnamed Mississippi girl threw off the bridge!! And they still do on websites devoted to the site. Mostly, the posters seemed normal too, LOL.)

Why go drive up on a bridge, stop or slow down and toss out a victim's identifiable computer? No one erased/ defaced the computer body's serial number. ( The HD cannot positively be ID'd as belonging to the computer 100%, but the likelihood is great that the HD in evidence came from Ray's Microsystems laptop).

Murder is usually difficult to hide, Remains are found, both human and material. Or someone sees suspicious activity and reports it, and their tips lead to apprehension of the perp. Or the perp. talked and someone snitched. Good people will report a crime, of course.

If Ray was killed, and the murderer or murderers managed to kill him and dispose of his body, however minimal or crude the disposal method might have been, why stick around to goof with his computer on a bridge? Either grab it and take it with you far away from the crime scene area if there was compelling reason to want to know what it contained or to make it disappear, or leave it alone if it was " just a PC" owned by Ray to the perp. His cell phone was left. His car was conspicuously left.
.
For a short time I thought maybe the computer was related to the Sandusky crimes. in which case the computer might BE the motive for murder if victim photos were sent to Ray as DA or he otherwise discovered digital evidence. Now, after thinking about it, Sandusky seems to have been focused upon the minor children only. Not adults in any way nor was he very concerned about detection.
JMO.

I spent a great deal of time looking at documentation again. Old threads here, Karen Arnold's website, news links which still work..
I wish Karen Arnold was still asking her questions. Once we discussed the " Paramour" word and I realized that I was not the only one to be put off by it, I could read the rest of her words objectively.
Her talking points are compelling.
Just needed to say that. :)
Click to expand...

Now Lookie Who's here. So glad you are here. Been looking into some of that "Ode to BillieJo" that you speak of. I enjoy your reference to it. Now, as to your Post, I find the following items not 'just right' ...L o L

Right On !!! Welcome back !!! :)
 
J. J. in Phila said:
First, good to see you here:



Here is a possible answer. RFG disposed of the drive, but was planning to meet someone. When he did, he took it with him. He was planning to be away overnight. He was worried about a car break in (there had been a string in Bellefonte), so he took the laptop with him.

He went away with someone, maybe a female, who wasn't planning to murder him, but something happened. RFG died, but the female didn't remember the laptop until a few days or weeks later. Maybe it was in the trunk.

When she finds it, she does not want to keep it; it will link her to RFG. She drives across the bridge, at night, slows down and drops it, maybe weeks later.

This is scenario that has been keeping me up at nights.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the welcome. I read case material, etc. yesterday until I thought my eyes would bleed.

Couple of questions for you. Maybe looking at one of them differently will allow you to get your Zzzs :):
1) How would the killer remove the computer body from the trunk a week later when the BFD found and impounded the car within 30 hrs or Ray's disappearance?

2) If you had gotten away with murder, would you REALLY risk getting caught with an identifiable computer? Why would the killer not use Ray's car keys and put the thing in his car if she noticed it that night? It wasn't like some of his other personal effects weren't left in the car.
How would the computer body point to the killer back in his Mini if Ray had removed the HD?

Also, what did she do with his car keys, sunglasses, wallet, and BODY?
I think those are just as important, if not more important, questions.

I don't really understand why the computer shell is a huge problem. It could fit almost anywhere due to size and shape, leave with her in her car, and gosh, be buried under a full moon in her backyard. ( or dumped way out in the country once the serial number had been destroyed.)
Once the HD had been removed, it would be really easy to remove the serial number. Then it would be untraceable to him, thus untraceable to her.

I have some experience with hiding laptops.. Piece of cake!!
No experience with homicide though. ;)
 
J. J. in Phila said:
First, good to see you here:



Here is a possible answer. RFG disposed of the drive, but was planning to meet someone. When he did, he took it with him. He was planning to be away overnight. He was worried about a car break in (there had been a string in Bellefonte), so he took the laptop with him.

He went away with someone, maybe a female, who wasn't planning to murder him, but something happened. RFG died, but the female didn't remember the laptop until a few days or weeks later. Maybe it was in the trunk.

When she finds it, she does not want to keep it; it will link her to RFG. She drives across the bridge, at night, slows down and drops it, maybe weeks later.

This is scenario that has been keeping me up at nights.
Click to expand...

That seems to work, and I have heard you mention some of this scenario before. The only part I cannot follow is the virtual return to the scene of the crime...I am sure this "Other Person" would have known that RFG's car had been left behind EVER so close to the bridge toss off area. If that had been me doing the drop of the Laptop, I would be very concerned that cams may be everywhere, let alone all the 'Eyes on Everything' that would have followed the Gricar Disappearance media storm.

In short, why go back so close to Lewisburg ? Anyway, the scenario in general seems ok. Just the sequence may need turned around.
 
Lord_Chatterly said:
Now Lookie Who's here. So glad you are here. Been looking into some of that "Ode to BillieJo" that you speak of. I enjoy your reference to it. Now, as to your Post, I find the following items not 'just right' ...L o L

Right On !!! Welcome back !!! :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the welcome. Had a productive day yesterday,.. It's necessary for me to go back and separate fact from rumors in the case sometimes. Not that there are that many known facts.

