The Death Penalty and Canada

@otto;

While I agree with the philosophy of rehabilitation, I am not sold on the reality.

That said, I am not a proponent of the death penalty. I do not have a better answer for spending tax dollars on housing violent offenders on life sentences, but I still can't say I am on board with executing human beings, no matter how dangerous or evil.

I may change my heart on this one day. I have changed my stand on many topics as I have gotten older and seen more. But I don't think I will on this.

I think the legal system in the US, however is good. And, sure, it can be better. But I'd rather be tried here than in almost any other country, Canada excepted.

(I also dig Canada's healthcare ).

I have vacillated over the years on the DP. I was a teen when Steven Truscott was convicted and sentenced, and glad i was still alive to see him and others freed as innocent human beings.

Although I can feel hatred for the likes of LRM, i can never hate enough to wish they be killed by our government. I felt hatred for people who were responsible for my son's death, but i could never have wished them dead. Ironically, the person found most responsible for his death died a few years later. I did not feel anything ... no elation, no sadness, no triumph ... the end of that person's life did nothing to make me feel better about my son being gone. In fact, my thoughts were ... there is now another parent mourning the loss of their child.

My mom and I used to argue about the DP (she was ALWAYS against it). Through the years, i'm much more inclined to view it her way ... i would like to see them all banished to a remote location with no contact with our society. They would soon learn that unless they formed some type of government, made some rules, lived within them, they could not function in chaos. They end up realizing that people have to live and work together to have a properly functioning SOCIETY !! Think Devil's Island (mind you, I suggest something more along the lines of Northwest Territories ... much colder than Australia )
Anyway, that's all just wishful thinking.

In some way, Casey Anthony posted one thing that I agree with (paraphrased somewhat here):

"Why do people kill people to teach people who kill people that killing people is wrong?"

Animals kill the sick and weak. I like to think we are somewhat above that.

JMO

Does Canada have the Whole Life Tariff? Britain does and it's the same thing as life without parole.

Here's a canadian copkiller who's getting daytime furloughs:

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/21/hancox-murderer-gets-escorted-release

PHB said:

Canada doesn't even have LWOP, does it?

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"Parole is an option available to all offenders since Canada does not have a life sentence without parole option. The offender will have to spend a prescribed amount of time in custody, depending on the offence. For the vast majority of offences, that period is one third of the total sentence imposed.[3] Parole is not automatic. The parole board in deciding whether to grant parole must consider, first and foremost, the protection of the public; secondary considerations are reinegration, rehabiliation and compassion.[4] Eligibility for parole is between 10 and 25 years for murder and 7 years for other life sentences or indeterminate sentences."
Parole Board of Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
From Wickepedia however if LM can be declared a dangerous offender then his sentence will be indefinite like PB's is.
http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/prg/cor/tls/dod-eng.aspx

STANDREID said:

Does Canada have the Whole Life Tariff? Britain does and it's the same thing as life without parole.

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If we do it goes under a different name. Our criminal justice system is modeled after yours so we may. We have something called Dangerous Offender Status and if someone is sentenced as that, they have an indefinite sentence.
http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/prg/cor/tls/dod-eng.aspx

PHB said:

Thanks for the info, otto.
After some googling, I see Paul Bernardo got LWOP. I can't believe his wife only got 12 years, though. Michael Rafferty and Colonel Russel Williams, for example, are two murderers who would be on death row, or severing LWOP in the US (I don't follow Canadian crime much, those are the only two I know of). Both of them will be eligeble for parole after 25 years.
Yves "Apache" Trudeau would certaintly been a DP case in the US. He committed 43 murders for various Canadian biker gangs, turned state's evidence and was allowed to plead to 43 manslaughters, and served 9 years. When he was released, he was given a new identity, and a few years later he raped a little boy, for which he was given 4 more years. He has since been released.
I think a lot of Americans feel that Canada is "soft on crime". Whether or not that's a fair assessment, I don't know, what I listed above are only a few cases. Personaly, I would feel better knowing any of the above murderers would never be free again, be it DP or LWOP.

BTW sorry I derailed this thread, it's about the death penalty, not LWOP. I'll thow my $0.02 in: as long as we're executing the right person, I have no problem with the DP.

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A lot of Canadians agree that we're soft on crime. :banghead:

I know Canada will not normally extradite a person who is eligible for the death penalty but they did in the case of Charles Ng.

2012-06-23

Tory Sen. Patrick Brazeau has insinuated he would support reinstating the death penalty should Magnotta be found guilty of the charges against him. Do you side with Brazeau?

Yes 85%


No 15%

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/poll/index.html


Sounds good to me.

Luka Magnotta long ago left Planet Normal and he embarked on a path of attention seeking that became less normal, while allegedly becoming more sordid and evil. If he at some point decided he wanted to go down in history as one of Canada’s most hideous monsters, Magnotta, if found guilty, at a very young age will have fulfilled his expectation.

