17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #27

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
Concerned Papa said:
As I understand it, you are correct. However, the problem for his defense is possibly going to center around documented evidence as to the body's location. Remember, only 18 seconds lapsed during the 911 call between GZ getting out of his vehicle and the 911 dispatcher's admonition not to follow TM. That doesn't allow for much more than 100 feet of travel on GZ's part.

Any altercation that happened beyound that point would, to me, seem to be as a result of "Pursuing Your Ground" as opposed to "Standing Your Ground".

I'm aware of several different locations having been given for the body, but if the SPD report and the SFD's dispatch recordings are correct, TM's body was 200 feet +/- from where GZ got out of his truck.

IMO, if that's the case, he's got a huge problem in proving a SYG defense against an unarmed 17 year old kid who was breaking no laws.
Click to expand...

Is the SPD report the same report that said GZ was wearing a 'red' jacket? (I know there were conversations on the accuracy of that).

I guess what I'm asking is, how much accuracy are we putting in the SPD report?
 
CathyinTexas said:
That is true, but the judge has to believe your story. If he doesn't believe some of it he can/may disregard all of it. That is what I hope happens when the judge hears his SYG claims.
Click to expand...

True and that's going to be the issue. I mentioned in the previous thread that without someone else or some crucial piece of evidence (TM prints on the gun handle?) that points to TM having an upper hand in the struggle, it's only going to be GZ's word and there is no way he's going to be able to get by with just that.
 
lillygator said:
As a Floridian, we walk/run/dance/play/run errands/ in the rain? It's what we do! If we didn't leave our homes everytime it rained here... we would never get anything done. I see you are a Gator fan, so I can only assume that you have lived in Florida?

Walking in the rain in Florida is like walking in the snow up North.

the bolded I brought over from the other thread - not sure how to quote it correctly but it was posted by lolamoon...


I have lived in FL my entire life - of course we go out in the rain, like in our cars, etc....but if it is pouring out no one would be walking to the corner store. I don't see too many people out walking or dancing in the rain, most are trying to get out of it.
Click to expand...

The GF said when it started to rain TM stepped under the club house awning and pulled up his hoody. So it is likely that it wasn't raining when he started out to the store. Teenagers probably worry even less about the rain if that is typical weather in Florida.
 
LinasK said:
From the last thread:
The thing is- that if George really did have a head injury, he would be checked for neurological signs and symptoms of one. He did not stumble, talk incoherently, or any of the other signs medics look for. If he had exhibited those signs, and he still refused treatment, they would have documented his injuries and made him sign a medical clearance stating that he was refusing medical treatment against medical advice, and not just "cleared" him. Natasha Richardson did refuse treatment, not realizing how severe her injury was, until the headache from the bleeding inside her brain got unbearable- then she went to the hospital, she did not die in her room. I read an interview a long time ago with her husband who visited her in the E.R.
We have no evidence that George has exhibited any signs/symptoms of head injury, not even minor closed head injury since the shooting. It would have been evident well by now. You don't get to the point of "needing to be spoon-fed and in diapers for life" and exhibit zero neurological signs of it, you aren't even able to get up and walk straight or talk normally if you are that severe. I used to work with Head Trauma patients immediately following motorcycle accidents, car accidents, and gunshot wounds.
Therefore I have to conclude that George (and his brother and father and friends- whose testimony is only hearsay, based on what George told them since they weren't there) is lying. This is NOT vengeance, only a desire to see justice for an unarmed teen who was shot dead for no good reason.
Click to expand...

Amen LinasK.

Another point--Someone who has sustained a terrible cement pounding head injury/life threatening beating would have a very hard time walking while their hands were cuffed. Their sense of balance would be off.
GZ walks effortlessly, and balances normally. He walks for quite a distance just fine. He shows absolutely no signs of any "seconds from depends" head injuries.
 
Phoenixfla said:
We all seem to be going around and around and I know we'll never see eye to eye, but it does not matter if he did not have a tramatic brain injury, only that he feared for his life.

If the forensic evidence backs up his story that he was on his back, and fired at close range with a trajectory consistent with being straddled, AND he has some visible injuries (which I have no doubt that the police photographed), he will be able to argue that HE felt his life was in danger and had the right do defend himself with deadly force.

