Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

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snoofer said:
what is the defining moment in this case in your opinion thus far ____________________.

Curious.

JMO
Click to expand...

Finding out that Tori was found with no pants on. To me that says a rape definitely happened. JMO
 
Salem said:
I'm not sure I believe this, but to my way of thinking, if it is true, MR would have had more reason to target Tori according to his testimony. It seems pretty obvious to me he was selling drugs, along with his escort business, that the $900+ in his car the night he was arrested did not come from CS and he ADMITTED HE KNEW OF TARA, INVOLVED IN THE DRUG SCENE, FROM GOOD TIME CHARLIES. Whereas, both Tara and TLM say TLM did NOT know Tori. I agree that taking Tori was a huge coincidence, but not impossible if she was the only child in front of the school that was not waiting for an adult to walk/take her home. MR's statement about Tara is huge to me. He was trying to point LE in a different direction to take the heat off of him, and in so doing, he used some of what he knew about Tara, mixed in with his lies. To me, he is more suspect in this area than TLM. Again - I tend to believe Tori was chosen at random.

I am waiting to see what the Defense does but they will have a hard time shaking my belief that MR & TLM planned this together, carried it out together, each did what they did, and both tried to escape the law.

Salem
Click to expand...

Respectfully snipped for brevity

I do recall him saying he had heard of her, and had also dated and/or spent time with a woman whose daughter was friend of Tori's, though I don't specifically recall him saying he actually knew TM. Did I miss something where he actually said he knew TM? TIA
 
I also really dont buy TLM version of how and why she killed Tori. Something is off. The whole thing seemed so made up.

All I can think about is she doesnt care and wants to be in prison.

Anyways I dont know what it is about her testimony that tells me the confession is just not true. Not saying she didnt but something else happened there that day that both are not being honest about JMO
 
nobodyzgirl said:
Respectfully snipped for brevity

I do recall him saying he had heard of her, and had also dated and/or spent time with a woman whose daughter was friend of Tori's, though I don't specifically recall him saying he actually knew TM. Did I miss something where he actually said he knew TM? TIA
Click to expand...

There were many confusing articles floating around that she hung around good charlies, and that she TM mentioned that in one of the articles.

Another article read that MR was a regular at Good time Charlies.

This is the only reason I think they knew of each other but who knows if the articles were misinterpreted?
 
If defence or crown have new exculpatory evidence since the arrest or any time after I would assume that they must immediately turn it over to each other. If so would then the crown have to decide if it most definately prooves the defendent innocent and then drop charges in a timely matter? Surely defense would not hold onto that evidence for months or years until trial and have his client sit in jail if he thought he had exculpatory evidence for crown. And, if that is the case then does this mean that this case is more or less going to be a he said she said and the jury will then have to side on the favor of defense or crown. JMO
 
Salem said:
Bolding by me and I used colors to separate some of your statements so I would make sense in my response :)



Green - I think the blood was from the rape - dripped on the floor and into the gym back.

Orange - I would not consider him a sophicated catch either - but it is obvious from the testimony that some did.

Blue - I agree 100% about both of them here.

Red - Agree to disagree here - I don't think it was from previous sexual encounters - I think it was because of what he did to Tori.

Lavender - I'm not sure I believe this, but to my way of thinking, if it is true, MR would have had more reason to target Tori according to his testimony. It seems pretty obvious to me he was selling drugs, along with his escort business, that the $900+ in his car the night he was arrested did not come from CS and he ADMITTED HE KNEW TARA, INVOLVED IN THE DRUG SCENE, FROM GOOD TIME CHARLIES. Whereas, both Tara and TLM say TLM did NOT know Tori. I agree that taking Tori was a huge coincidence, but not impossible if she was the only child in front of the school that was not waiting for an adult to walk/take her home. MR's statement about Tara is huge to me. He was trying to point LE in a different direction to take the heat off of him, and in so doing, he used some of what he knew about Tara, mixed in with his lies. To me, he is more suspect in this area than TLM. Again - I tend to believe Tori was chosen at random.

