CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #1
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flipflop
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I agree with the Amazing Grace email, that is eerie...here is the timeline that I put together a few pages back...
Dec 22nd - Coffee with her friends
Dec 26th - Christmas at a friends house
Dec 27th - Soup delivered to AG's house as she was not feeling well
Dec 27th - AG emailed neighbour
Dec 27/28th - AG visited vet to pick up meds for dogs a few days before Dec 30th (as he was last to see AG alive)
Dec 27/28/29th - Sometime before coffee time on Wed, AG sent email saying she was ill
Dec 27 - LE believe AG was murdered this day (3 days before discovered)
Dec 29th - 2:30 am Fergusons dogs barking wildly
Dec 29th - Homeless man arrested
Dec 30th - 11am Handyman makes cake delivery and discovers AG
Valleyboy--I went back and checked and that window or opening is not visible in the photos posted by Hazel yesterday. I'm assuming you're talking about the semi-circle of corrugated metal surrounding an opening? Could that be to a "daylight" basement or just an opening for cross ventilation for the underhouse access opening. I don't know.
I've been thinking the same thing about the "Amazing Grace". Could that have been an horribly eery component of the murder or could Ms. Gleave been trying to send out some sort of alert? There's not a person named Grace connected with this woman is there?
I am no profiler--not at all. I rarely even read about murders. My interest and area of expertise is concerning pedophiles. The only reason this murder intrigued me was the element of sexual violence. This crime, as well as pedophilia, has changed the course of our family's life forever. I've been considering the only four reasons I can come up which would have an outcome of a murder such as this:
1) Ms. Gleave was unfortunate enough to cross paths with an extremely psychotic person. It seems odd that this would only happen once, though. Has Ancaster had other crimes, even in years past, such as this?
2) Ms. Gleave was preyed upon by someone or a group dabbling or seriously involved with the occult. That would explain the stabbing and the sexual assault. That's my concern about the cemetery nearby.
3) Ms. Gleave was preyed upon by a serial rapist as she fits his victim profile. Once again, I'd want to know if there had been similar attacks in the past. Possibly someone was just released from prison and has picked up where he left off.
4) She was killed by someone with whom she was close--a crime of passion. Possibly someone whom she had been romantically involved with who held a grudge or felt slighted or jilted. Man or woman, young or old....but someone close.
Can anyone add any other possible motives. I didn't include robbery as that doesn't seem to be the motive, IMO. I didn't add some sort of government hit as I think that would be made to look like a natural death or accident.
I think the issue of the dogs being sedated is a valid one. She wouldn't be picking up flea, tick, or heartworm meds as it's winter. But she surely could have been picking up meds for diabetes, heart trouble, seizures, arthritis or any number of issues. Being that they were high spirited, she might have medicated them with psychotropics. More and more dogs are taking them. Shepherds are also notorious for developing problems with their hindquarters. But why would she over-medicate them? Maybe it was her routine to give them something to sleep so she could, if they were barkers. Were the meds incorrect from the point of pick-up or did the killer come in and medicate the dogs before the attack or were they medicated this way each night? I'm interested as to your theory, eachandevery.
And flipflop, don't forget that there's another report that the doctor last saw her a few days before Christmas, rather than a few days after. Possibly just poor reporting.
I've been thinking the same thing about the "Amazing Grace". Could that have been an horribly eery component of the murder or could Ms. Gleave been trying to send out some sort of alert? There's not a person named Grace connected with this woman is there?
I am no profiler--not at all. I rarely even read about murders. My interest and area of expertise is concerning pedophiles. The only reason this murder intrigued me was the element of sexual violence. This crime, as well as pedophilia, has changed the course of our family's life forever. I've been considering the only four reasons I can come up which would have an outcome of a murder such as this:
1) Ms. Gleave was unfortunate enough to cross paths with an extremely psychotic person. It seems odd that this would only happen once, though. Has Ancaster had other crimes, even in years past, such as this?
2) Ms. Gleave was preyed upon by someone or a group dabbling or seriously involved with the occult. That would explain the stabbing and the sexual assault. That's my concern about the cemetery nearby.
3) Ms. Gleave was preyed upon by a serial rapist as she fits his victim profile. Once again, I'd want to know if there had been similar attacks in the past. Possibly someone was just released from prison and has picked up where he left off.
4) She was killed by someone with whom she was close--a crime of passion. Possibly someone whom she had been romantically involved with who held a grudge or felt slighted or jilted. Man or woman, young or old....but someone close.