If the forensic evidence shows that he shot TM while they were both standing, or at a distance further than a foot or so, so while TM was on the ground and GZ was not, then I say lock him up for a long time.

I am paitently awaiting for further evidence, and if I dont get that until the trial, I am ok with that. I am merely a spectator.
Click to expand...
My response is with what's bolded in red- this is the key, but I don't believe this evidence exists. I think George went into CYA mode and decided to use SYG when he discovered that instead of a weapon or stolen property, all TM had on him were the Skittles and Iced Tea.
 
Where's the blood??

He had his nose broken, no blood on his clothes.
He had his head beaten, no blood on his clothes.
He shot Trayvon in the chest while Trayvon was on top of him, pounding his head into the ground, no blood on his clothes.

Police note blood on his nose and back of his head, that's supposed to support a beating and a broken nose. Blood from bloody noses drips, blood from beatings drip. Blood from shooting someone right on top of you should get blood on you.

Where is it, where is any of all this blood shown on his clothes?

JMHO
 
Phoenixfla said:
We all seem to be going around and around and I know we'll never see eye to eye, but it does not matter if he did not have a tramatic brain injury, only that he feared for his life.

If the forensic evidence backs up his story that he was on his back, and fired at close range with a trajectory consistent with being straddled, AND he has some visible injuries (which I have no doubt that the police photographed), he will be able to argue that HE felt his life was in danger and had the right do defend himself with deadly force.

If the forensic evidence shows that he shot TM while they were both standing, or at a distance further than a foot or so, so while TM was on the ground and GZ was not, then I say lock him up for a long time.

I am paitently awaiting for further evidence, and if I dont get that until the trial, I am ok with that. I am merely a spectator.
Click to expand...

In a struggle or scuffle both could end up on the bottom, most likely. I hope that the ME or investigators noted whether or not TM's back was wet. I think it is even possible that GZ was calculating enough to position himself in that way before firing. He staged it, imo, based on his deliberate phrasing to the dispatcher and actions afterwards.
 
judgelester.jpg


Ken Lester named new judge in Zimmerman murder case


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...prosecutor-angela-corey-murder-case-new-judge

He has already made plans to preside at Zimmerman's bond hearing. It'll start at 9 a.m. Friday and be in Recksiedler's courtroom, 5D at the Seminole Criminal Justice Center.

Lester, 58, has been a judge since 1997. He got the job the hard way: He ran against an incumbent and won.

He is popular with attorneys and has a reputation for doing things quickly.

Orlando attorney Wayne Klinkbeil was an assistant public defender assigned to Lester's courtroom when the judge first took the bench in 1997. Lester, he said, is a very good judge.

He is consistent, a tough sentencer, Klinkbeil said, "very in control of his courtroom, very straightforward with expectations."
Click to expand...
 
Phoenixfla said:
We all seem to be going around and around and I know we'll never see eye to eye, but it does not matter if he did not have a tramatic brain injury, only that he feared for his life.

If the forensic evidence backs up his story that he was on his back, and fired at close range with a trajectory consistent with being straddled, AND he has some visible injuries (which I have no doubt that the police photographed), he will be able to argue that HE felt his life was in danger and had the right do defend himself with deadly force.

If the forensic evidence shows that he shot TM while they were both standing, or at a distance further than a foot or so, so while TM was on the ground and GZ was not, then I say lock him up for a long time.

I am paitently awaiting for further evidence, and if I dont get that until the trial, I am ok with that. I am merely a spectator.
Click to expand...

JMO/IMO
Maybe he "feared"...or maybe he knew he needed to make sure he said he "feared".
I think it's likely GZ understands the ins and outs of SYG pretty well. :wink:
 
lillygator said:
As a Floridian, we walk/run/dance/play/run errands/ in the rain? It's what we do! If we didn't leave our homes everytime it rained here... we would never get anything done. I see you are a Gator fan, so I can only assume that you have lived in Florida?

Walking in the rain in Florida is like walking in the snow up North.

the bolded I brought over from the other thread - not sure how to quote it correctly but it was posted by lolamoon...


I have lived in FL my entire life - of course we go out in the rain, like in our cars, etc....but if it is pouring out no one would be walking to the corner store. I don't see too many people out walking or dancing in the rain, most are trying to get out of it.
Click to expand...

