The cries for help

Gin said:

I am hoping they have technology that proves it's Trayvon. Those screams sound to me like a young person who's in terrible, terrible fear for his life. I don't believe for one second someone who has gun full 'o hollow point bullets would choose "screaming" over pulling the trigger.

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Without something to compare the screams to, technology capable or not, they can't say it WAS Mr. Martin. They can only give an estimation that it wasn't Mr. Zimmerman.

Edit: Also, as a carrier I can tell you that I would do everything in my power before I decided to draw my weapon. We are not "gun slingin" outlaws who shoot to kill then blow on the barrel of our guns before re-holstering.

Velouria said:

BBM

But how do we know that Serino is lying, and was not misquoted instead?

After all, hasn't it been stated on this forum that there have been numerous instances of shoddy reporting in this case?

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Because Crump said he was lying?

So, it's either one of two things. Either Crump is right and Serino is lying on what Tracey Martin initially said, which is a whole other can of worms that goes way beyond George Zimmerman or TM really did initially say that, Crump found out and has to fix that statement because putting doubt into the cries also potentially puts doubt in the minds of the public.

This is why I really want to know if Serino thought GZ was initially guilty, if that's the truth. The article says there was an affidavit filed, which means there is a record somewhere.

AJ Noiter said:

Without something to compare the screams to, technology capable or not, they can't say it WAS Mr. Martin. They can only give an estimation that it wasn't Mr. Zimmerman.

Edit: Also, as a carrier I can tell you that I would do everything in my power before I decided to draw my weapon. We are not "gun slingin" outlaws who shoot to kill then blow on the barrel of our guns before re-holstering.

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I agree whole heartedly.

<modsnip>

I listened to the call with the yelling last night over and over, just trying to put myself in the situation of the person yelling. The pleas are agonizing. They are from someone scared for their life. I imagine a stranger covering my nose and mouth, moving my head away to scream only to have my mouth covered again, swallowing blood from somewhere (no mistaking the taste), not knowing what damage has already been done ... feeling like I'm going in and out of consciousness ... terror will make a person pass out. Forty five seconds can seem like a lifetime when you feel like your life is about to end, everything is in slow motion. Why won't someone help? I see two people, they leave, no one is going to help, oh my God, he's going to kill me. I keep moving, trying to get away but this guy is on my chest, I can't breathe, I can't get him off me, I can only hit him in his legs, his stomach, nothing is working, HELP!! I have no choice but to shoot this guy or his going to kill me. The screaming stops.

I tried to put myself in Trayvon's place, on top of GZ, screaming for help. I can't get past why he would be in the power position screaming for help, or why the two witnesses would find the sight of a screaming Trayvon on top of George, a terrifying scenario rather than curious. If I saw Trayvon screaming and he was on top of George, I would immediately think he was trying to get attention to help George. Like a scene from a movie when someone's been hit by a car and the bystander runs over, tries to determine if the person is alive or dead, and starts yelling for someone to call 911

Some have said they think GZ was holding onto TM's hoodie. Sort of ridiculous when you really stop and try to visualize it - hoodies are made of stretchy material, TM would be pulling away and on his feet or on his side, moving away, not on top of GZ, screaming. If GZ's intent was to shoot TM, he would have shot him right away instead of allowing him to scream for almost a full minute, attracting attention.

JMO

vlpate said:

I listened to the call with the yelling last night over and over, just trying to put myself in the situation of the person yelling. The pleas are agonizing. They are from someone scared for their life. I imagine a stranger covering my nose and mouth, moving my head away to scream only to have my mouth covered again, swallowing blood from somewhere (no mistaking the taste), not knowing what damage has already been done ... feeling like I'm going in and out of consciousness ... terror will make a person pass out. Forty five seconds can seem like a lifetime when you feel like your life is about to end, everything is in slow motion. Why won't someone help? I see two people, they leave, no one is going to help, oh my God, he's going to kill me. I keep moving, trying to get away but this guy is on my chest, I can't breathe, I can't get him off me, I can only hit him in his legs, his stomach, nothing is working, HELP!! I have no choice but to shoot this guy or his going to kill me. The screaming stops.

I tried to put myself in Trayvon's place, on top of GZ, screaming for help. I can't get past why he would be in the power position screaming for help, or why the two witnesses would find the sight of a screaming Trayvon on top of George, a terrifying scenario rather than curious. If I saw Trayvon screaming and he was on top of George, I would immediately think he was trying to get attention to help George. Like a scene from a movie when someone's been hit by a car and the bystander runs over, tries to determine if the person is alive or dead, and starts yelling for someone to call 911

Some have said they think GZ was holding onto TM's hoodie. Sort of ridiculous when you really stop and try to visualize it - hoodies are made of stretchy material, TM would be pulling away and on his feet or on his side, moving away, not on top of GZ, screaming. If GZ's intent was to shoot TM, he would have shot him right away instead of allowing him to scream for almost a full minute, attracting attention.