World-leading forensic psychologist Dr. Michael Stone recently joined our TV program to discuss where Magnotta ranks on this scale of depravity.

If found guilty of his crimes, he ranks right at the top — or bottom, depending on how you look at it — of Dr. Stone’s scale of depravity.

But I don’t want to dwell too long on Magnotta because that’s what he would want. I want to discuss what this says about us as a country.

I know Pierre Trudeau scored lots of political points decades ago when he said he wanted Canada to become a Just Society.

While some at the time simply dismissed it as a slogan, nobody is doing that today. Canada has become a just-perfect society for the Luka Magnottas of this world.

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http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/21/just-society-becomes-a-cruel-joke

But we must not stop there; Canada should look into reinstating the death penalty for planned and deliberate murders where there is clear, unambiguous evidence of guilt.

Some may argue death is too light a sentence for these criminals and a lifetime in prison is actually harsher.

But consider the cost of keeping such criminals alive.

Death may indeed be seen as an easy escape, but paying for their room and board for life is just as criminal.

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http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/21/reconsider-the-death-penalty

Older article....

OTTAWA - Two-thirds of Canadians support the death penalty, according to a recent poll, although less than half of the country wants the government to bring it back into Canadian law.

Capital punishment jumped back into the news last week when Prime Minister Stephen Harper said in an interview he supported the death penalty.

"I, personally, think there are times where capital punishment is appropriate," Harper told CBC, but insisted he had no plans to bring the measure back.

Parliament banned capital punishment in 1976.

Opposition parties slammed Harper's comments.

"If Mr. Harper is genuinely in favour of capital punishment, then he should say so and bring a bill to floor of the House of Commons," Liberal MP David McGuinty said.

It turns out such a bill would garner more support than Harper's Conservatives currently do in the polls.

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http://www.ottawasun.com/news/canada/2011/01/25/17031541.html

There are not many crimes that I feel merit capital punishment, I just don't feel an "eye for an eye" is the way that civilized society stays civilized. One of the few crimes I do feel merits capital punishment is the serial rape and molestation of young children; if you rob a child of their innocence and sense of safety security... Someone like Sandusky would meet my criteria for capital punishment.

STANDREID said:

I know Canada will not normally extradite a person who is eligible for the death penalty but they did in the case of Charles Ng.

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Yes indeed they did, and Charles Ng has been in California for 21 years, since extradition in 1991, and he was sentenced to death in 1999 iirc.

I am not for the death penalty, and Canada being soft on crime is debatable IMO, and is often cited around the world in such discussions related to Charles Ng and in that regard is an unfair criticism imo. I suggest a great book called Contempt of Court - The Betrayal of Justice in Canada that explains the "may be refused" codicil related to the death penalty being added to the Canada-US Extradition Treaty in 1976 by the US.

Exploring the topic of the death penalty and Canada, in relation to Luka, it makes me wonder at the cost differences in what has been spent on Charles NG per year since being sentenced to death, versus what would have been spent per year if he was incarcerated in Canada.

Ng was released early from Leavenworth in 1982. Between 82 and 85 it's estimated there were 11-25 torture murders by Ng and Leonard lake. Ng then fled to Canada and was arrested for his Cdn crimes in 1985, then had a 6 year extradition battle until he was sent to California in 1991. Then more legal battles until his trial in 1998 and then he was sentenced to death in 1999.

Ng still sits on death row. I had read the US costs were at about 10 million by the time of the trial, with 6.6 million for the extradition efforts alone ( http://crime.about.com/od/murder/p/ng2.htm ), and that the trial cost 20 million ( Charles Ng - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). No idea if those are accurate, or what the Canadian costs were. The costs since his death sentence in 1999 interest me if anyone has them.

Luka will obviously not be given a death penalty in Canada, but I believe he like Bernardo and others, will never step outside of prison JMO. Hard for me to say which would be "better", with all the factors involved, and what one feels would be "justice" as far as the consequences Luka will face. I know gut feelings of an eye for an eye come forth, and costs alone can't or shouldn't be a factor when considering the death penalty debate imo, but there can't be justice for innocent murdered Jun Lin and his poor family. Nothing could possibly done that would be justice for what happened. Of course all is JMO.

Sorry for the lengthy post, it's an important topic imo and I couldn't do my usual brief reply.

Some other countries don't have the death penalty either but I've heard that certain heinous criminals are sometimes shot while "trying to escape" or "killed by fellow inmates".

Hello all, new member. :seeya:

It was actually this thread that caught my attention while browsing forums on my iPhone the other day. I am Canadian and this entire case has been the subject of a lot of debate amongst the people I know, and it has brought back up the Death Penalty discussion again.

