RU - Putin foes the feminist punk band Pussy Riot jailed for six months after protest

[Walker]

Originally Posted by BritsKate

Maybe it's his 3rd term in office?

In lots of countries that is allowed. Remember all men are equal. So if the Russians decide that 3 terms is acceptable, then who are we to impose our opinion on them?

Or maybe the allegations of cronyism and corruption?

Allegations? Hillary Clinton was alleged by certain detractors to have murdered one of her former law partners. Russia is certainly not unique in having "allegations" directed at politicians. Allegations are not proved.

Perchance the declining health care standards or the highest rate of depopulation since Stalin?

Health care standards depend on the economy, and our health care standards are threatened by our poor economy, too.

Depopulation is a very serious issue, but Putin has supported aid to families who have children.

Perhaps Chekism has a bit to do with it? Maybe they just don't want someone with KGB ties in office anymore?

Maybe they do, and maybe they don't. Other people are our equals and they can well make up their own minds at the voting booth.

If you can manage I suggest reading some of what Andrey Illarianov has written since he resigned about Putin's Russia. Another resource I found particularly useful in my dogged pursuit for further knowledge is: http://www.freedomhouse.org/search/russia

I notice that you need to resort to sarcasm here.

What troubles me is that so many people will just mindlessly scoop up whatever memes that Soros feeds into the machine, that is, TV: Madonna = good; Putin = bad. To judge a politician, you really have to live in that country. As I said before, our only defense is critical thought. And, yes, the TV is sometimes wrong.

[Walker]

Originally Posted by wfgodot

Behind the assassins, the grim truth of Putin's Russia (Observer)

Vladimir Putin: A Potemkin election (Guardian)

Corruption, violence and vice have triumphed in Putin's Russia (Guardian)

Putin starts to ‘tighten the screws’ on foes: Protest leaders are swept into jail (Washington Times)

Putin’s regime takes "retaliatory” measures against supporters of Magnitsky legislation (Winnipeg Free Press)

et al.

UK media sources may have a anti-Russian strong bias because they want the US in a war with Syria and Iran, which is not in the interest of the American people. The UK media is controlled by Soros-types.

Maybe you could point out one specific grievance that stands out to you as significant.

The US should be a world leader; but being a leader doesn't not mean bullying people around. Leadership means trusting other people, respecting differences, and setting a good example.

Can we trust the Russians, who are our equals, to vote responsibly? Can we trust them to govern themselves? Can we trust all the other countries to govern themselves as well? Can we appreciate that each culture has unique differences; and that what Madonna thinks is cool may be grossly offensive to other people?

Can we be suspicious of the ilk of Soros, rich media moguls who have a financial interest in globalism and endless war? Can we question what the TV spouts?

Can we mind our own business? And, in minding our own business, won't our national security and financial prosperity actually be enhanced?

[BritsKate]

It is impossible to debate when the topic of the debate continues to change.

[BritsKate]

But Pussy Riot tells us a lot about how we see non-Western political dissent in the new media age, and could suggest a habit of mischaracterizing their grave mission in terms that feel more familiar but ultimately sell the dissidents short: youthful rebellion, rock and roll, damsels in distress.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...y-riot/261309/

With the eyes of Russia-watchers trained on Pussy Riot, the feminist punk performance-art group whose now-famous trio is bracing for a verdict over their iconoclastic performance at a Moscow cathedral, the plight of Artyom Savyolov has drawn little attention.

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-.../24677862.html

[mysterygirl]

Originally Posted by Walker

Yes, and I will repeat my question, can anyone clearly state any specific grievances either against Putin or the Church, or is it just like "well, Madonna says so ..."

No.

If you are looking for an itemized breakdown, I haven't seen it.

And I've read several articles about this subject.

I think you are expecting too much from Pussy Riot....on an intellectual level.
(wink)

What this does clear up is the protest in Houston last week.....women holding signs that said free speech, free pussy.

Because at that time I had no idea what they were doing.

[wishuwerehere]

Pussy Riot Closing Statements

http://nplusonemag.com/pussy-riot-closing-statements

Here, Pussy Riot explains where they stand. You either get it or you don't. No one here is asking anyone else to agree.

It's one thing if you can't see, it's another if you won't.

[mysterygirl]

Originally Posted by wishuwerehere

Pussy Riot Closing Statements

http://nplusonemag.com/pussy-riot-closing-statements

Here, Pussy Riot explains where they stand. You either get it or you don't. No one here is asking anyone else to agree.

It's one thing if you can't see, it's another if you won't.

Like i said. They want separation of church and state.

"After all, we still have a secular state, and any intersection of the religious and political spheres should be dealt with severely by our vigilant and critically minded society. "


"The so-called leading figures of our state stand in the Cathedral with righteous faces on, but, in their cunning, their sin is greater than our own."


They mostly rail against the state..............in long winded, wordy statements.

I get it.

But these statements are difficult to read............they really need to work on presenting their case ............and putting forth some concise goals.

[wishuwerehere]

Originally Posted by mysterygirl

Like i said. They want separation of church and state.

