CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #2

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
Morgan's Father said:
Hi just what we've been told so far, Amitrityline metabolizes into nortriptyline, If you are taking the drug regularly then expect to see the levels of the two close to even. If it is a large one time then the nortriptyline will be much less than the level of the Amitriptyline as the body is shutting down and ceasing to metabolize. In the first tox reports the forensic pathologist blamed postmortem redistribution for the high numbers and prepared a page explaining that it was an insignificant amount for Toni and I to take to Doctors we visited for their opinion. Before long we had complete agreement from experts asked to weigh in that this was a massive dose. AIT labs did the original Tox and told Toni it was not the largest but certainly one of the largest numbers they had ever seen. This was from blood. the second test of her gastric contents also detected Amitriptyline but also flexeril and two other date rape compounds that were detected but a final number was not registered as the sample was exhausted. The test was done without our knowledge so its disheartening that now it has been used up with only half of the answers. A Forensic Toxicologist is being lined up to interpret what we have so far and he will be the best opinion.
Click to expand...
BBM. (Bolded By Me)

No words. I'm so sorry. But don't give up (and I know you 2 won't).
 
MayraMM said:
I'm not Cat, obviously, but I'd like to answer anyway. In a standard autopsy, especially an unwitnessed death of a young person, the external exam is vital. A good pathologist will even use magnifying glasses to look for puncture wounds. That's why paramedics and doctors leave IV lines and other invasive procedure equipment in, so the pathologist will know what caused that particular puncture hole, for instance. A needle mark should have been caught, especially since we're talking about a large needle to administer all that medication. But, TI is claiming incompetence by the original ME and unless there were a lot of pictures taken, it's too late to check for needle marks by the second opinion doc.
Click to expand...
While I agree, and while I've seen that practiced in all the autopsies I've been to, and while I have witnessed two unattended death autopsies (one which used illumination and magnifying techniques), I don't think anyone would say that this was a good autopsy, and that external examination might've been cursory at best.

I'm soooo hoping that there were photos taken, and that they are part of the record the Ingrams can get ahold of...but I wouldn't be surprised if there were no photos taken.

Best-
Herding Cats
 
twinkiesmom said:
Per Morganingram.com, the first 7 weeks are pretty constant...so around Day 56 is when this gets escalated to a felony case...We will have to see what develops at that point.

I don't think it can be proven that the ami came from her home based on the the concentration in her body, nor can the flexoril be traced to her home.

If this is a stalker homicide, I find it intriguing that it may have taken some degree of sophistication to come up with the ami + flexoril combination. These compounds have similar chemical structures (both tricyclics) and one of the liver enzyme that breaks down ami also contributes to breaking down the flexoril. Was this genius levels of evil, or was google simply his/her friend?

http://www.drugs.com/monograph/flexeril.html
"Warnings
Similarity to Tricyclic Antidepressants
Shares the toxic potentials of tricyclic antidepressants; observe the usual precautions associated with tricyclic antidepressant therapy."

http://www.drugs.com/pro/flexeril.html
"Warnings
Cyclobenzaprine is closely related to the tricyclic antidepressants, e.g., amitriptyline and imipramine. In short term studies for indications other than muscle spasm associated with acute musculoskeletal conditions, and usually at doses somewhat greater than those recommended for skeletal muscle spasm, some of the more serious central nervous system reactions noted with the tricyclic antidepressants have occurred (see WARNINGS, below, and ADVERSE REACTIONS).

Tricyclic antidepressants have been reported to produce arrhythmias, sinus tachycardia, prolongation of the conduction time leading to myocardial infarction and stroke."

Alternatively, if homicide wasn't the intention, it could have been pure stupidity that resulted in either this combination that was chosen or the large dose of ami given to this girl.