JMO

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Excellent post. I truly believe that GZ only fired as a very last resort. TM screaming just makes no sense to me. I don't believe that gun was unholstered until just before it was fired.

vlpate said:

I listened to the call with the yelling last night over and over, just trying to put myself in the situation of the person yelling. The pleas are agonizing. They are from someone scared for their life. I imagine a stranger covering my nose and mouth, moving my head away to scream only to have my mouth covered again, swallowing blood from somewhere (no mistaking the taste), not knowing what damage has already been done ... feeling like I'm going in and out of consciousness ... terror will make a person pass out. Forty five seconds can seem like a lifetime when you feel like your life is about to end, everything is in slow motion. Why won't someone help? I see two people, they leave, no one is going to help, oh my God, he's going to kill me. I keep moving, trying to get away but this guy is on my chest, I can't breathe, I can't get him off me, I can only hit him in his legs, his stomach, nothing is working, HELP!! I have no choice but to shoot this guy or his going to kill me. The screaming stops.

I tried to put myself in Trayvon's place, on top of GZ, screaming for help. I can't get past why he would be in the power position screaming for help, or why the two witnesses would find the sight of a screaming Trayvon on top of George, a terrifying scenario rather than curious. If I saw Trayvon screaming and he was on top of George, I would immediately think he was trying to get attention to help George. Like a scene from a movie when someone's been hit by a car and the bystander runs over, tries to determine if the person is alive or dead, and starts yelling for someone to call 911

Some have said they think GZ was holding onto TM's hoodie. Sort of ridiculous when you really stop and try to visualize it - hoodies are made of stretchy material, TM would be pulling away and on his feet or on his side, moving away, not on top of GZ, screaming. If GZ's intent was to shoot TM, he would have shot him right away instead of allowing him to scream for almost a full minute, attracting attention.

JMO

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While that is a great visual and something I'm sure that the defense will use in the trial there is one problem with it..........the evidence that we have seen so far does not back it up. Zimmerman shows no signs of a life or death struggle/fight at all on the police station videos. There are no blood stains on either his shirt or jacket that are visible on the police station videos. EMS released Zimmerman after a few minutes without so much as a bandage on his injuries.

Trayvon could have very well been on top of Zimmerman because of Zimmerman refusing to release him. We have no idea if Zimmerman had his gun out at the time or not. I know that if someone had a hold of me, refused to let me go and had a gun pointed at me I would be fighting like hell to get away while screaming and pleading for my life. And I am not a 17 year old kid either.

MOO

TorisMom003 said:

While that is a great visual and something I'm sure that the defense will use in the trial there is one problem with it..........the evidence that we have seen so far does not back it up. Zimmerman shows no signs of a life or death struggle/fight at all on the police station videos. There are no blood stains on either his shirt or jacket that are visible on the police station videos. EMS released Zimmerman after a few minutes without so much as a bandage on his injuries.

Trayvon could have very well been on top of Zimmerman because of Zimmerman refusing to release him. We have no idea if Zimmerman had his gun out at the time or not. I know that if someone had a hold of me, refused to let me go and had a gun pointed at me I would be fighting like hell to get away while screaming and pleading for my life. And I am not a 17 year old kid either.

MOO

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^^ what she said. ^^

TorisMom003 said:

While that is a great visual and something I'm sure that the defense will use in the trial there is one problem with it..........the evidence that we have seen so far does not back it up. Zimmerman shows no signs of a life or death struggle/fight at all on the police station videos. There are no blood stains on either his shirt or jacket that are visible on the police station videos. EMS released Zimmerman after a few minutes without so much as a bandage on his injuries.

Trayvon could have very well been on top of Zimmerman because of Zimmerman refusing to release him. We have no idea if Zimmerman had his gun out at the time or not. I know that if someone had a hold of me, refused to let me go and had a gun pointed at me I would be fighting like hell to get away while screaming and pleading for my life. And I am not a 17 year old kid either.

MOO

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You also couldn't see the gashes in his head on those videos until they were enhanced. EMTs saying he doesn't need to go to the hospital is based on the fact that he was coherent. If he were not coherent he wouldn't have an option, but because he was they could not force him to go.

TorisMom003 said:

While that is a great visual and something I'm sure that the defense will use in the trial there is one problem with it..........the evidence that we have seen so far does not back it up. Zimmerman shows no signs of a life or death struggle/fight at all on the police station videos. There are no blood stains on either his shirt or jacket that are visible on the police station videos. EMS released Zimmerman after a few minutes without so much as a bandage on his injuries.