I am waiting to see what the Defense does but they will have a hard time shaking my belief that MR & TLM planned this together, carried it out together, each did what they did, and both tried to escape the law.

Salem
Click to expand...

It very well could have come from CS...she stated herself that she gave him money and not always through bank transactions, she also handed him cash.
 
I have compiled all the cross examinations to date by D. Derstine in MR's trial, for anyone interested in seeing the defense's questioning of witnesses. All my information was taken from LFP tweets accompanied by my editing. In all honesty and MOO, I fail to see how any of Derstine's cross examination of these witnesses, show MR's innocence in any part of the charges against him. Abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder. HTH and MOO.

Dirk Derstine cross-examines Griffin-Murrell, Tori's teacher whether Tori was wearing earrings when she left.

Derstine only asks one question in cross of Det. R. Brocanier. Do you have any special expertise in examining videos? Det. R. Brocanier says no.

Perry witness waiting for her children at the top of the hill. Derstine asks if there was any interaction between woman in white coat and Tori, she says no. Perry said she was concerned about the white coat woman, "She was different. She was someone I never saw at the school".

Tara Tori's mother. Dirk Derstine asks why moved her kids farther away from school. Tara said her son was supposed to walk Tori home from school. Tara said it was Tori's first time walking back from school to her new house. Tara said she went looking for Tori around 4:30 p.m. after Goris returned from cashing the GST rebate cheque. Tara said she talked to Tori about not talking to strangers. Cross-examination of Tori's mom is over.

Cross examination of TLM. Defence lawyer playing Necro song. Lyrics- "When it comes to inflicting pain I am creative." More Necro lyrics - " I got a garbage bag with your name written on it." Another Necro song "Dead body disposal" played for jury. McClintic said she wasn't listening to song when she walked up to school day Tori Stafford abducted. McClintic said she listened to Necro when she was angry. Next song to be played "No remorse." Lawyer Dirk Derstine questioning McClintic on instructions she was given by Rafferty on what to say after Tori's death. Derstine suggests McClintic had ample opportunity to walk away with Tori after the abduction. "In my mind I was not going to let anything bad happen. I thought I would protect her." McClintic questioned about buying hammer and garbage bags at Home Depot. McClintic continues to maintain she did not know Tori before her abduction. Derstine tells McClintic it was her idea alone to buy hammer and garbage bags. "You are mistaken," she replied. Derstine suggests that McClintic offered Tori to Rafferty and he rejected the offer. McClintic says she strongly disagrees. Derstine suggests Rafferty wasn't present for the killing and was horrified when he saw what happened. McClintic says that is wrong. McClintic questioned about script written by her on what she would say if questioned by police. She maintains the script was from Rafferty, not her ideas. McClintic referred to police interview where she said the script was her ideas. Said that was wrong. Explaining conflicting versions, a number of times McClintic has said she can't explain how her mind works. McClintic being questioned about entries in her journal in April 2009. In journal she writes she is ready to snap. Lots of profanity. "I am getting f----- blood thirsty again." McClintic says she was struggling with emotional issues at time. Derstine asks McClintic about altercation she had with another inmate on Jan. 31 of this year. Agreed she kicked and stomped other inmate who was on the ground in a fetal position. Remembers telling Godmother that her only regret was the killing involved a young kid. Otherwise could do it again. Also told godmother during visit that she had microwaved one of her pet dogs as a kid. Concocted story at time to cover it. "I was a child. I didn't know what I was doing," McClintic said. McClintic excused as a witness, ending her testimony in the trial.

B. Armstrong. Derstine asks how much they chatted when she sold him the Percocets. She said nothing unusual that day.

Det. Constable D. Vittie. Derstine suggest that McClintic does not look upset or hesitant as she walks thru store, Vittie agrees.

