What evidence does the prosecution have?

vlpate · May 9, 2012

RANCH said:
Her testimony isn't very strong to me. She didn't see GZ pursuing Trayvon or who made physical contact first. JMO.

GZ says TM came up from behind and asked, "what's your f'ng problem", the g/f says she heard TM ask, "why are you following me". Somewhere in between is the truth. Either way, by definition, TM confronted GZ.

confront [kənˈfrʌnt]
vb (tr)
1. (usually foll by with) to present or face (with something), esp in order to accuse or criticize
2. to face boldly; oppose in hostility
3. to be face to face with; be in front of
4. to bring together for comparison

wishuwerehere · May 9, 2012

RANCH said:
Her testimony isn't very strong to me. She didn't see GZ pursuing Trayvon or who made physical contact first. JMO.

She did hear the initial contact between the two. This will just be the beginning of many audio witnesses in this case. Being that it was in fact dark outside, I'm not sure if there will be any reliable "eyewitnesses." I have a feeling audio will rule this case. And, of course, Trayvon's autospy report.

jmo

Karmady · May 9, 2012

Phoenixfla said:
I can respect that, but the jury won't be considering IF GZ killed TM, IMO what they will be considering is:

1) Is there evidence that GZ started the physical confrontation
(please note I did not state evidence of who started the physical confrontation, because IMO there are three conclusions the Jury can come to:
a)GZ started it
b)TM started it
c)They dont have enough evidence to determine started it.
My guess is c.

2) Was GZ in fear for his life when he used his gun.
My guess is that he was.

Agree. And re the bbm~ just want to add that he would not necessarily have to have been in fear for his life, just of bodily harm. Can't remember what the modifying word for the bodily harm is off the top of my head - serious, great, something like that. But something short of death, for sure. jmo

RANCH · May 9, 2012

wishuwerehere said:
She did hear the initial contact between the two. This will just be the beginning of may audio witnesses in this case. Being that it was in fact dark outside, I'm not sure if there will be any reliable "eyewitnesses." I have a feeling audio will rule this case. And, of course, Trayvon's autospy report.

jmo

What did she hear that would prove GZ was pursuing Trayvon when they made physical contact?

vlpate · May 9, 2012

wishuwerehere said:
However, pursuing with a loaded gun..., pursuing someone who was doing harm to no one..., pursuing someone who was not engaged in criminal activity... I do not believe Zimmerman's defense will raise reasonable doubt for a judge or a jury.

jmo

I don't think the prosecution will be able to make the case that GZ loaded his gun specifically to go find an a$$hole to kill that night. It has been said that he carried his gun almost all the time - which would make sense, otherwise, what is the point?

If I am following someone because I think they look familiar, and they turn around and say, "what the eff is your problem", and then punch me in the face and crawl on top of me, I am going to shoot, they don't even have to bang my head against the ground, I'll ask questions later. In Florida, I'm pretty sure I could successfully claim the SYG defense.

The prosecution surely does not have a case so weak that they are hanging their hat on the, at best, sketchy premise that GZ was following TM, and therefore, is guilty of 2nd degree murder.

JMO

wishuwerehere · May 9, 2012

RANCH said:
What did she hear that would prove GZ was pursuing Trayvon when they made physical contact?

Whatever it is, I believe it is a piece of the pie which is holding the prosecution's case together. IMO the girlfriend's testimony will not only entail the intial contact between the two, but the leading up to that event as well. I know many on this thread have said it's is only about "the fight." I totally disagree. The leading up to the initial contact will be key. It shows intent on Zimmerman's part, i.e, he's going to be the cop and detain his subject. His state of mind, i.e. he can't control himself to wait for the cops. What else can't Zimmerman control himself about?

jmo

tehcloser · May 9, 2012

vlpate said:
I don't think the prosecution will be able to make the case that GZ loaded his gun specifically to go find an a$$hole to kill that night. It has been said that he carried his gun almost all the time - which would make sense, otherwise, what is the point?

If I am following someone because I think they look familiar, and they turn around and say, "what the eff is your problem", and then punch me in the face and crawl on top of me, I am going to shoot, they don't even have to bang my head against the ground, I'll ask questions later. In Florida, I'm pretty sure I could successfully claim the SYG defense.

The prosecution surely does not have a case so weak that they are hanging their hat on the, at best, sketchy premise that GZ was following TM, and therefore, is guilty of 2nd degree murder.

JMO

But that's not what GZ was doing.

