Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #6

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SleuthyGal said:
I would hope, if I were ever to be labeled a 'sociopath,' it would be on the basis of some psychoanalytic examination over some period of time (in person) by a qualified professional and not based on snippets of video and/or rumors about my activities as seen by (and imagined by) armchair and uncredentialed lay folk.

That said, it must be pointed out that not everyone involved in a homicide is a sociopath, and not every sociopath commits crimes, let alone homicides. So using that label for AK and/or RS may be hyperbolic, at best. It does nothing to further the understanding of the evidence in this case, and it is that very evidence (some of it, anyway) that casts doubt on the assertion of guilt.
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This is a discussion board where such topics are not only appropriate but expected.

The accused is jailed and open to speculation according to TOS of WS.

All imo
 
otto said:
Scott Peterson celebrated Laci's life by trying to pick up the babysitter etc., Casey Anthony celebrated her daughter's life by hitting the clubs and getting a tattoo, etc. Amanda celebrated Meredith's life by smooching, sticking out her tongue, buying lingerie, flipping cartwheels at the police station, etc.

What do they have in common? They all grieve in a way that is unfamiliar to most people in the world.
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Are you suggesting that AK, who was MK's roommate for only 6 weeks, should have been grieving the same way as a spouse or a parent?!!
 
Jade said:
This is a discussion board where such topics are not only appropriate but expected.

The accused is jailed and open to speculation according to TOS of WS.

All imo
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Where did I say it was in violation of TOS of WS? I said if *I* were to be labeled in such a way *I* would hope that label wouldn't be based on rumors, conjecture, and things that might have nothing to do with who I really am. I'm speaking of myself here, in case that wasn't already plainly apparent.
 
Nova said:
If my comparison of "satanism" and "nonspecific and undiagnosed sociopathy" is not equivalent in the sense I listed, you should be able to show how and why they can not be compared. My point was that neither term is really an argument, nor is either an actual diagnosis; yet both are used as umbrella terms to justify all sorts of things for which there is no evidence. (Note: it may be possible to define and diagnose sociopathy concretely, but that has not happened in this case.)

It isn't my comparison that shuts down the discussion, it's the use of vague terms that justify everything and, therefore, actually explain nothing.

The rest of your post dealt with speculation that AK and/or RS somehow made a fetish of that particular kitchen knife, and I merely pointed out we have no evidence that such was the case. Yes, it's possible they kept their kinks to themselves, but it's equally possible that all the "kinkiness" ascribed to this case came from the imaginations of the lead investigator and the prosecutor (the latter having been recently convicted of improper conduct inspired by just such flights of imagination).
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The lack of comparisons is self evident.

There is no need to go off on a tangent to defend a comparison that is farfetched.
 
SleuthyGal said:
Would your (referring to those who feel AK & RS are evil or sociopaths or whatever term-du-jour is being used) feelings change about AK and RS if you found out they were completely innocent and had been railroaded in this case?

Would you still think them evil and sociopathic? Or is it the fact that they appear to be involved in this murder and declared guilty that garners this opinion (and the attendant feelings toward them)?

I'm really curious about this.

I see what appears to be a lot of hatred (for lack of a better descriptor) towards AK & RS, but whether it's because of the crime or it's separate from the crime is hard to tell.

I see compassion of a sort towards RG, which I also find curious. He apologized and it got his sentence reduced. It's not a stretch to surmise that the very reason he apologized could have been a strategy to get that sentence reduced, and yet I haven't read that anyone suggested such a thing.
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I have not described AK or RS as 'evil'... nor do I 'hate' them. IMO they just made a huuuuuggge mistake while not 'right' of mind in one way or another. Everything else has just been to cover up that fact. I see not the slightest hint that they have been 'railroaded'. I feel DISGUST only at the crime committed. I have NO 'compassion' for RG either since he was also a factor in the huge mistake.
The fast track trial was the only reason (except for the same ones given to AK and RS at their trial) that got his sentence reduced. Apologizing might have kept him from getting more, but was not the reason for less.
 
Nova said:
Frankly, SG, and while the term may have very precise meanings for professionals, among the media and general public the term "sociopath" is so overused I think it's become meaningless.
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It certainly isn’t a catch phase or a misuse of term by me when expressing my opinion.

It is complex and has implications throughout the justice system most practically when it comes to release of diagnosed individuals and perceptions of their rehabilitation.

It is important these disorders not be trivialized but understood by the general public both for their own safety and the safety of others.

Sweeping the disorders under the rug especially as they are becoming more defined and understood is counterproductive to protecting society.

To be dismissive of media and the general public for recognizing and referring to the disorders is an insult to all mental health professional who work to educate the public

All imo
 
Jade said:
The lack of comparisons is self evident.