Det. Scoyne. Derstine suggests that jerky video may make people seem to be walking faster than they are. Questioned about diagram of scene where remains found. Scoyne questioned about size of rock pile, location of fences by defense lawyer Dirk Derstine. Topography of area around rock pile discussed, sight lines. Scoyne questioned about the visibility of silos from the rock pile area. Scoyne shown diagram that Terri-Lynne McClintic made to help police find remains of Tori Stafford. Asked again about what silos could be seen from the crime scene.

Dr. Michael Pollanen. Pollanen agrees very substantial force was applied to the head. Blunt force can cause bleeding, he said. Pollanen agrees bleeding can occur after death in some cases. "I can't determine the volume of blood that was lost in this case." Injuries to head would have caused death by selves, nothing could have saved her from the head injuries, Pollanen agrees. Pollanen repeats that the medical evidence is silent on whether there was a sexual assault. Pollanen agrees medical evidence also silent on who inflicted injuries on Tori Stafford.

Stirling is an OPP sergeant and ERT coordinator. Derstine asking about topographical map of crime scene. Derstine and Stirling disagreeing how steep the walk would be from the stone pile east to a tree line. Stirling says it would not be a steep grade.

Butler is an identification constable; talking about the process of admitting prisoners into Woodstock police station. Butler participated in 'drive-along tours' with Terri-Lynne McClintic. Derstine lists 15 public schools; Butler done on the stand.


Scoyne; Dirk Derstine starts questioning letters read in court yesterday found in McClintic's home. Derstine asking about gang slang found in letters; now showing an image from McClintic's facebook page. Derstine asking Scoyne about the music McClintic says she likes on her facebook page; Derstine asks about untitled songs on iPod. Derstine wants to know the top 10 most frequently played song on the iPod; #1 "Baby Bash" by Sean Kingston... #2 is a Necro song. Court sees lyric sheet and is hearing the song "Your ****in' Head Split" by Necro. Derstine now playing the song "Most Sadistic" by Necro. Derstine confirms these songs are highly played on McClintic's iPod and ends cross-examination.

Scoyne back on stand. Derstine says there is no dispute that this Civic belonged to Rafferty. Derstine begins by asking Scoyne how longer the hammer was in the trunk of Rafferty's car. Scoyne says no way of telling. Now Derstine calls up surveillance photo of Raffety's car previously submitted of evidence; he observers that the white dash is visible.

Crown is reading point of admission into record having to do with an exchange between officers and Rafferty night of arrest. Rafferty asked officers for drugs and said he takes Oxy and Percocet; Rafferty rolls eyes during admission.

B. Doupe is an expert in examining hair and textile evidence. Doupe is a Western grad and lectured at Brescia. Derstine asks McLean if it is likely that DNA would be found on objects that people routinely handle. McLean agrees with Derstine that DNA can be indirectly transferred from one object to another McLean agrees with Derstine that only a small amount of blood is needed to generate DNA. Court is shown blood stain on door moulding near rear passenger seat in Rafferty's car. Derstine said there was sperm fraction in the blood spot but it does not mean it came from semen, McLean agrees. McLean tells Derstine there are technical problems in determining whether male DNA found in some samples is actually from semen. Court is shown photo of Goodlife Fitness bag. Derstine asks about size of the blood stain McLean said it is "a fraction of millimetre". There were several sources of DNA in the blood stain McLean said blood was one source but there could have been other sources. Derstine presents McLean with different scenarios for mixed DNA sample. Derstine suggests different scenario for DNA deposits on gym bag, all three at once, one at a time two plus one etc. McLean agrees there are more than a dozen ways that DNA from three people could have ended up in one deposit. Derstine asks McLean about washing the "Shaq" shoes - how much washing would eliminate DNA? Derstine asks if soap and water washing would eliminate DNA from shoes? McLean agrees it could. Derstine asked about blond hairs on pea coat. McLean repeats that Stafford was excluded from one of the hairs from coat that was tested. Derstine shifts focus to attempts to get DNA from Tori's body, McLean agrees that decomposition makes it difficult. Derstine wraps up cross examination of McLean.