Trayvon could have very well been on top of Zimmerman because of Zimmerman refusing to release him. We have no idea if Zimmerman had his gun out at the time or not. I know that if someone had a hold of me, refused to let me go and had a gun pointed at me I would be fighting like hell to get away while screaming and pleading for my life. And I am not a 17 year old kid either.

MOO

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If GZ had a gun pointed at TM and TM got himself on top of GZ during a scuffle, in a position of power, how exactly does that happen? How does somebody holding a gun out wind up on the bottom with someone on top of him? How does someone who has a gun pointed at them, attack said gunman and wind up on top of them?

Because it's not possible. Either TM was never on top of GZ or he was and GZ didn't have has gun drawn before the fight. I just can't believe any human being, unless they were just looking to die, would attack someone if they saw a person pointing a gun at them.

THREAD TOPIC:

The cries for help


I am going to remove all these off topic posts cluttering up here. So if you are missing a post, that will be why. When I get off work and have time I will try to move them to the correct thread. Until then, please don't quote/respond to off topic posts and continue to drive the thread off topic.

Thanks!

Locking while I clean up. Will reopen soon.

Okay guys. I removed posts discussing the bond hearing, debating SYG laws, the possibility of a plea deal, and much, much more. Removed 35 posts in total. Please find the TOPICAL thread to post your thoughts & opinions. I hate to see so much work go to waste by being removed. I understand how a thread goes sideways. One thought leads to another and it starts spiraling until the thread is completely off topic. We all contribute at times. Just be aware and nudge those with who you are conversing and all of y'all move over to the right thread so your posts get to stand, okay?

I will try to move them to the topical thread when I get home tonight.


:tyou:

AJ Noiter said:

You also couldn't see the gashes in his head on those videos until they were enhanced. EMTs saying he doesn't need to go to the hospital is based on the fact that he was coherent. If he were not coherent he wouldn't have an option, but because he was they could not force him to go.

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The "enhanced" video was actually only one frame from the video, why not release the entire "enhanced" video for everyone to see? Unless of course there is nothing on the rest of the "enhanced" video that shows what that one frame does. Zimmerman was wearing a light grey shirt that night. Any blood that would be on the shirt, unless it was microscopic, would certainly show due to the color differences. EMS would not allow a person with an open wound that required stitches but did not get stitches because of waiting to long so that the wound began to heal already to leave without at least a bandage on that open wound. One does not have to go to the ER to get a bandage put on or even a butterfly bandage put on. A butterfly bandage is a bandage used in place of stitches for a minor cut or laceration that has smooth edges. Again, I stand by my claim that the evidence we have seen so far does not match up with what Zimmerman, his friends, family and/or lawyers have claimed.

If the evidence does not back up the other claims made by Zimmerman then I have to also disregard his claim that he was in fact the one yelling for help on the recorded 911 call. By the way, did this claim of his yelling for help come before or after that 911 call was released to the public? I think it makes a difference since there are clearly more than just yells for help. Perhaps Zimmeman didn't realize that the screams were recorded when he made that statement so he had no idea that he also needed to claim it was him that was begging and pleading for his life, instead of Trayvon.

MOO

TorisMom003 said:

The "enhanced" video was actually only one frame from the video, why not release the entire "enhanced" video for everyone to see? Unless of course there is nothing on the rest of the "enhanced" video that shows what that one frame does. Zimmerman was wearing a light grey shirt that night. Any blood that would be on the shirt, unless it was microscopic, would certainly show due to the color differences. EMS would not allow a person with an open wound that required stitches but did not get stitches because of waiting to long so that the wound began to heal already to leave without at least a bandage on that open wound. One does not have to go to the ER to get a bandage put on or even a butterfly bandage put on. A butterfly bandage is a bandage used in place of stitches for a minor cut or laceration that has smooth edges. Again, I stand by my claim that the evidence we have seen so far does not match up with what Zimmerman, his friends, family and/or lawyers have claimed.

If the evidence does not back up the other claims made by Zimmerman then I have to also disregard his claim that he was in fact the one yelling for help on the recorded 911 call. By the way, did this claim of his yelling for help come before or after that 911 call was released to the public? I think it makes a difference since there are clearly more than just yells for help. Perhaps Zimmeman didn't realize that the screams were recorded when he made that statement so he had no idea that he also needed to claim it was him that was begging and pleading for his life, instead of Trayvon.