Personally, I don't agree with the Death Penalty. My view has absolutely nothing to do with the perpetrator's of the horrible crimes not deserving death, they most likely do deserve it. But my belief is that we, as a society, need to be above the actions (and morals) of the worse members of society. So I'm personally relieved that we don't have the death penalty option here.

What I do wish we would have is consecutive sentencing options, full life sentences that are real life sentences. (Yes I know Bernardo will never get out, but many others who didn't get his press probably will.). As a Canadian, I feel there is a lot about our criminal justice system that needs work and could be improved upon, but I don't think that reinstating the death penalty is the way to go. I just don't think it really makes any sense. From what I understand from my friends in America, and what I can read up on, it's more costly to keep someone on death row, and cost more to put someone to death than to simply imprison them for the rest of their lives. (I may be wrong on that, it's just my understanding) It does nothing to discourage others from murdering. It just doesn't really do what all the proponents of it claims it does.

It is simple retribution, nothing more. Again, to herald back to my original point, it's not about what it says about the condemned, it's about what it says about us.

I am another Canadian who feels that our criminal justice system is a joke. Punishments are not nearly harsh enough and conditions (for some) not harsh enough.

Russel Williams, Pickton, Bernardo and similar devils should be given the death penalty IMO. There is nothing to be gained by their continued life, and no hope of rehabilitating them. And no doubt of their guilt. They are drain on tax dollars and taking up space that at another person could use. I don't feel its "an eye for an eye".

Regarding Rafferty, Thomas Hurst, etc I think they should spend their lives in prison. I don't think the possibility of parole should exist for them. Although I am unsure about whether I think someone who has at least admitted his crime and acnowleged that it was wrong, should perhaps have a chance of parole (like Hurst). But the likes of Rafferty should spend their lives in a cage. After 25 years he will be plenty young enough to start a new life, and rape another child.

Hurst's case is near to my heart. I hope every day of his life in jail is a living nightmare.

airplanelamp said:

I am another Canadian who feels that our criminal justice system is a joke. Punishments are not nearly harsh enough and conditions (for some) not harsh enough.

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I don't know that I'd go so far as to call it a joke, but there are definitely many areas in which it can be improved upon. Sentencing guidelines definitely being one of them. This is one recent example where the sentence just does not fit the crime.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Ottawa+gets+years+brutal+attack/7221671/story.html#ixzz269sAbRuq

Russel Williams, Pickton, Bernardo and similar devils should be given the death penalty IMO. There is nothing to be gained by their continued life, and no hope of rehabilitating them. And no doubt of their guilt. They are drain on tax dollars and taking up space that at another person could use. I don't feel its "an eye for an eye".

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Respectfully, there are a lot of people that are drain on tax dollars, doesn't mean we should put them to death though. Don't misunderstand me, I completely get the sentiment. All of the above that you've mentioned I felt the urge to see harm come to them, anyone would, but, in my humble opinion, I think how we feel needs to be tempered before we act, particularly when that action reflects upon the whole of society.

Again that's my own take on it and I do understand and respect your point of view, I just don't quite agree with it.

FrayedKnot said:

@otto;

While I agree with the philosophy of rehabilitation, I am not sold on the reality.

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Like with all things, we need to "get them while they're young". That's where we stand the best chance of rehabilitating someone. It's really all about the intervention.

I think the legal system in the US, however is good. And, sure, it can be better. But I'd rather be tried here than in almost any other country, Canada excepted.

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I think the principles found in the legal system within both nations do not differ all that greatly, if at all. I would have every expectation of a 'fair trial' in Canada, the US, Great Britain.

(I also dig Canada's healthcare ).

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It's not all it's cracked up to be, lol.

IMHO the death penalty is no punishment really. so u kill the criminal? he suffers a few seconds, then hes dead. he gets off way to easy w/ the death penalty. now LWOP.....solitary confinement....thats REAL punishment if u ask me. mix in a daily dose of some sort of torture & that would be even better IMO!

airplanelamp said:

I am another Canadian who feels that our criminal justice system is a joke. Punishments are not nearly harsh enough and conditions (for some) not harsh enough.

Russel Williams, Pickton, Bernardo and similar devils should be given the death penalty IMO. There is nothing to be gained by their continued life, and no hope of rehabilitating them. And no doubt of their guilt. They are drain on tax dollars and taking up space that at another person could use. I don't feel its "an eye for an eye".

Regarding Rafferty, Thomas Hurst, etc I think they should spend their lives in prison. I don't think the possibility of parole should exist for them. Although I am unsure about whether I think someone who has at least admitted his crime and acnowleged that it was wrong, should perhaps have a chance of parole (like Hurst). But the likes of Rafferty should spend their lives in a cage. After 25 years he will be plenty young enough to start a new life, and rape another child.

Hurst's case is near to my heart. I hope every day of his life in jail is a living nightmare.

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JMO it's not a joke, and personally, I would put Rafferty in the same category as Bernardo, Pickton and Williams. JMO