Griswold MR’s neighbour said he saw a ripped car seat in the garbage pile in front of Rafferty's house There was a love seat on top. Derstine asks Griswold if he saw Rafferty remove the car seat late in March to install speakers. Derstine asks Griswold if he saw Rafferty put the car seat in the shed, Griswold says no.

An unnamed woman who met Rafferty online in 2003 "We became good friends" began to lose contact when he moved to Woodstock in 2008. The woman said Rafferty spoke about abducting kids - the kids grow up thinking the abductors are their real parents. Derstine asks the woman if she took oxycodone. She says no but is familiar with the drug.

A. Reid is 25 encountered Rafferty thru Plenty of Fish dating site. Derstine starts cross asks if Rafferty talked to her about Tori - she says no.

Latimer is 50 year old real estate agent who lives on farm outside Woodstock. Met Rafferty in Jan 2009 on Plenty of Fish. Derstine starts cross - asks about Rafferty's MSN sign in, "I thought I had it all but all is lost". Derstine asks Latimer about her later own MSN posting on Latimer's sign in.

Chambers met Rafferty on Plenty of Fish .She said he seemed friendly in conversation. He asks Chambers about reaction in Woodstock to Tori's disappearance. Chamber said it was major.

Cruikshank is the owner of Outdoor Services, a landscaping company based on Hwy 6 just north of Guelph. Cruikshank employed Rafferty from 2003 to 2005 as landscaper and snow shoveling. Rafferty worked with a team, licence suspended at time. Derstine ask about trucks that Cruickshank's firm used. Derstine asks about number of employees. Cruikshank says 12.

A. Woods - Derstine asks about farmland north of Woodstock for some reason. Woods said there is a lot of farmland north of Woodstock .

Waechter was assigned on to Stafford case on April 15. Investigated phone calls made by Rafferty on May 11. Waechter said Rafferty phone calls included two calls to Corey's auto wreckers on May 11. He asks if there was any indication why Rafferty was at Coreys, Waechter says no.

J. Meloche is 29. She met Rafferty on April 12 2009 through Plenty of Fish. Derstine asks Meloche if she ever saw a back seat in Rafferty's car she says no. Derstine asks about tools in the trunk of Raffety' s car Meloche said she saw them in late April .

C. Harnum. Derstine's cross of Harnum - He asked how often she checked Rafferty's Facebook page, she says often.

Waldron computer forensic back on stand Derstine asks about tagging on Facebook. Asked by Derstine Waldron said Terri-Lynne McClintic was not one of Rafferty's Facebook friends. Derstine asks if Rafferty was looking at Alexis Lane profile when he wrote "Everything good coming my way". Waldron can't confirm if he was looking at the profile when he was posting. Derstine asks if Facebook can be asked from anywhere that has Internet connection Waldron says yes. Derstine asks about signing on to setting from someone else's account Waldron says it depends on privacy settings. Derstine asks about accuracy of profiles on Plenty of Fish Waldron says its "buyer beware". Court is seeing a portion of Terri-Lynne McClintics Facebook page Derstine is asking about bottom portions being cropped off screen. Derstine is asking Waldron why she picked particular items on McClintic's website. Derstine asks if people would post quizzes on their Facebook page if they like the result - Waldron agrees. Derstine asks about favorite music posted on McClintic Facebook profile. Derstine points out songs by Necro on McClintic site.

Broad is a senior manager in information and digital forensics for Bell Canada Enterprises. Derstine is questioning a data call on Rafferty's phone record that appears to go on for 17 hours. Derstine is question a data call at 4:18 p.m. on April 8 that appears to go on for 44 minutes another just after 5 p.m. goes for two hours. Derstine points out that the two long data calls were almost consecutive Broad said that voice calls could still have been received. Derstine asks if a phone has be turned on to receive a data call. Broad agrees. Derstine ask about the tracking of data calls from point where call placed. Suggests not good for tracking long calls after call placed.