I expect it was not raining when Trayvon left for the store, but he'd walked nearly two miles, taking his time while he talked to his girlfriend. He is on video at the 7-Eleven at 6-6:30, so he took at least 30 minutes to walk back. Apparently it began raining as he got back to the subdivision - that's why he told his girlfriend he ducked under a porch and raised his hoodie. (All this from my memory but originally gathered from various MSM sources.)

I know while working on my farm there have been plenty of times when I walked to the barn then got caught there when storms came through. I could wait at the barn or just go out in the rain to walk the sixth of a mile back to the house. Unless it was lightning, I usually would just come home.

IMO, JMO, etc.

ETA - I've lived in Florida all my life, too - first in Polk County now in Leon.
 
Phoenixfla said:
We all seem to be going around and around and I know we'll never see eye to eye, but it does not matter if he did not have a tramatic brain injury, only that he feared for his life.

If the forensic evidence backs up his story that he was on his back, and fired at close range with a trajectory consistent with being straddled, AND he has some visible injuries (which I have no doubt that the police photographed), he will be able to argue that HE felt his life was in danger and had the right do defend himself with deadly force.

If the forensic evidence shows that he shot TM while they were both standing, or at a distance further than a foot or so, so while TM was on the ground and GZ was not, then I say lock him up for a long time.

I am paitently awaiting for further evidence, and if I dont get that until the trial, I am ok with that. I am merely a spectator.
Click to expand...

BBM: Wouldn't GZ have known that while he was sitting in his truck? He admitted he did not know who this kid was but got out of his car anyway with a loaded gun to pursue TM. Did it not occur to him that there could be a confrontation when GZ caught up with TM because the first time TM saw GZ he was in a vehicle and the next time GZ would be on foot? What did he think TM would think??????

I do not think the law was ever intended for use when someone who has total control of a situation, pursues someone with the intent of keeping them from getting away and then suddenly feels he has lost control of a situation so he decides it's time to pull out his gun and use deadly force.

If this were me being followed and I felt threatened by someone who suddenly gets out of their car to follow me further I'd want to protect myself. I would want that law to apply to me because once GZ left his car he was the person who was the most dangerous in their encounter. Given the fact that GZ was older, more experiences, had a background as a bouncer and was studying to join LE, GZ had the advantage all the way. TM had no advantage, did not know why someone was following him, did not know GZ had a gun, did not know LE was on the way and did not know GZ was determined this one was not going to get away. jmo
 
LinasK said:
My response is with what's bolded in red- this is the key, but I don't believe this evidence exists. I think George went into CYA mode and decided to use SYG when he discovered that instead of a weapon or stolen property, all TM had on him were the Skittles and Iced Tea.
Click to expand...

And is it possible that GZ was prompted on this!?
 
cityslick said:
I think the point of the SYG law (which GZ will be trying to claim) is you don't have to actually get hurt to claim self defense, just be in fear of getting hurt.
Click to expand...

Actually, I think you really DO have to get hurt to claim self defense, at least when you are holding a gun and the other person is unarmed.
 
lillygator said:
this is very possible, which is why I asked long ago if it was raining when he left.


here it can be raining on the neighbor's side of the street but not mine - those are usually just sprinkles.

Someone posted in a previous thread that it was "pouring" which I had never heard that it was and if it was wouldn't GZ's clothing have been soaked? I don't think it was mentioned about the rain in the police reports we have seen either, correct? I'll have to go back and look!
Click to expand...

According to Weather Underground, it'd been alternating between light rain and overcast all afternoon and into the evening. Unfortunately, they only have once an hour observations: http://www.wunderground.com/history...ty=Sanford&req_state=FL&req_statename=Florida

Later, at 10:35 it went to heavy rain and then at least until 10:53 is listed just as rain. Maybe that is why any investigation seemed to be cut short? If they'd gathered what they could and any additional evidence may have gotten rained out, the police may have decided to get out of that mess. The temperature was down to 64 and heavy rain at that temp is no fun even if it's not truly cold!
 
CathyinTexas said:
I think it is even possible that GZ was calculating enough to position himself in that way before firing.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Just so I am clear, you think it was possible that GZ manipulated the situation so that TM was on top of him so that he could deliberately shoot TM and claim self defense?