Phoenixfla · May 9, 2012

Karmady said:
Agree. And re the bbm~ just want to add that he would not necessarily have to have been in fear for his life, just of bodily harm. Can't remember what the modifying word for the bodily harm is off the top of my head - serious, great, something like that. But something short of death, for sure. jmo

Your right. Here is the language:

He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another

Phoenixfla · May 9, 2012

wishuwerehere said:
Whatever it is, I believe it is a piece of the pie which is holding the prosecution's case together. IMO the girlfriend's testimony will not only entail the intial contact between the two, but the leading up to that event as well. I know many on this thread have said it's is only about "the fight." I totally disagree. The leading up to the initial contact will be key. It shows intent on Zimmerman's part, i.e, he's going to be the cop and detain his subject. His state of mind, i.e. he can't control himself to wait for the cops. What else can't Zimmerman control himself about?

jmo

What part of her statement shows that he was trying to detain TM? I may change my mind if there is good evidence that GM tried to detain TM.

vlpate · May 9, 2012

tehcloser said:
But that's not what GZ was doing.

Not the point, the law is black and white - no gray areas. He was not following, watching, or pursuing him to kill him, IMO. The way I understand it, the prosecution will have to prove his motive was to kill TM in order to show depravity (correct word?). JMO and I could be wrong - bring on the lawyers!

wishuwerehere · May 9, 2012

vlpate said:
I don't think the prosecution will be able to make the case that GZ loaded his gun specifically to go find an a$$hole to kill that night. It has been said that he carried his gun almost all the time - which would make sense, otherwise, what is the point?

If I am following someone because I think they look familiar, and they turn around and say, "what the eff is your problem", and then punch me in the face and crawl on top of me, I am going to shoot, they don't even have to bang my head against the ground, I'll ask questions later. In Florida, I'm pretty sure I could successfully claim the SYG defense.

The prosecution surely does not have a case so weak that they are hanging their hat on the, at best, sketchy premise that GZ was following TM, and therefore, is guilty of 2nd degree murder.

JMO

It's obvious we're looking at this case from two different angles.

If I may assume, it seems you're looking at it as Zimmerman's story is credible.

I do not see Zimmerman's story as credible. I do believe the prosecution has a tougher job here than the defense, I'll give you that.

One of the reasons this case has grabbed me so much is because I can put myself in Trayvon's shoes and it scares the heliose out of me. Some overzealous nut can look at you, think you're suspicious, call the cops, and in the meantime follow and pursue you, confront you, and if you stand up for yourself verbally and/or run, he can hunt you down and shoot you and claim self defense. If Trayvon does not get justice here, I hope at least the SYG law will change so Trayvon's death will not be in vain.

jmo

Dr.Fessel · May 9, 2012

vlpate said:
The investigator was very ambiguous about this witness during the bond hearing, is her statement online somewhere? Is this the witness that was on CNN in shadows?

He fell backward, hitting his head, while running forward?

BEM: I'm assuming you mean by holding a gun on him?

Happens all the time, feet go out from under you and you hit your head.

wishuwerehere · May 9, 2012

Phoenixfla said:
What part of her statement shows that he was trying to detain TM? I may change my mind if there is good evidence that GM tried to detain TM.

I am not privy to her entire statement. I guess you won't be changing your mind, yet.

jmo

Phoenixfla · May 9, 2012

wishuwerehere said:
Whatever it is, I believe it is a piece of the pie which is holding the prosecution's case together. IMO the girlfriend's testimony will not only entail the intial contact between the two, but the leading up to that event as well. I know many on this thread have said it's is only about "the fight." I totally disagree. The leading up to the initial contact will be key. It shows intent on Zimmerman's part, i.e, he's going to be the cop and detain his subject. His state of mind, i.e. he can't control himself to wait for the cops. What else can't Zimmerman control himself about?

jmo

Here is what Crump said:

The lawyer, who took an affidavit from the girl, quotes the girl on the cellphone as saying that Trayvon was walking home from the store and had temporarily taken refuge from the rain. He then began walking again, when he tells her, according to Crump, "I think this dude is following me."

"She tells him, 'baby, be careful, just run home,' " Crump said.

According to the girl, Trayvon says, "I think I lost him" then moments later says, "He is right behind me again. I'm not going to run, I'm going to walk fast."

Crump said "she hears another voice, 'What are you doing around here?' Trayvon says, 'Why are you following me?' " At that point, according to the girl, Travyon is pushed and his voice changes.

"She hears the altercation, suddenly, someone just hit the phone, because that's the last she hears," Crump said. She did not hear the shooting.