MOO

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I won't say factually whether they did or didn't. The picture, though enhanced, doesn't really give any clear indication - only a couple slightly less smudged marks, which could be blood dripping from a soaked bandage (I'm not saying it is, just that it could be). The only evidence we currently have is that picture that I'm aware of.

AJ Noiter said:

You also couldn't see the gashes in his head on those videos until they were enhanced. EMTs saying he doesn't need to go to the hospital is based on the fact that he was coherent. If he were not coherent he wouldn't have an option, but because he was they could not force him to go.

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JMO but I think if he had injuries that needed medical care beyond what the EMTs could do for him right there I think he would have gone or he would have had no choice but to go. If he really had his head slammed to the concrete like he claims he would be so dizzy, disorientated and not coherent enough to give LE a statement and stand there claimng he had just shot someone. He would be more concerned with his own injuries. EMTs were able to treat him right there on the scene with a band aid. Head injuries are the worst and if the EMTs didn't think he needed to be transferred to a hospital how bad could they really have been?

TorisMom003 said:

While that is a great visual and something I'm sure that the defense will use in the trial there is one problem with it..........the evidence that we have seen so far does not back it up. Zimmerman shows no signs of a life or death struggle/fight at all on the police station videos. There are no blood stains on either his shirt or jacket that are visible on the police station videos. EMS released Zimmerman after a few minutes without so much as a bandage on his injuries.

Trayvon could have very well been on top of Zimmerman because of Zimmerman refusing to release him. We have no idea if Zimmerman had his gun out at the time or not. I know that if someone had a hold of me, refused to let me go and had a gun pointed at me I would be fighting like hell to get away while screaming and pleading for my life. And I am not a 17 year old kid either.

MOO

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Agreed!

IMO, Trayvon may have been on top when "John" saw him but could've been on the bottom before and/or after. He could've been on bottom and screaming when he was shot and then GZ flipped him over after he shot him.

I do not see how someone swallowing copious amounts of blood with his mouth/nose covered can scream like what we heard on the 911 call.

AJ Noiter said:

Without something to compare the screams to, technology capable or not, they can't say it WAS Mr. Martin. They can only give an estimation that it wasn't Mr. Zimmerman.

Edit: Also, as a carrier I can tell you that I would do everything in my power before I decided to draw my weapon. We are not "gun slingin" outlaws who shoot to kill then blow on the barrel of our guns before re-holstering.

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Not being snarky in the least, just curious but does everyone in Florida carry a weapon and why? It seems so odd to me! I can't imagine unless I was LE or in Security of some sort.

MaryAnn said:

JMO but I think if he had injuries that needed medical care beyond what the EMTs could do for him right there I think he would have gone or he would have had no choice but to go. If he really had his head slammed to the concrete like he claims he would be so dizzy, disorientated and not coherent enough to give LE a statement and stand there claimng he had just shot someone. He would be more concerned with his own injuries. EMTs were able to treat him right there on the scene with a band aid. Head injuries are the worst and if the EMTs didn't think he needed to be transferred to a hospital how bad could they really have been?

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I don't even have to read the report to assure you that EMT never wrote they didn't think GZ needed to go to the ER. They may have made notes about his condition, but it is never their right to say one way or the other unless the patient is incoherent. GZ has a constitutional right to refuse medical attention.

People in shock sometimes don't realize the extent of their injuries. I had a friend break every bone in her face practically in a horrific accident, when EMT arrived, she was helping a kid out of the other vehicle. I don't think GZ's injuries were severe either, but I don't think he was all there after just having killed someone.

MaryAnn said:

JMO but I think if he had injuries that needed medical care beyond what the EMTs could do for him right there I think he would have gone or he would have had no choice but to go. If he really had his head slammed to the concrete like he claims he would be so dizzy, disorientated and not coherent enough to give LE a statement and stand there claimng he had just shot someone. He would be more concerned with his own injuries. EMTs were able to treat him right there on the scene with a band aid. Head injuries are the worst and if the EMTs didn't think he needed to be transferred to a hospital how bad could they really have been?

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Thanks! and if I might add, a 2nd ambulance had been called for GZ but was sent back after the EMTs treated him for a few minutes in the patrol car and saw there were no serious injuries to his head....

Back to topic.....one possibility I haven't seen mentioned on the thread so far: suppose after receiving and reviewing the state's evidence, interviewing his client more and discovering the same discrepancies we have, and reviewing the witnesses statements and the 911 calls, MOM decides to stipulate to the state that it is Trayvon screaming.

MaryAnn said:

Not being snarky in the least, just curious but does everyone in Florida carry a weapon and why? It seems so odd to me! I can't imagine unless I was LE or in Security of some sort.

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I can personally guarantee not all of us in the gunshine state carry!