Can anyone add any other possible motives. I didn't include robbery as that doesn't seem to be the motive, IMO. I didn't add some sort of government hit as I think that would be made to look like a natural death or accident.
I think the issue of the dogs being sedated is a valid one. She wouldn't be picking up flea, tick, or heartworm meds as it's winter. But she surely could have been picking up meds for diabetes, heart trouble, seizures, arthritis or any number of issues. Being that they were high spirited, she might have medicated them with psychotropics. More and more dogs are taking them. Shepherds are also notorious for developing problems with their hindquarters. But why would she over-medicate them? Maybe it was her routine to give them something to sleep so she could, if they were barkers. Were the meds incorrect from the point of pick-up or did the killer come in and medicate the dogs before the attack or were they medicated this way each night? I'm interested as to your theory, eachandevery.
And flipflop, don't forget that there's another report that the doctor last saw her a few days before Christmas, rather than a few days after. Possibly just poor reporting.
That is what I am talking about.
We have the same thing here because the actual window is below the
ground level and that corrugated metal keeps the water from running into
the basement.
We do have a full finished basement and because the house is on a slope
there is the one window like that.
LilyMacBloom
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My aquaintance and friend to LV and A. met up today. On something totally unrealated. I said my "group" just had a couple of questions
On if there is a basement. Yes, there is a basement.
Where were the dogs, kitchen, basement, barracked, she said they aren't exactly sure for that particular period.
A.'s body was discovered OUTSIDE the home but Suzy didn't know for sure where. ie: garage, back porch, front, driveway by pond etc.
LV has cleaned out the entire home contents, several dumpsters full.
It did not appear that there had been any theft of items from the home.
I'll surmise the perp did not get in the house at all. I'll leave it for you to figure out why she would go outside, did she leave the house via vehicle and come home to discover someone in the garage? on the property?
So many questions, so few answers.
On if there is a basement. Yes, there is a basement.
Where were the dogs, kitchen, basement, barracked, she said they aren't exactly sure for that particular period.
A.'s body was discovered OUTSIDE the home but Suzy didn't know for sure where. ie: garage, back porch, front, driveway by pond etc.
LV has cleaned out the entire home contents, several dumpsters full.
It did not appear that there had been any theft of items from the home.
I'll surmise the perp did not get in the house at all. I'll leave it for you to figure out why she would go outside, did she leave the house via vehicle and come home to discover someone in the garage? on the property?
So many questions, so few answers.
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<snip>
Okay ... doggie person on a roll here
I've owned shepherds for years. I have never had one that is an annoying barker. Typically they only bark when there is something most definite to bark about. Gold standard treatment for arthritis in dogs is an anti-inflammatory called Metacam (expensive, the most effective, no sedating effects at all). None of my shepherds have had hip dysplasia, but I would think you might want them reasonably sedated to control excess activity.
Shepherds are also notorious for quietly suffering without exhibiting symptoms, and by the time symptoms are apparent, the condition can be quite severe. If Audrey made only one visit to the vet over a period of time, then it does not seem her dogs were requiring extensive treatment for anything.
I'll have to go back and check, and it may have been reporter error or simply mis-statement, but my recollection is that it was meds for her dogS (plural). So, possibly 2 dogs, 2 different types of meds, or if the same meds, then I would suspect a more common problem such as arthritis.
Don't know any responsible dog lover, such as Audrey was, who would sedate an animal for their own comfort at night time. Most people who own shepherds know they can rely on them for a security alert, and IMO, that would be relied on even moreso at night by a woman living alone. When people see shepherds that THEY think are out of control, they are seeing the shepherd "doing their job", and are not seeing what they interpret as an "out of control" shepherd. I had one shepherd that people were terrified of ... until about 10 minutes into the intro after SHE decided they were just fine thanks! Then she loved you forever. She was not vicious or out-of-control in our household. She only barked and carried on when someone arrived at the door. I kept her back, not because i was afraid she'd attack someone, but because my company felt more secure with me doing it.
eachandevery
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Thank you so much for the timeline, flipflop!
Okay, so assuming Audrey was killed on the 27th, could the email about the coffee meet-up have been sent by someone else, most likely in order to buy time to cover up crucial evidence? Was this timeline created to give potential suspects rock solid alibis? I would hate to think someone close (well, as close as she would let people get) to Audrey had a hand in this, but I'm having a hard time believing this was a random murder. If those dogs were as mean as her friends say, I would think they'd have done some damage to the murderer(s).