"After all, we still have a secular state, and any intersection of the religious and political spheres should be dealt with severely by our vigilant and critically minded society. "


"The so-called leading figures of our state stand in the Cathedral with righteous faces on, but, in their cunning, their sin is greater than our own."


They mostly rail against the state..............in long winded, wordy statements.

I get it.

But these statements are difficult to read............they really need to work on presenting their case ............and putting forth some concise goals.

Pussy Riot protested exactly the way they wanted to. That’s the whole point. It was a punk protest. It’s not supposed to fit into your ideals, or mine, it’s meant to challenge those ideals. Mission accomplished.

[Walker]

Originally Posted by mysterygirl

No.

If you are looking for an itemized breakdown, I haven't seen it.

And I've read several articles about this subject.

I think you are expecting too much from Pussy Riot....on an intellectual level.
(wink)

What this does clear up is the protest in Houston last week.....women holding signs that said free speech, free pussy.

Because at that time I had no idea what they were doing.

Hopefully, people are aware that the Russian Orthodox Church is not a state religion. The Russian government is already strictly secular.

The problem is that Pussy Riot didn't even come up with one specific demand, which is similar to the Occupy movement in the US of last year. This circumstance is very suspicious. That is why in my opinion Soros is at the root.

Some French women were protesting the sentence with signs that read "Free Riot." According to my high school French teacher, the French translation of "pussy" is considered socially unacceptable, (not that the word is considered polite in the US either). Does the group actually just embarrass people who might otherwise support them on certain issues?


You have to actually live in a country to judge the government.

We certainly wouldn’t like some other nation deciding that our president is “evil” or “despotic” and then deciding to “liberate us.” No, our response would be “just leave us alone, we can handle it.”

Similarly, no matter how much we read, the difference in language and culture makes the situation unclear. Americans tend to flatter ourselves too much on our supposed understanding and toleration other cultures; yet look how quickly we make value judgments. If violating private property rights and harassing worshippers is taboo enough to warrant a 2-year prison sentence in the Russian culture, we should just accept that fact. They don’t ask us to live by their rules; nor should we ask them to live by ours.

[Plus, I have no knowledge of the Russian legal system, but eventually reducing this sentence would seem to be a strong political move. In my opinion,: with good behavior, they won’t end up serving the full term. ]

In some ways, the Russian society actually seems far more tolerant than ours.

For example, Pussy Riot’s previous performances garnered little attention from either the public or the police.

The same link I posted previously, with the Optar flag: Note that hardly anyone seems to notice them. The small crowd shows no interest in their performance.

Pussy Riot на Кра�ной площади - пе�н� "Путин за��ал" - YouTube

Pussy Riot на Кра�ной площади - пе�н� "Путин за��ал" - YouTube

More examples:

http://music.yahoo.com/news/anti-put...080658337.html

Among the group's most noted outrageous acts was the drawing of an enormous phallus on a drawbridge in St. Petersburg. Tolokonnikova was among the participants in a 2008 obscene "fertility rite" at Moscow museum, mocking Dmitry Medvedev, who was elected Russian president the next day. Alekhina released a video for the group in which she masturbated in a grocery store with a chicken leg.

If they behaved this way in the US, they would likely be taken by police to a psychiatric hospital for evaluation.

[mysterygirl]

Originally Posted by wishuwerehere

Pussy Riot protested exactly the way they wanted to. That’s the whole point. It was a punk protest. It’s not supposed to fit into your ideals, or mine, it’s meant to challenge those ideals. Mission accomplished.

I'm not sure where you are going with this post. Defensive?



I took your link and actually read it...........stating my opinion on it.


I don't expect some Russian punk band to fit into my ideals or yours.

But I found those final statements to be odd.............jumping all over the place like an acid trip.

I do find it amusing that people blindly support them without having the faintest clue what they are protesting besides "free speech".

If they accomplished their own personal mission........good for them.

It's not my culture or my country...........so I can only base my opinion on what I read.

[mysterygirl]

Originally Posted by Walker

Hopefully, people are aware that the Russian Orthodox Church is not a state religion. The Russian government is already strictly secular.

The problem is that Pussy Riot didn't even come up with one specific demand, which is similar to the Occupy movement in the US of last year. This circumstance is very suspicious. That is why in my opinion Soros is at the root.

Some French women were protesting the sentence with signs that read "Free Riot." According to my high school French teacher, the French translation of "pussy" is considered socially unacceptable, (not that the word is considered polite in the US either). Does the group actually just embarrass people who might otherwise support them on certain issues?


You have to actually live in a country to judge the government.

We certainly wouldn’t like some other nation deciding that our president is “evil” or “despotic” and then deciding to “liberate us.” No, our response would be “just leave us alone, we can handle it.”

Similarly, no matter how much we read, the difference in language and culture makes the situation unclear. Americans tend to flatter ourselves too much on our supposed understanding and toleration other cultures; yet look how quickly we make value judgments. If violating private property rights and harassing worshippers is taboo enough to warrant a 2-year prison sentence in the Russian culture, we should just accept that fact. They don’t ask us to live by their rules; nor should we ask them to live by ours.