There is no need to go off on a tangent to defend a comparison that is farfetched.
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RBBM: I am going to have to remember this sentence, as going off on tangents to defends far-fetched comparison seems to be a popular tactic which, I can only guess, is an attempt to deflect from evidence, and discourage people to use their common sense and look at the big picture.

Jade, I am really appreciating your input--thought-provoking :)
 
SleuthyGal said:
That's a good point. I think 'sociopath' has come to be equated with someone seen as 'evil.' So that may be interchangeable. Either way, it's not intended as a term of endearment, that's for sure! ;-)
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A sociopath is someone that lacks the ability to experience empathy; someone that does not experience normal emotional responses, not someone that is evil.
 
trillian said:
Are you suggesting that AK, who was MK's roommate for only 6 weeks, should have been grieving the same way as a spouse or a parent?!!
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It is Amanda that on occasionally described Meredith as her good friend.
 
otto said:
A sociopath is someone that lacks the ability to experience empathy; someone that does not experience normal emotional responses, not someone that is evil.
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The Definition of a Sociopath



Sociopaths have little regard for the feelings of others and manipulate others in order to get what they desire. The term "sociopath" is no longer used in psychology and psychiatry, and the disorder is now called "antisocial personality disorder." People who have this disorder often have no sense of right or wrong and many only receive treatment when forced to by the judicial system, an employer or family member. The disorder is relatively rare, with approximately 0.6 percent of Americans affected, according to the National Institute of Mental

Read more: The Definition of a Sociopath | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5067762_definition-sociopath.html#ixzz1DVVauoTk

Behavior

People who have antisocial personality disorder may engage is such risky behavior as violence, vandalism, theft, bullying and cruelty to animals. They are skilled liars and often quite good at conning other people. They may be aggressive and violent, but show no remorse if they hurt other people. Sociopaths often react impulsively, failing to consider how their actions could harm themselves or others. Many have no respect for authority and have a history of losing jobs and being expelled from school. Drug and alcohol problems are common in people with antisocial personality disorders

Read more: The Definition of a Sociopath | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5067762_definition-sociopath.html#ixzz1DVVr80YX
 
flourish said:
I've asked it before, and I'll ask it again: was she ever given a hair drug test?
How long do benzos (or its metabolites or other evidence of its use) stay in the hair?
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I answered this

90 days but has been known to stay in the hair for 25 years with just one drug use

not to my knowledge
 
trillian said:
How long should it take to get a false confession from a 20yr old college student interrogated in a language she didnt fully understand?

Have you ever been a smart yet naive 20yr old girl studying abroad? I have. Have you ever been intimidated into signing something that was not true? I have. I can easily see how it happened.
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Good question. Amanda is supposed to be an intelligent, well educated woman from a good, albeit divorced, family. She was in an Italian police station, and appears to have severely underestimated the seriousness of the situation. After stretching and doing gymnastics, she was told to "cut it out" and at 11:30 pm placed in a nearby room - not a room equipped for interrogation (video). From here, we are to believe that Amanda was swarmed by 10 or more police officers who were yelling at her and hitting her. In less than two hours, she came up with an elaborate story about Patrick, Meredith, her fear of Patrick, Patrick's infatuation with Meredith, the scream, how she stood in the kitchen covering her ears but did not run to the nearby door for help when hearing the scream, and ... did I miss anything?

Coerced confessions are typically situations where the details of the confession are fed by police to the accused. If police were feeding confession details to Amanda, why didn't they ensure that the story they gave her was consistent with the story from Raffaele, or coerce her into saying that she was involved in the actual attack - as that is certainly the police theory?

There was a recent report on CNN about the NC forensic lab problems, and one of the cases was about a man with the mental abilities of a 7 year old. It took 9 hours to get a confession from him ... and then it was little more than the authority writing a statement and having him sign it ... and he incorrectly spelled his name. If a man with the mental ability of a 7 year old can withstand coercion for 9 hours, how can someone like Amanda cave after less than 2?
 
otto said:
It is Amanda that on occasionally described Meredith as her good friend.
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Fine. So how much grieving is normal for a "good friend" of 6 weeks?

If she broke down in devastation each day, would that not seem odd given the short time they knew each other? There is just no way she had developed that type of emotional investment and heart-wrenching feelings of loss like that of a parent or close family and friends.

Kissing her own boyfriend? Normal. And probably a reassuring gensture to her. It seemed sweet. They were NOT making out or anything.

Buying underwear when you dont have any? Normal.

Sticking your tongue out? Well if she was doing it at MK's body or to the police you would have a point. otherwise, normal.