The reason I wonder if the dogs had been sedated, is due to the possibility that this was a pre-planned attack and the knowledge that the dogs wouldn't be an issue made it perfect timing. Then again, some dogs take medication for various reasons, and they could have a naturally sedating effect. Unless Audrey had her dogs on year-round heart worm medication (possible), I don't see that as being something she'd pick up. Even if the dogs were familiar with those responsible, surely they would have jumped into action once they heard/saw Audrey being attacked.
One of these journalists has to sort out the timeline; these dates are way too confusing.
I can't think of a single reason why anyone, familiar or not, would want to murder this woman - especially in what's been described as a horrendous way, but the fact is that they did. As someone who is familiar with this area, it's pretty shocking news.
ETA: Out of curiosity, has it been mentioned where these coffee meet-ups took place? Okay, forget the question. I just read an article that specified Williams Fresh Cafe.
I wonder why Audrey was so paranoid. I mean, I would be paranoid just because secluded areas creep me out, but she even went as far as stopping communication with her ex-husband's brother due to believing he might have given out her email address. Was there a specific person Audrey was afraid of, for whatever reason? Did the brother (possibly) giving out her email address mean anything important, and did that info fall into the wrong hands? I wonder when this email issue happened.
tiredblondy
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<snip>
Was she paranoid, or simply taking appropriate precautions given a specific situation? With 4 computers, i'd say Audrey had an online presence somewhere, for some reasons. Maybe Audrey was angry at BIL because FF got her contact info through emails. Yep, banning the BIL was pretty harsh and unforgiving, wasn't it? I'm curious as to when that happened, because Audrey's ex says he hadn't spoken with her since 1976. Seems either Audrey banned the BIL many years ago, or remained in touch with the BIL even after she last spoke with her ex-husband.
I almost wasn't going to make the following statements out of respect for Audrey, but ... I don't think there's any doubt that Audrey had and has everyone's respect. It is what she experienced at the hands of a monster that is the only disrespectful issue in this case. So, on a very sensitive topic, and in as respectful a fashion as I can ... I wonder what constitutes "sexual assault" according to the ME. Considering the exceptional degree of horror that seems to be associated with Audrey's murder, I'm wondering if the sexual component of her death differs somewhat from what we would normally think of as a sexual assault.
tiredblondy
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I have to wonder about her past. Perhaps there was a reason she was so private, paranoid and upset about having her email address forwarded in those jokes to others. Maybe she did not want someone to know how to find her?
If this is not a random attack by some maniac or evil group perhaps there are ties to her past associated with this. In one article she stated something like the ring her ex gave her was the only good thing he did, or something like that. I'm not trying to implicate him but there could be something from her past she was afraid of that found her.
I'm almost 60, am alone a lot! When I read about cases like this it really hits home!
If this is not a random attack by some maniac or evil group perhaps there are ties to her past associated with this. In one article she stated something like the ring her ex gave her was the only good thing he did, or something like that. I'm not trying to implicate him but there could be something from her past she was afraid of that found her.
I'm almost 60, am alone a lot! When I read about cases like this it really hits home!
PeonyLover
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There is no snow on the ground in the Google Earth view of the property. I was trying to determine whether the photo was actually captured in spring or late fall but when zooming in closer, the picture became too distorted to be sure, however, there is plenty of green grass visible.
A lot of the google earth pictures are years old.
Look at the pictures of the crime scene in posts 142 & 143 on page 6
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From:
http://www.brantnews.com/news.cfm?page=news§ion=read&articleId=9566
"Police are searching three buildings on the property and the surrounding area." Hrab said.
I wonder where the other buildings are in relation to the house. Can't see any of them on Google Earth, and only see the house and one other outbuilding in that pic that Hazel posted. Also, was Audrey's property substantial acreage? Google Earth shows the cemetary to the east, and a very long lane/drive to the west of Audrey's property, but no buildings are visible. Just thinking if that property to the west is vacant land, it is possible the perp(s) arrived by vehicle from that direction.
http://www.brantnews.com/news.cfm?page=news§ion=read&articleId=9566
"Police are searching three buildings on the property and the surrounding area." Hrab said.
I wonder where the other buildings are in relation to the house. Can't see any of them on Google Earth, and only see the house and one other outbuilding in that pic that Hazel posted. Also, was Audrey's property substantial acreage? Google Earth shows the cemetary to the east, and a very long lane/drive to the west of Audrey's property, but no buildings are visible. Just thinking if that property to the west is vacant land, it is possible the perp(s) arrived by vehicle from that direction.