I just keep thinking about how actual people wonder 45 years later what Bobbie Gentry meant.. What was thrown off the bridge.. It shows me that human curiosity is a powerful thing. :)

Here's a fun and mostly 'not strange' site about the song.. With a ton of email responses the site owner didn't expect to receive. :)
http://www.filibustercartoons.com/billyjoe.htm

PS- Lord C-- Did you Google Tallahatchie Bridge??? ;)
 
SeekingJana said:
Thanks for the welcome. I read case material, etc. yesterday until I thought my eyes would bleed.

Couple of questions for you. Maybe looking at one of them differently will allow you to get your Zzzs :):
1) How would the killer remove the computer body from the trunk a week later when the BFD found and impounded the car within 30 hrs or Ray's disappearance?
Click to expand...

RFG took it with him and possibly put it in the killer's trunk (or in the hall closet, for all I know). The killer didn't discover it until later.

2) If you had gotten away with murder, would you REALLY risk getting caught with an identifiable computer? Why would the killer not use Ray's car keys and put the thing in his car if she noticed it that night? It wasn't like some of his other personal effects weren't left in the car.
How would the computer body point to the killer back in his Mini if Ray had removed the HD?
Click to expand...

The killer might have forgotten it. Remember, I'm talking about a crime of passion.

And remember, the shell had identifying tags on it. It definitely was RFG's laptop.

Also, what did she do with his car keys, sunglasses, wallet, and BODY?
I think those are just as important, if not more important, questions.
Click to expand...

Well, if I knew that, I wouldn't be up late at night. :) I'd e-mail the BPD and say "Here is where to look for the body." :)

First step in this scenario is figure out who. Then figure out where.
 
SeekingJana said:
Thanks for the welcome. Had a productive day yesterday,.. It's necessary for me to go back and separate fact from rumors in the case sometimes. Not that there are that many known facts.

I just keep thinking about how actual people wonder 45 years later what Bobbie Gentry meant.. What was thrown off the bridge.. It shows me that human curiosity is a powerful thing. :)

Here's a fun and mostly 'not strange' site about the song.. With a ton of email responses the site owner didn't expect to receive. :)
http://www.filibustercartoons.com/billyjoe.htm
Click to expand...
:) :) :)

Oh good, just made fresh pot of Java ...passes cup to JJ
to help him stay up late tonite, some good reading material...lol...Thanks !!!
 
It is an interesting song and comment site. I think it is just Southern Gothic.

I will agree that we are watching Central Pennsylvania Gothic unfolding. :)
 
Jana PS- Lord C-- Did you Google Tallahatchie Bridge???

Duh...Google ? Who, me ? hehe...follow the 'Money', Honey...l o l
 
I won't be posting tonight. Tonight I write my Christmass letter.
 
J. J. in Phila said:
It is an interesting song and comment site. I think it is just Southern Gothic.

I will agree that we are watching Central Pennsylvania Gothic unfolding. :)
Click to expand...


How true. In my Google travels today, I had come across that story from up in Mansfield, Pa...the Asst. Math professor who was nabbed last year having committed child sex crimes...the child *advertiser censored* thing.

I placed Mansfield, Lewisburg, and State College on my Streets n Trips map, and such an interesting triangulation occurs. Lewisburg, of course, regarding Harclerode. Very Gothic !!!
 
minazoe said:
Southern Gothic...I like it.
Click to expand...

Definitely.. So is the song "The Night The Lights Went Out In Georgia" ( by Vicki Lawrence, of " Carol Burnett Show" fame)--- it was a national hit sometime in the 70's.. Lots of regional Southern Gothic songs were popular back when people cared to write lyrics with an intelligent type of implied pathos.

Oh, and years later, my favorite authors were Eudora Welty,Flannery O'Connor and William Faulkner- Master and Mistresses of Southern Gothic classic literature...

When I was a little girl, every second Sunday in July I had to endure a family reunion in some godforsaken part of Georgia. I mean, we are talking my grandfather's siblings.. And my grandfather was a sharecropper who became a landowner, who became wealthy when the new highway was built through his property years before I was born. I was the only young child there. All I really remember are the heat and the drive that lasted longer than Miss Daisy's..
AND The Bridge horror story..

These reunions in the backwoods of Georgia took our small family ( mother, father and me) through some part of a Southern state that had an infamous bridge.
I can remember one or the other of them telling me every year about this woman who cut up her husband and dumped the body parts off the bridge.. If I was asleep in the huge back seat, I was awakened before we arrived at the bridge so I could see that freaky thing. Big old bridge with the rusty metal structure overhead.. I couldn't have been more than 6 years old when I first heard this, and my parents were the most conservative Southern Baptists you can imagine back then, before I loosened them up. It was obvious very early in my life that we did NOT share any genetic material. Once, when I was looking for a townhouse, I was shown a very lovely one. Then I got this feeling.,. one I get.. I said " Someone was killed in here weren't they?" The realtor almost fainted too. Yes, last owner. I didn't hang around to find out the circumstances.
Very sensitive to vibes of that nature..
 
Lord_Chatterly said:
You sure as heck wrote one this morning. Go easy JJ...peek in when you can !!! :)


http://www.centredaily.com/2011/12/0.../a-blonde.html
Click to expand...

You have no idea how fast I write. :) I started that blog last night, but changed it when I heard from BB, this morning at 11:40 AM.

JKA noted that I had posted in excess of 1,500 times on the RFG case. I told a friend who knows my posting history elsewhere and he said, "Is that all?" :)

If you knew my actual publication list, actual physical stuff, you would easily understand that this is not a lot.
 
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