Or alternatively, M could have had a genetic predisposition to be a CYP2D6 poor metabolizer (see http://www.drugs.com/pro/amitriptyline.html), making her more sensitive to either of these drugs or potentially the combination.
Click to expand...

the Arrhythmia was suspected at UCLA right from the first time they saw the case. Before the Amitriptyline levels were fully understood. Dr. Doberson (2nd pathologist, 1st ME or MD for that matter) suspected liquid most likely and injection less likely. 2 Vets from the immediate area have contacted us after reading the Blog and say the have both the liquid Amitriptyline for horses, and flexeril, also for horses. Small portion of either would be fatal. They used to be pretty "free" with both but now vow to keep under lock and key and dispense far more carefully. That's 2 vets out of probably 20. In pill form it is a long shot, > 100 pills and death long before they are digested for Amitriptyline alone. I'm sure you've all noticed how none of the other drugs are even mentioned.
 
I've been following along with you all and am just as baffled. Posting to welcome Morgan's Dad and to send him my heartfelt condelences. It's evident to me how special Morgan was- her light shines through in all her pictures. What a beautiful, amazing soul.

I hope you know that while there may be a differing of opinions in what took place exactly, we all care about finding the truth for you and your family. For Morgan. Thank you for sharing your story and her with us.
 
Herding Cats said:
Depends on how closely they looked. There are a lot of places that someone can put an injection and it not be glaringly InYourFace kind of visible marks.

Mayra brings up the concept of a wide open IV, which (in her thought) would also account for the pulmonary edema. My primary issue with that would be if they used a gauge of needle large enough to bolus a half or full liter infused with ami, there would likely be a pretty clear IV site, especially if using an 18 or 16 gauge needle.

I am more inclined to think that (if I'm even right in the first place) a needle filled with liquid ami, or worse, compounded ami from pills (which would be able to be got on the street), in a high enough concentration that it wouldn't need a huge needle, and wouldn't leave a clear enough marking, especially if the needle was jammed in deeply enough to obscure any subcutaneous bolus.

As an RN, I am very careful when giving shots, as they can hurt, and if done deeply, can affect the bone.

Another thought I had was that if Morgan fought hard enough to rip a few nails off, and the coroner didn't notice *that*, then he likely wouldn't have noticed a smaller gauge needle mark, or, shoot, even an expertly placed IV wouldn't leave a large mark.

And to be honest, I believe that the pulmonary edema might've been caused by a fatal arrythmia in the left side of her heart, which could have been easily caused by an overdose of ami. Cardiac arrythmias are noted sequelae of ami od, so I'm thinking that's what caused the edema.

Best-
Herding Cats
Click to expand...

Z-tract, right?
 
JBean said:
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT
This is a good time to remind everyone about being verified as a professional in a certain area. If you are not verified- please take the time to become verified- it is super easy and confidential. We welcome professionals! Really helps to add weight to your posts.

if you choose not be verified- please link up your information when you post.
Sorry to be such a rule pusher but that's what they pay me the really,really big bucks for.

Here is everything you all need to know:
Professional Posters
Click to expand...

Mr I here is the link for you. I do hope you get verified and stick around.Maybe we can help each other figure this out This case is bizarre and many unanswered questions but everyone here want answers for your family and if Morgan was murdered we want justice.
 
Morgan's Father said:
Hi just what we've been told so far, Amitrityline metabolizes into nortriptyline, If you are taking the drug regularly then expect to see the levels of the two close to even. If it is a large one time then the nortriptyline will be much less than the level of the Amitriptyline as the body is shutting down and ceasing to metabolize. In the first tox reports the forensic pathologist blamed postmortem redistribution for the high numbers and prepared a page explaining that it was an insignificant amount for Toni and I to take to Doctors we visited for their opinion. Before long we had complete agreement from experts asked to weigh in that this was a massive dose. AIT labs did the original Tox and told Toni it was not the largest but certainly one of the largest numbers they had ever seen. This was from blood. the second test of her gastric contents also detected Amitriptyline but also flexeril and two other date rape compounds that were detected but a final number was not registered as the sample was exhausted. The test was done without our knowledge so its disheartening that now it has been used up with only half of the answers. A Forensic Toxicologist is being lined up to interpret what we have so far and he will be the best opinion.
Click to expand...

Brilliant move, <modsnip>. Would you be willing to share the other two date rape substances (name) that was found?

And I agree - when there is a level comparison with the Ami and the nortrip, it would indicate regular use and good metabolism of the drug. However, in what Twinkie'sMom posted and what I researched, the 2:1 (give or take) would indicate that it was "acute", meaning sudden, poisoning, and not related to regular use.