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<snip>
Thanks for all the info Lily.
What creep with a sexual motive would choose to accost someone in the great outdoors in winter and why?
Hamilton historical data for the dates in question:
Max / Min
Dec 27 -2.3 -6.1
Dec 28 -3.8 -12.3
Dec 29 -9.7 -16.6
Dec 30 -5.6 -16.9
IMO, either an insane person, or a sane person who knew there might be dogs to contend with.
ETA: Hamilton PD statement indicates Audrey was found "in the residence". Could be a red herring, dunno.
http://www.hamiltonpolice.on.ca/HPS/News/gleave.htm
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3 hours ago ..
full article:
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/473714--police-buttoned-up-on-gleave-killing
full article:
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/473714--police-buttoned-up-on-gleave-killing
From sillybilly's link.
Investigators have been sharing information on the killing with other police forces, but have not yet taken a hard look at other unsolved murders in the region.
“Because we’re still in the early parts of our investigation and we don’t have a complete picture, we can’t really compare our crime to other crimes with the most information available,” Hrab said.
Maybe the perp really is someone unknown to AG and perhaps (as Sillyb. previously suggested ), possibly some connection to the S,V and S.L case in Orangeville?
Thinking of the word orange,the dark film about violent youth, " A Clockwork Orange"
comes to mind.
Investigators have been sharing information on the killing with other police forces, but have not yet taken a hard look at other unsolved murders in the region.
“Because we’re still in the early parts of our investigation and we don’t have a complete picture, we can’t really compare our crime to other crimes with the most information available,” Hrab said.
Maybe the perp really is someone unknown to AG and perhaps (as Sillyb. previously suggested ), possibly some connection to the S,V and S.L case in Orangeville?
Thinking of the word orange,the dark film about violent youth, " A Clockwork Orange"
comes to mind.
eachandevery
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The articles I've read have used the word paranoid, and based on her (alleged) behaviour, I have to agree. Didn't she have two friends in the same area, but made sure they didn't know about each other? I know there's a link to that info in here somewhere. Given that she had regular coffee dates with acquaintances, I assume those two weren't included.
I wonder if all 4 computers worked, or if some were old ones that could no longer be used. It seems pointless to keep computers that are useless, but maybe her tech knowledge, coupled with her intense need for privacy, prevented her from throwing them out. It's nearly impossible to wipe computers clean, right? I have no idea what she could have been doing, either online or offline, but it might have been something Audrey felt she needed to hide. I wonder if she had more than one email address. Or perhaps she changed the original when she believed her former brother-in-law had revealed it to others? I could be getting this information mixed up, but didn't Audrey get upset when her emails were forwarded to others with her address still attached? She cut the BIL out of her life entirely because she believed he gave it away, but it sounds as though she didn't react the same way regarding the forwarding. I'll have to go back and read the newspaper articles, since I can only remember her neighbour being connected with the email stuff.
Did Audrey's neighbour ever comment on the "Amazing Grace" message? I'd love to know if it fit in with the type of stuff Audrey usually sent her, or if it struck her as unusual. Was there a specific time of day that she would send email? I know it wasn't something she did all the time, but when she did, maybe it was part of her schedule.
I think the word paranoid needs to be taken in context. I happen to believe, JMO, that Ms. Gleave, had some level of Spectrum disorder. Absolutely everything I've read points in that direction. Notice in the photos of her that she never hugs anyone else but they hug her. She was a bit uncomfortable in social settings and in reading social cues. That just made her unique. I have several children on the Spectrum and know a number of tremendously bright people with this diagnosis. As I've said before, this is not a disrespectful comment about her personality but a measured observation. She was bright, private, a little quirky. Ms. Gleave liked to feel in control of the situation. I know exactly how that comes across.
It's highly possible that when cornered or threatened, she over-reacted. I'm not "blaming" her in any way for her demise. Hardly. I just know what happens when you corner someone with Asperger's or high functioning autism. They can literally go off the deep end. I see it as a possibility that someone confronted her and her response was more than they expected or could deal with. Things might have gotten uglier than initially planned. Just an observation.