M. Bakhtyar a radio frequency engineer. Derstine begins cross. He asks if we should be careful about pinning down the location where a cellphone call was made. Bahktyar agrees. Derstine suggests it is difficult to pin down an exact location because of all the variables Bahktyar agrees. Bahktyar said it is difficult to determine why a cell signal bounced off particular tower and not another. Derstine points out that the cellphone calls are logged from the point when the call is started and not good for tracing movements after. Derstine asks if it is possible there were malfunctions in the cell network on April 8, 2009 Bahktyar said the system was "working fine".

Youngs is a RIM employee from Waterloo She is a public safety liaison specialist. Derstine asks how BBMs different from texts.

Wilton is an RIM employee with an expertise in service maintenance for the network. Derstine suggests that MSN messages can get held up for various reasons Wilton agrees. He questions why the delivery times for BBMs tends to vary. Wilton said the messages should arrive within 4-5 seconds. Derstine suggests there are variables such as speed of carrier network. Wilton comments on list of Rafferty's MSN messages which indicates that some messages around 6:35 pm got held up and almost same time. Derstine suggests that MSN messages can get held up for various reasons Wilton agrees. Derstine suggest there was disruption in Rafferty's Blackberry around 16:35 on April 8th with various possible explanations.

C. Spitzig is 26, mother of 5. Defence asks about back seat of car. Charity said late in March 2009 there was no back seat in Rafferty's car.


E. Haye. She says she was sure she had sex with Rafferty on April 9. Derstine refers her to police statement where she said it might have been the 9th or 10th. Haid looking at calendar again says she had sex with Rafferty on the ninth, not 10th. Statement to police was either April 9 or 10th was at Rafferty's place in early afternoon.
 
nobodyzgirl said:
Respectfully snipped for brevity

I do recall him saying he had heard of her, and had also dated and/or spent time with a woman whose daughter was friend of Tori's, though I don't specifically recall him saying he actually knew TM. Did I miss something where he actually said he knew TM? TIA
Click to expand...

Just jumping off the quotes here.... MR said he had heard TM was into drugs and hung out at Good Time Charlie's, well MR hung out there too, there was an article way back that said that and I think the owners declined to comment. I will try and find it.
 
swedie said:
I have compiled all the cross examinations to date by D. Derstine in MR's trial, for anyone interested in seeing the defense's questioning of witnesses. All my information was taken from LFP tweets accompanied by my editing. In all honesty and MOO, I fail to see how any of Derstine's cross examination of these witnesses, show MR's innocence in any part of the charges against him. Abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder. HTH and MOO.

Dirk Derstine cross-examines Griffin-Murrell, Tori's teacher whether Tori was wearing earrings when she left.

Derstine only asks one question in cross of Det. R. Brocanier. Do you have any special expertise in examining videos? Det. R. Brocanier says no.

Perry witness waiting for her children at the top of the hill. Derstine asks if there was any interaction between woman in white coat and Tori, she says no. Perry said she was concerned about the white coat woman, "She was different. She was someone I never saw at the school".

Tara Tori's mother. Dirk Derstine asks why moved her kids farther away from school. Tara said her son was supposed to walk Tori home from school. Tara said it was Tori's first time walking back from school to her new house. Tara said she went looking for Tori around 4:30 p.m. after Goris returned from cashing the GST rebate cheque. Tara said she talked to Tori about not talking to strangers. Cross-examination of Tori's mom is over.