One thing I can not figure out is how the GF knew that TM was pushed? Maybe what she heard was TM pushing GZ?

She goes on to say that TMs "voice changes", well she never relays to us what TM was saying when his voice changed. Musta said something to come to the conclusion that his voice changed.

ETA: And how does she know someone hit the phone? Maybe it fell out of his pocket, maybe the battery went dead, maybe the call was dropped for bad reception, maybe it got wet in the rain and shorted out. The phone being hit is only one possibility.

beach · May 9, 2012

OMG... doc dump day cannot come soon enough. :sigh:

AJ Noiter · May 9, 2012

wishuwerehere said:
Whatever it is, I believe it is a piece of the pie which is holding the prosecution's case together. IMO the girlfriend's testimony will not only entail the intial contact between the two, but the leading up to that event as well. I know many on this thread have said it's is only about "the fight." I totally disagree. The leading up to the initial contact will be key. It shows intent on Zimmerman's part, i.e, he's going to be the cop and detain his subject. His state of mind, i.e. he can't control himself to wait for the cops. What else can't Zimmerman control himself about?

jmo

I still believe she will not be called to testify. Her use was for probable cause only, otherwise why didn't they include more details or even a transcript of what she heard in the affidavit? All they stated was that "some friend was on the phone with him and he said he was scared about 4 minutes before the shooting." If she does testify, I don't see her testifying to much more than just that, "Travyon was scared about 4 minutes before he was shot." I could be wrong on both, and if I am, being that she's an ear witness she can't attest to the events that happen, only what she heard. What did she hear? Well, skipping over most of the conversation, she heard "Why are you following me?", "What are you doing here?", "Why are you fo-'hiccup'-llowing me" ... that "hiccup" is where she states that she thinks Mr. Martin was pushed. She can't testify to exactly what that was because she doesn't know, she just thinks that something happened.

However, as I stated in my first sentence, I don't believe she'll be called to testify because Investigator Gilbreath did state, as a matter of sworn fact, that he had no evidence to contradict Mr. Zimmerman's story regarding this. Why would he commit perjury?

* Time estimations are my own, with nothing reliable to back up the "4 minute" estimation that I gave. Example only, basically.

vlpate · May 9, 2012

wishuwerehere said:
It's obvious we're looking at this case from two different angles.

If I may assume, it seems you're looking at it as Zimmerman's story is credible.

I do not see Zimmerman's story as credible. I do believe the prosecution has a tougher job here than the defense, I'll give you that.

One of the reasons this case has grabbed me so much is because I can put myself in Trayvon's shoes and it scares the heliose out of me. Some overzealous nut can look at you, think you're suspicious, call the cops, and in the meantime follow and pursue you, confront you, and if you stand up for yourself verbally and/or run, he can hunt you down and shoot you and claim self defense. If Trayvon does not get justice here, I hope at lease the SYG law will change so Trayvon's death will not be in vain.

jmo

I find his story credible because it matches eye and ear witness statements, GZ's statements that we are aware of, and police reports. The prosecution has offered nothing in the way of evidence that conflicts with any of the above. Once the evidence comes out, I may find his story total bull, but as it stands, no way is this murder 2. IMO

What I don't find credible, because there is no proof, are the assumptions bolded above.

wishuwerehere · May 9, 2012

Phoenixfla said:
Here is what Crump said:

One thing I can not figure out is how the GF knew that TM was pushed? Maybe what she heard was TM pushing GZ?

She goes on to say that TMs "voice changes", well she never relays to us what TM was saying when his voice changed. Musta said something to come to the conclusion that his voice changed.

If Trayvon is the fearful one, I don't see it as reasonable as he's the one doing the pushing. If Zimmerman pushed Trayvon first I can see Trayvon trying to run and Zimmerman catching him, and then the wrestling/fighting ensues ending with Trayvon being shot dead.

As far as the "voice changes," maybe it has something do with fear.

jmo

Lovelymountains · May 9, 2012

zenreaper said:
Those who are in support of finding GZ guilty REFUSE to accept that it was not the WALKING that got TM shot, it was the ATTACKING that got him shot. GZ was not standing his ground or defending himself from a WALKER, he was defending himself from an ATTACKER.

So he says. I don't believe him.

Sun48shine · May 9, 2012

Dr.Fessel said:
Happens all the time, feet go out from under you and you hit your head.

It was raining that night. He could have slipped on something and fell backwards on his head. Just throwing this out there.

What evidence does the prosecution have?

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