[Plus, I have no knowledge of the Russian legal system, but eventually reducing this sentence would seem to be a strong political move. In my opinion,: with good behavior, they won’t end up serving the full term. ]

In some ways, the Russian society actually seems far more tolerant than ours.

For example, Pussy Riot’s previous performances garnered little attention from either the public or the police.

The same link I posted previously, with the Optar flag: Note that hardly anyone seems to notice them. The small crowd shows no interest in their performance.

Pussy Riot на Кра�ной площади - пе�н� "Путин за��ал" - YouTube

More examples:

http://music.yahoo.com/news/anti-put...080658337.html



If they behaved this way in the US, they would likely be taken by police to a psychiatric hospital for evaluation.

OH my God with the chicken leg thing.

I see your points.

A protest should have a clear message..........and a statement or a declaration of what you want. What is the goal?

Otherwise the protest won't be very effective.

And while they brought this church into it............it was mainly just a rail against the state.

Meanwhile, Madonna desperately tries to be relevant........one boob and swastika at a time.

I have no idea if Soros is involved in this....wouldn't surprise me.

[wfgodot]

The QI Elves ‏@qikipedia
New game: ‘Angry Kremlins’. Like ‘Angry Birds' but you fire Putins at Pussy Rioters

http://www.imepilt.com/angry-kremlins/

[Pensfan]

Originally Posted by wfgodot

The "long persecuted Russian Orthodox Church" actively supported Putin's candidacy and was, in time past, a force of power against those who protested against the manifest unfairness and brutality of the czars.

bbm
(Respectfully stated) Sorry, no. The Russian Orthodox Church is the one that has been persecuted for centuries.

After the Russian Revolution, the newly established Soviet government nationalized all churches, monasteries and seized all church-held lands and funds. These administrative measures were followed by brutal state-sanctioned persecutions that included the wholesale destruction of churches, as well as the arrest and execution of THOUSANDS OF PRIESTS. The Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church (before he was executed) declared his satellite churches to be autonomous (The Orthodox Church of American and the Orthodox Church of Japan).

After killing the Patriarch (the elected leader of the Church), the Soviet government appointed a new "fake" Patriarch. Then, nearly all of its clergy and many of its believers were shot or sent to labor camps. Theological schools were closed and religious publications were declared to be illegal.

In the time between 1927 and 1940, the number of Orthodox Churches in the Russian Republic fell from 29,584 to less than 500.

Between 1917 and 1935, 130,000 Orthodox priests were arrested. Of these, 95,000 were executed. (That's 3/4 of all the priests.) The purge of the clerics and the Christians continued through the 1970s.

The Soviet government placed KGB clergy in the few remaining churches. Surviving real priests held Divine Liturgy, performed baptisms, weddings and funerals in secret like the catacomb services of the New Testament.

In the early 1990s, the tension between the Church and the government began to ease.

Pensfan
Russian Orthodox Christian

[wfgodot]

Yes, I understand that, under the Soviet regime, the Church faced hellish persecution. No one debates that fact. However, I was speaking of - as was clear from what I wrote - the Church's role in czarist times. As hideous as they were - and they were hideous - the punishments meted out to the Church in the 20th century were not a matter of whim; they were reprisals, albeit ones which should be roundly condemned, and never repeated. Nor should totalitarian regimes ever again hold sway.

[Pensfan]

The overwhelming majority of the Czars were not friendly to the Church. The Church was the Czars' puppet since Peter I (1700s).

When Czar Nicholas II abdicated the throne in 1917, finally the Church was free of the monarchy's hold which had held it for centuries. In August of that year, the priests elected their first Patriarch in centuries (not one appointed by the Czar). (This Patriarch was later executed by Soviet officials.) Czars believed religion was to be the base of their prosperity and the strongest supporter of their throne. This was not the belief of the Church.

On the topic of Pussy Riot, the ROC asked for leniency in their sentencing. The Church's request was clearly not taken into consideration.

[wishuwerehere]

A Rioter’s Prayer – Echo of Moscow Interviews Yekaterina Samutsevich

http://99getsmart.com/?p=5356

On October 10, 2012, an appellate court in Moscow announced the conditional release of Pussy Riot’s Yekaterina Samutsevich, the punk rock dissident imprisoned alongside band members Nadezhda Tolokonnikova and Maria Alyokhina for charges of “hooliganism motivated by religious hatred.”
…

Two days after her release, Katya gave an interview to the Russian radio station Echo of Moscow, a bastion of independent journalism increasingly coming under the control of Gazprom Media, a subsidiary of the partly state-owned natural gas company. Fielding the questions of some skeptical Russian listeners, Katya discusses Putin’s fueling of national resentments, the tactics of protest, and the future of Pussy Riot.
…

Yekaterina Samutsevich: Above all to those who still have the idea that our action was aimed at religious beliefs: it isn’t true. We didn’t want to injure anyone. We respect all religions and believers. Our action was purely political. We tried to draw attention to issues in society, to the issue of the connection between the power of the Orthodox Church and the power of the State. I think that we were successful. Society is now aware of the problem, and the rest of the world is too. The trial revealed power’s disproportionate reaction. It showed that our government lacks the wisdom to respond in a decent manner.

Complete interview at link.