I'm sorry, but if the evidence backs up his story, I'm just inclined to believe him. Call me crazy.
 
csziggy said:
I expect it was not raining when Trayvon left for the store, but he'd walked nearly two miles, taking his time while he talked to his girlfriend. He is on video at the 7-Eleven at 6-6:30, so he took at least 30 minutes to walk back. Apparently it began raining as he got back to the subdivision - that's why he told his girlfriend he ducked under a porch and raised his hoodie. (All this from my memory but originally gathered from various MSM sources.)

I know while working on my farm there have been plenty of times when I walked to the barn then got caught there when storms came through. I could wait at the barn or just go out in the rain to walk the sixth of a mile back to the house. Unless it was lightning, I usually would just come home.

IMO, JMO, etc.

ETA - I've lived in Florida all my life, too - first in Polk County now in Leon.
Click to expand...

born and raised in Polk County!

re the new judge - is he good?
 
csziggy said:
According to Weather Underground, it'd been alternating between light rain and overcast all afternoon and into the evening. Unfortunately, they only have once an hour observations: http://www.wunderground.com/history...ty=Sanford&req_state=FL&req_statename=Florida

Later, at 10:35 it went to heavy rain and then at least until 10:53 is listed just as rain. Maybe that is why any investigation seemed to be cut short? If they'd gathered what they could and any additional evidence may have gotten rained out, the police may have decided to get out of that mess. The temperature was down to 64 and heavy rain at that temp is no fun even if it's not truly cold!
Click to expand...

I've never heard of any police detective just halting and abandoning an investigation due to cold and rainy weather!!

Then again, the SPD didn't seem to have much interest in an investigation to begin with. IMO
 
Phoenixfla said:
We all seem to be going around and around and I know we'll never see eye to eye, but it does not matter if he did not have a tramatic brain injury, only that he feared for his life.

If the forensic evidence backs up his story that he was on his back, and fired at close range with a trajectory consistent with being straddled, AND he has some visible injuries (which I have no doubt that the police photographed), he will be able to argue that HE felt his life was in danger and had the right do defend himself with deadly force.

If the forensic evidence shows that he shot TM while they were both standing, or at a distance further than a foot or so, so while TM was on the ground and GZ was not, then I say lock him up for a long time.

I am paitently awaiting for further evidence, and if I dont get that until the trial, I am ok with that. I am merely a spectator.
Click to expand...

I want to comment on the part you bolded. Even if the forensic evidence backs up his story that GZ was on his back and fired at close range, etc..etc....It still doesn't mean that gave him the right to kill TM or defend himself with deadly force.

What if GZ pulled his gun on TM and was going to shoot him and THEN TM jumped on him to stand his own ground? There are parts of this story that keep getting glossed over, and once again, some are forgetting about the VICTIM in this case, and his rights to defend himself.

(I realize that you said "if" but I am just giving "ifs" on the other side-the side of the victim)
 
Phoenixfla said:
We all seem to be going around and around and I know we'll never see eye to eye, but it does not matter if he did not have a tramatic brain injury, only that he feared for his life.

If the forensic evidence backs up his story that he was on his back, and fired at close range with a trajectory consistent with being straddled, AND he has some visible injuries (which I have no doubt that the police photographed), he will be able to argue that HE felt his life was in danger and had the right do defend himself with deadly force.

If the forensic evidence shows that he shot TM while they were both standing, or at a distance further than a foot or so, so while TM was on the ground and GZ was not, then I say lock him up for a long time.

I am paitently awaiting for further evidence, and if I dont get that until the trial, I am ok with that. I am merely a spectator.
Click to expand...

I agree too. I think the fear some of us had is that this idea that George had a TBI would get taken up and run off with. It's important to go by facts we have so far and not to jump to conclusions. I know I groaned when this was first talked about because there was no proof he had a TBI. I think we just wanted to make sure this didn't become fact when there was no proof yet to support it's existence.

But you're right. We need to wait until trial and see what facts are presented then. I, too, am patiently waiting!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 202 more.
Total: 2,382 (members: 203, guests: 2,179)

Online statistics

Members online
203
Guests online
2,179
Total visitors
2,382
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
591,754
Messages
17,958,471
Members
228,603
Latest member
megalow
Back
Top