Cross examination of TLM. Defence lawyer playing Necro song. Lyrics- "When it comes to inflicting pain I am creative." More Necro lyrics - " I got a garbage bag with your name written on it." Another Necro song "Dead body disposal" played for jury. McClintic said she wasn't listening to song when she walked up to school day Tori Stafford abducted. McClintic said she listened to Necro when she was angry. Next song to be played "No remorse." Lawyer Dirk Derstine questioning McClintic on instructions she was given by Rafferty on what to say after Tori's death. Derstine suggests McClintic had ample opportunity to walk away with Tori after the abduction. "In my mind I was not going to let anything bad happen. I thought I would protect her." McClintic questioned about buying hammer and garbage bags at Home Depot. McClintic continues to maintain she did not know Tori before her abduction. Derstine tells McClintic it was her idea alone to buy hammer and garbage bags. "You are mistaken," she replied. Derstine suggests that McClintic offered Tori to Rafferty and he rejected the offer. McClintic says she strongly disagrees. Derstine suggests Rafferty wasn't present for the killing and was horrified when he saw what happened. McClintic says that is wrong. McClintic questioned about script written by her on what she would say if questioned by police. She maintains the script was from Rafferty, not her ideas. McClintic referred to police interview where she said the script was her ideas. Said that was wrong. Explaining conflicting versions, a number of times McClintic has said she can't explain how her mind works. McClintic being questioned about entries in her journal in April 2009. In journal she writes she is ready to snap. Lots of profanity. "I am getting f----- blood thirsty again." McClintic says she was struggling with emotional issues at time. Derstine asks McClintic about altercation she had with another inmate on Jan. 31 of this year. Agreed she kicked and stomped other inmate who was on the ground in a fetal position. Remembers telling Godmother that her only regret was the killing involved a young kid. Otherwise could do it again. Also told godmother during visit that she had microwaved one of her pet dogs as a kid. Concocted story at time to cover it. "I was a child. I didn't know what I was doing," McClintic said. McClintic excused as a witness, ending her testimony in the trial.

B. Armstrong. Derstine asks how much they chatted when she sold him the Percocets. She said nothing unusual that day.

Det. Constable D. Vittie. Derstine suggest that McClintic does not look upset or hesitant as she walks thru store, Vittie agrees.

Det. Scoyne. Derstine suggests that jerky video may make people seem to be walking faster than they are. Questioned about diagram of scene where remains found. Scoyne questioned about size of rock pile, location of fences by defense lawyer Dirk Derstine. Topography of area around rock pile discussed, sight lines. Scoyne questioned about the visibility of silos from the rock pile area. Scoyne shown diagram that Terri-Lynne McClintic made to help police find remains of Tori Stafford. Asked again about what silos could be seen from the crime scene.

Dr. Michael Pollanen. Pollanen agrees very substantial force was applied to the head. Blunt force can cause bleeding, he said. Pollanen agrees bleeding can occur after death in some cases. "I can't determine the volume of blood that was lost in this case." Injuries to head would have caused death by selves, nothing could have saved her from the head injuries, Pollanen agrees. Pollanen repeats that the medical evidence is silent on whether there was a sexual assault. Pollanen agrees medical evidence also silent on who inflicted injuries on Tori Stafford.

Stirling is an OPP sergeant and ERT coordinator. Derstine asking about topographical map of crime scene. Derstine and Stirling disagreeing how steep the walk would be from the stone pile east to a tree line. Stirling says it would not be a steep grade.

Butler is an identification constable; talking about the process of admitting prisoners into Woodstock police station. Butler participated in 'drive-along tours' with Terri-Lynne McClintic. Derstine lists 15 public schools; Butler done on the stand.


Scoyne; Dirk Derstine starts questioning letters read in court yesterday found in McClintic's home. Derstine asking about gang slang found in letters; now showing an image from McClintic's facebook page. Derstine asking Scoyne about the music McClintic says she likes on her facebook page; Derstine asks about untitled songs on iPod. Derstine wants to know the top 10 most frequently played song on the iPod; #1 "Baby Bash" by Sean Kingston... #2 is a Necro song. Court sees lyric sheet and is hearing the song "Your ****in' Head Split" by Necro. Derstine now playing the song "Most Sadistic" by Necro. Derstine confirms these songs are highly played on McClintic's iPod and ends cross-examination.