And I find that the ami being in her gastric contents to be interesting. It would indicate consumption, indeed. The question remains if it was voluntary or not, but I believe that it was not voluntary. I can't imagine the number of pills one would have to take to achieve those numbers is reasonable, especially with no fragments. The dose is too high, in other words, and the body would have shut down too fast, for it to be a pill consumptive event.

Thanks so much for coming here, <modsnip>. I know how hard this must be for you, but maybe we all can make a difference to Morgan, and to you.

Best-
Herding Cats
 
Morgan's Father said:
the Arrhythmia was suspected at UCLA right from the first time they saw the case. Before the Amitriptyline levels were fully understood. Dr. Doberson (2nd pathologist, 1st ME or MD for that matter) suspected liquid most likely and injection less likely. 2 Vets from the immediate area have contacted us after reading the Blog and say the have both the liquid Amitriptyline for horses, and flexeril, also for horses. Small portion of either would be fatal. They used to be pretty "free" with both but now vow to keep under lock and key and dispense far more carefully. That's 2 vets out of probably 20. In pill form it is a long shot, > 100 pills and death long before they are digested for Amitriptyline alone. I'm sure you've all noticed how none of the other drugs are even mentioned.
Click to expand...

Did these vets say if local stables might keep those medication on the premises, and if so, which ones? Hopefully the contacted LE with the same information.
 
My theory all along has been the meds came from the horse farm. I just dont know how they got in Morgans system.
 
bearx said:
I can think of a few reasons why LE wouldn't react to the camera. Maybe they saw the glow when they drove up but knew what it was (hunting community it appears) and saw no need to stare at it?

Speaking of that, we don't know how LE looked when they walked to the house. We've only see photos of them walking away. Maybe when they were facing the house they glanced at it.

Porch light could also be it- or they just didn't look- saw the red glow from a distance and didn't think to stare at it up close after that- were more focused on looking in the bushes- who knows, really?
Click to expand...

Our custom was to walk the officers to the porch and then turn off the light after they had left. Can't be sure exactly what the cast was that evening but probably that is what we did this time. Wild to think as we were walking back to bed, stalker was coming out to watch officers leaving. Enhancement of the face in the photo has never been very successful, but the toolbelt reflection in window was spotted early on.
 
ATasteOfHoney said:
Z-tract, right?
Click to expand...

Depends on the substance I'm injecting, but yes, Ztrack for a whole lot of IMs. It's better, safer, and more comfortable for the patient (although in some cases, Ztrack is contraindicated. Never understood why, though...)

Best-
Herding Cats
 
Welcome <modsnip>.
I don't have much to add to the conversation , just reading along with these brilliant minds. But I wanted you to know that you and your wife are in my prayers and I hope you are able to find peace from all of this.
 
NancyA said:
Thanks for that. Guess that might answer anyone who was wondering if the family were reading here.

And I have to say I'm just as wildly impressed as anyone else with all the knowledgeable medical folks here, I can't make head nor tail of the math or the technical talk but it's reassuring to be surrounded by so many who can explain it all so expertly to us. Thanks so much to all!!!
Click to expand...

I was invited to stop by and I'm picking my way seeing where I can answer a question or two. You are so right about the medical complexity. An internist I think is quite brilliant set out to answer it all in simple terms for me and fifteen minutes later was saying, wow this gets very complex in a hurry! Kudos to anyone that can figure it out correctly. Even our experts don't completely agree but there is a complete consensus the the Amitriptyline is what killed her and it was a very large, one time dose.
 
Hey Guys - please remember that we address posters by their "user hat" unless the poster has indicated otherwise.

We respect every member's anonimity.

Thanks,

Salem
 
So Morgan's killer had to have knowledge about the effects of these drugs, also they would have to have knowledge that they were kept there and not locked up. What I'm trying to say, if it were me, no way would I know what drug to give someone....when you search google for drugs there is a host of them to choose from. Why those drugs out of many others?

Would the horse ranch release information to the family or the family's investigator on just who was employed there at the time?

I heard rumor that one person who lived in the neighborhood worked there...could this person have brought some home, maybe to sell or use the following day, or even that is the suspect. Man or man.