Cartwheels? Normal. You know, I was in a hospital recently in the waiting area for a few hours. The guy in the next row would get up, pace, and once got on the floor to do about 20 push ups. Other people were playing games. Sitting around waiting can be tough even when the circumstances are serious. Especially high energy people.

Perhaps you would rather her not kiss, not wear underwear, and not be allowed to release some energy while she waited. For me it is all normal. Not even inappropriate, as many people on both sides may think.
 
flourish said:
I don't understand what you mean by an "anti-AK" site? Is that a site dedicated to hating AK or are you referring to sites which support her guilty conviction?
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Maybe it's ones that do it under the guise of "In Memory of Meredith Kercher"
 
trillian said:
Fine. So how much grieving is normal for a "good friend" of 6 weeks?

If she broke down in devastation each day, would that not seem odd given the short time they knew each other? There is just no way she had developed that type of emotional investment and heart-wrenching feelings of loss like that of a parent or close family and friends.

Kissing her own boyfriend? Normal. And probably a reassuring gensture to her. It seemed sweet. They were NOT making out or anything.

Buying underwear when you dont have any? Normal.

Sticking your tongue out? Well if she was doing it at MK's body or to the police you would have a point. otherwise, normal.

Cartwheels? Normal. You know, I was in a hospital recently in the waiting area for a few hours. The guy in the next row would get up, pace, and once got on the floor to do about 20 push ups. Other people were playing games. Sitting around waiting can be tough even when the circumstances are serious. Especially high energy people.

Perhaps you would rather her not kiss, not wear underwear, and not be allowed to release some energy while she waited. For me it is all normal. Not even inappropriate, as many people on both sides may think.
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Either Amanda did not grieve the loss of her "good friend", or she grieved in a way not consistent with norms.

It's funny ... when you put it that way, there's nothing wrong with what Amanda was doing. Let's put it in context now:

Knox and her former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, both on trial for the murder, had "kissed and joked" at Perugia's police station, said Robyn Butterworth, 23. "There was laughter. She stuck her tongue out at Raffaele. They moved their chairs. She put her feet up on him, they were kissing and cuddling."

A second witness, Amy Frost, thought Knox had "gone crazy," as she waited with Sollecito and the English students to be interviewed by the police.

Both defendants deny the charges. Knox told investigators she returned from a night at Sollecito's flat in Perugia on 2 November 2007 to find Kercher's bedroom door locked and bloodstains in the bathroom, where she took a shower.

Knox did not enter Kercher's bedroom when the door was finally opened in the presence of the police, but Butterworth said that when a second British friend, Natalie Hayward, commented at the police station that she hoped Kercher had not suffered, Knox replied: "What do you think? She ****ing bled to death."

Ref: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/14/meredith-kercher-trial


Even Bremner tries to downplay Knox antics.

Accounts of Knox doing splits and cartwheels as she awaited questioning by the police are a distortion of the behavior of a teenager exhibiting restlessness, Bremner argues, and depictions of a hypersexualized relationship with her "on-again, off-again" boyfriend Sollecito have been overly dramatized.

Ref: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904571,00.html#ixzz1DVrEu8Ky
 
otto said:
It is Amanda that on occasionally described Meredith as her good friend.
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In all fairness MK could not testify whether or not she thought of her as a friend or not
 
Allusonz said:
Maybe it's ones that do it under the guise of "In Memory of Meredith Kercher"
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Meredith Kercher is the victim.

Raffaele Sollecito, Rudy Guede and Amanda Knox are the convicted murderers. Seeking justice for the victim is what sites like this are typically about ... but for some strange reason, perhaps because it's hard to believe that 20 year old women can commit murder, one of the murderers has been painted as a victim.
 
Allusonz said:
In all fairness MK could not testify whether or not she thought of her as a friend or not
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Why not? She had no problem describing the murder as "yucky"

"AMANDA KNOX yesterday startled the Italian court trying her for the murder of Meredith Kercher by saying the English student's death was “yucky, disgusting” and comparing it to crimes in CSI, the popular US television series"

"Knox said she considered Kercher a friend. Had she suffered for the death of her friend, Maresca asked? “Yes, I was very shocked.” Did she remember Kercher in her daily life? “Yes I remember her; but, in the end I knew her for a month, and first of all I’m trying to get on with my life.”


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6493655.ece
 
dgfred said:
So which is it??? The point was lack of ..... , was not the reason for the accusation against Patrick.

Lack of food?
Lack of sleep?
Lack of water?
Intimidation?
Coercion?
Naivety?
Confusion?
Pot haze?

Can't have 'em all... especially after only 2 hours.

Did you confess to being at a murder scene, allowing the killer into a cottage, then doing nothing to help your 'friend'???
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maybe none of them, maybe all of them

or maybe simply a translation issue with a text message
 
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