Scoyne back on stand. Derstine says there is no dispute that this Civic belonged to Rafferty. Derstine begins by asking Scoyne how longer the hammer was in the trunk of Rafferty's car. Scoyne says no way of telling. Now Derstine calls up surveillance photo of Raffety's car previously submitted of evidence; he observers that the white dash is visible.

Crown is reading point of admission into record having to do with an exchange between officers and Rafferty night of arrest. Rafferty asked officers for drugs and said he takes Oxy and Percocet; Rafferty rolls eyes during admission.

Barbara Doupe is an expert in examining hair and textile evidence. Doupe is a Western grad and lectured at Brescia. Derstine asks McLean if it is likely that DNA would be found on objects that people routinely handle. McLean agrees with Derstine that DNA can be indirectly transferred from one object to another McLean agrees with Derstine that only a small amount of blood is needed to generate DNA. Court is shown blood stain on door moulding near rear passenger seat in Rafferty's car. Derstine said there was sperm fraction in the blood spot but it does not mean it came from semen, McLean agrees. McLean tells Derstine there are technical problems in determining whether male DNA found in some samples is actually from semen. Court is shown photo of Goodlife Fitness bag. Derstine asks about size of the blood stain McLean said it is "a fraction of millimetre". There were several sources of DNA in the blood stain McLean said blood was one source but there could have been other sources. Derstine presents McLean with different scenarios for mixed DNA sample. Derstine suggests different scenario for DNA deposits on gym bag, all three at once, one at a time two plus one etc. McLean agrees there are more than a dozen ways that DNA from three people could have ended up in one deposit. Derstine asks McLean about washing the "Shaq" shoes - how much washing would eliminate DNA? Derstine asks if soap and water washing would eliminate DNA from shoes? McLean agrees it could. Derstine asked about blond hairs on pea coat. McLean repeats that Stafford was excluded from one of the hairs from coat that was tested. Derstine shifts focus to attempts to get DNA from Tori's body, McLean agrees that decomposition makes it difficult. Derstine wraps up cross examination of McLean.


Griswold MR’s neighbour said he saw a ripped car seat in the garbage pile in front of Rafferty's house There was a love seat on top. Derstine asks Griswold if he saw Rafferty remove the car seat late in March to install speakers. Derstine asks Griswold if he saw Rafferty put the car seat in the shed, Griswold says no.

A woman who met Rafferty online in 2003 "We became good friends" began to lose contact when he moved to Woodstock in 2008. The woman said Rafferty spoke about abducting kids - the kids grow up thinking the abductors are their real parents. Derstine asks the woman if she took oxycodone. She says no but is familiar with the drug.

A.Reid is 25 encountered Rafferty thru Plenty of Fish dating site. Derstine starts cross asks if Rafferty talked to her about Tori - she says no.

Latimer is 50 year old real estate agent who lives on farm outside Woodstock. Met Rafferty in Jan 2009 on Plenty of Fish. Derstine starts cross - asks about Rafferty's MSN sign in, "I thought I had it all but all is lost". Derstine asks Latimer about her later own MSN posting on Latimer's sign in.

Chambers met Rafferty on Plenty of Fish .She said he seemed friendly in conversation. He asks Chambers about reaction in Woodstock to Tori's disappearance. Chamber said it was major.

Cruikshank is the owner of Outdoor Services, a landscaping company based on Hwy 6 just north of Guelph. Cruikshank employed Rafferty from 2003 to 2005 as landscaper and snow shoveling. Rafferty worked with a team, licence suspended at time. Derstine ask about trucks that Cruickshank's firm used. Derstine asks about number of employees. Cruikshank says 12.