This is so gut wrenching! CBI should open an internal investigation on the coroner's office and LE. I know that is going to be almost impossible to do. Who is on these local police department's internal affairs? Are they buddy buddy with the chief?
 
Morgan's Father said:
the Arrhythmia was suspected at UCLA right from the first time they saw the case. Before the Amitriptyline levels were fully understood. Dr. Doberson (2nd pathologist, 1st ME or MD for that matter) suspected liquid most likely and injection less likely. 2 Vets from the immediate area have contacted us after reading the Blog and say the have both the liquid Amitriptyline for horses, and flexeril, also for horses. Small portion of either would be fatal. They used to be pretty "free" with both but now vow to keep under lock and key and dispense far more carefully. That's 2 vets out of probably 20. In pill form it is a long shot, > 100 pills and death long before they are digested for Amitriptyline alone. I'm sure you've all noticed how none of the other drugs are even mentioned.
Click to expand...

As I said in an earlier post, I've been around horses for a long while, own two TBs, and I've never seen vets use the ami or the flexeril. But that doesn't mean it can't be used, or isn't used...just that I haven't seen it. And different areas of the country have different trends in medication use, both for humans and for those critters we care for. So I'm not surprised.

The part that I'm having difficulty is choosing between swallowing and injection. Unless the med is highly concentrated (and I haven't found one that is concentrated enough, but I don't have access to lots of databanks), I would think that the taste would trigger the vomit reflex, and she would not have been able to keep it down.

Was there any indication of aspiration of stomach contents? Any indication at all? I'm wondering if someone held her mouth closed, and she vomited, and perhaps inhaled some of the vomitus, which might've contributed to the edema.

however, I do believe that the arrhythmia would have caused the edema...it's something which is known to happen with ami overdoses, and it would indeed create fluid retention/buildup/edema in the lungs if it was left sided failure/arrhythmia.

And thanks for the comment about the shadows in the camera. It helps to know that the light was on for LE, but clicked off (which would also have signaled the stalker it was "safe" to come out) before he moved into range.

And just as an aside, my Newf Grace sends her love to you all, especially Tessi and Wylah and Mogwai.

Best-
Herding Cats
 
Morgan's Father said:
Our custom was to walk the officers to the porch and then turn off the light after they had left. Can't be sure exactly what the cast was that evening but probably that is what we did this time. Wild to think as we were walking back to bed, stalker was coming out to watch officers leaving. Enhancement of the face in the photo has never been very successful, but the toolbelt reflection in window was spotted early on.
Click to expand...
My heart breaks for you, Toni and rest of family, as well as Morgan's friends. :heart:

I can't speak for all WSers...but it's a safe bet that we've all been touched by Morgan.

I thank you and Toni for putting out the blog. Otherwise, I don't think I would have heard about Morgan.
 
Salem said:
Hey Guys - please remember that we address posters by their "user hat" unless the poster has indicated otherwise.

We respect every member's anonimity.

Thanks,

Salem
Click to expand...

Oh shoot, I forgot. Did you (modsnip) my post, or should I go back and edit?

Sorry, MorgansFather...

Best-
Herding Cats

ETA: Salem, you're quick! Thanks!
 
Wait a minute: *light bulb on* M mentioned to her mother the night before IIRC that she thought she was coming down with a cold. Would she have drank orange juice? That would mask the taste of the drug correct, HC?
 
ATasteOfHoney said:
And just to add this: *neither* compound (Amitriptyline and/or Nortriptyline)are used for horses. Ami can be used for cats but rx at much lower doses.
Click to expand...

Elavil (amitriptyline) is absolutely used for horses. This has been confirmed by two very local Vets that stock liquid elavil. It is banned from race tracks, but not in the pleasure horse use. Same goes for flexeril. I haven't actually gone through with a purchase but it can be bought online out of Canada for $30.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 82 more.
Total: 3,786 (members: 83, guests: 3,703)

Online statistics

Members online
83
Guests online
3,703
Total visitors
3,786
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
591,529
Messages
17,953,947
Members
228,522
Latest member
Cabinsleuth
Back
Top