And Sillybilly, thank you for the info on shepherds. I've done rescue of elder and disabled poodles and chihuahuas for years so my experience is very different. I certainly would never sedate an animal for my comfort but I've adopted animals who were regularly sedated--usually with Benadryl or something similar. And that can be purchased at any drug store. I fully understand that shepherds are not "barky" but I also recall how Ms. Gleave's best friend felt intimidated by them. She might not be a dog person or the dogs might be poorly socialized. I still wonder if anyone knows if she's always kept shepherds or if she's had a variety of breeds. I have to say that I was a little taken back when the vet said that they "wouldn't be euthanized". With the number of wonderful rescue groups in the states and in Canada, I wouldn't think so. My goodness. We once adopted a blind, deaf, three-legged and toothless 18 year old poodle after her owner passed. Gave that little girl another 2 years of absolute spoiling and hospice care. No doubt there is a placement for these two dogs.
It's highly possible that when cornered or threatened, she over-reacted. I'm not "blaming" her in any way for her demise. Hardly. I just know what happens when you corner someone with Asperger's or high functioning autism. They can literally go off the deep end. I see it as a possibility that someone confronted her and her response was more than they expected or could deal with. Things might have gotten uglier than initially planned. Just an observation.
And Sillybilly, thank you for the info on shepherds. I've done rescue of elder and disabled poodles and chihuahuas for years so my experience is very different. I certainly would never sedate an animal for my comfort but I've adopted animals who were regularly sedated--usually with Benadryl or something similar. And that can be purchased at any drug store. I fully understand that shepherds are not "barky" but I also recall how Ms. Gleave's best friend felt intimidated by them. She might not be a dog person or the dogs might be poorly socialized. I still wonder if anyone knows if she's always kept shepherds or if she's had a variety of breeds. I have to say that I was a little taken back when the vet said that they "wouldn't be euthanized". With the number of wonderful rescue groups in the states and in Canada, I wouldn't think so. My goodness. We once adopted a blind, deaf, three-legged and toothless 18 year old poodle after her owner passed. Gave that little girl another 2 years of absolute spoiling and hospice care. No doubt there is a placement for these two dogs.
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<snip>
Audrey was referred to by her ex-husband as "protective of her private life because she lived alone". I didn't interpret that Audrey "made sure" the two friends didn't meet ... it was simply a stated fact that they hadn't. I have a variety of friends, some of whom I would not dream of putting together based on differences in personalities.
The regular Wednesday coffee get-together was a group of retired Westdale
teachers. It is understandable that she would not invite others to that specific group.
I guess I had missed this. I knew that Ms. Gleave sent her friends occasional emails but this explains that she included neighbors:
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/a...e-warn-public-after-horrific-killing-of-woman
"...A couple of years ago, Gleave asked for the F’s [neighbors] email address, and after that she would occasionally pass on jokes, riddles and Internet links.
The last email Mr. F received from Gleave was on Monday night, when she passed on a link to a version of “Amazing Grace.”
That is the last time police believe anyone who knew Gleave had contact with her.
No neighbours reported seeing or hearing anything suspicious over the past few days. But the Fs’ dogs suddenly began barking wildly around 2:30 a.m. Wednesday.
On Friday, Hamilton police and OPP were searching Gleave’s property, which is surrounded by dense forest, with a cemetery on one side...."
more at link
Unless the emails were sent individually, I would think all her friends received the same message at the same time....Monday night. The soup was brought to her Monday Morning. Surely, if she was out and about sometime Monday afternoon or evening, I'd think someone would have recognized her car. This is pretty clear that her whereabouts are just not clearly known, or reported, from Monday morning through Thursday.
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/a...e-warn-public-after-horrific-killing-of-woman
"...A couple of years ago, Gleave asked for the F’s [neighbors] email address, and after that she would occasionally pass on jokes, riddles and Internet links.
The last email Mr. F received from Gleave was on Monday night, when she passed on a link to a version of “Amazing Grace.”
That is the last time police believe anyone who knew Gleave had contact with her.
No neighbours reported seeing or hearing anything suspicious over the past few days. But the Fs’ dogs suddenly began barking wildly around 2:30 a.m. Wednesday.
On Friday, Hamilton police and OPP were searching Gleave’s property, which is surrounded by dense forest, with a cemetery on one side...."
more at link
Unless the emails were sent individually, I would think all her friends received the same message at the same time....Monday night. The soup was brought to her Monday Morning. Surely, if she was out and about sometime Monday afternoon or evening, I'd think someone would have recognized her car. This is pretty clear that her whereabouts are just not clearly known, or reported, from Monday morning through Thursday.
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