A. Woods - Derstine asks about farmland north of Woodstock for some reason. Woods said there is a lot of farmland north of Woodstock .

Waechter was assigned on to Stafford case on April 15. Investigated phone calls made by Rafferty on May 11. Waechter said Rafferty phone calls included two calls to Corey's auto wreckers on May 11. He asks if there was any indication why Rafferty was at Coreys, Waechter says no.

Meloche is 29. She met Rafferty on April 12 2009 through Plenty of Fish. Derstine asks Meloche if she ever saw a back seat in Rafferty's car she says no. Derstine asks about tools in the trunk of Raffety' s car Meloche said she saw them in late April .

C. Harnum. Derstine's cross of Harnum - He asked how often she checked Rafferty's Facebook page, she says often.

Waldron computer forensic back on stand Derstine asks about tagging on Facebook. Asked by Derstine Waldron said Terri-Lynne McClintic was not one of Rafferty's Facebook friends. Derstine asks if Rafferty was looking at Alexis Lane profile when he wrote "Everything good coming my way". Waldron can't confirm if he was looking at the profile when he was posting. Derstine asks if Facebook can be asked from anywhere that has Internet connection Waldron says yes. Derstine asks about signing on to setting from someone else's account Waldron says it depends on privacy settings. Derstine asks about accuracy of profiles on Plenty of Fish Waldron says its "buyer beware". Court is seeing a portion of Terri-Lynne McClintics Facebook page Derstine is asking about bottom portions being cropped off screen. Derstine is asking Waldron why she picked particular items on McClintic's website. Derstine asks if people would post quizzes on their Facebook page if they like the result - Waldron agrees. Derstine asks about favorite music posted on McClintic Facebook profile. Derstine points out songs by Necro on McClintic site.

Broad is a senior manager in information and digital forensics for Bell Canada Enterprises. Derstine is questioning a data call on Rafferty's phone record that appears to go on for 17 hours. Derstine is question a data call at 4:18 p.m. on April 8 that appears to go on for 44 minutes another just after 5 p.m. goes for two hours. Derstine points out that the two long data calls were almost consecutive Broad said that voice calls could still have been received. Derstine asks if a phone has be turned on to receive a data call. Broad agrees. Derstine ask about the tracking of data calls from point where call placed. Suggests not good for tracking long calls after call placed.


Mustafa Bakhtyar a radio frequency engineer. Derstine begins cross. He asks if we should be careful about pinning down the location where a cellphone call was made. Bahktyar agrees. Derstine suggests it is difficult to pin down an exact location because of all the variables Bahktyar agrees. Bahktyar said it is difficult to determine why a cell signal bounced off particular tower and not another. Derstine points out that the cellphone calls are logged from the point when the call is started and not good for tracing movements after. Derstine asks if it is possible there were malfunctions in the cell network on April 8, 2009 Bahktyar said the system was "working fine".

Youngs is a RIM employee from Waterloo She is a public safety liaison specialist. Derstine asks how BBMs different from texts.

Wilton is an RIM employees with an expertise in service maintenance for the network. Derstine suggests that MSN messages can get held up for various reasons Wilton agrees. He questions why the delivery times for BBMs tends to vary. Wilton said the messages should arrive within 4-5 seconds. Derstine suggests there are variables such as speed of carrier network. Wilton comments on list of Rafferty's MSN messages which indicates that some messages around 6:35 pm got held up and almost same time. Derstine suggests that MSN messages can get held up for various reasons Wilton agrees. Derstine suggest there was disruption in Rafferty's Blackberry around 16:35 on April 8th with various possible explanations.

Spitzig is 26, mother of 5. Defence asks about back seat of car. Charity said late in March 2009 there was no back seat in Rafferty's car.


Elysa Haye. She says she was sure she had sex with Rafferty on April 9. Derstine refers her to police statement where she said it might have been the 9th or 10th. Haid looking at calendar again says she had sex with Rafferty on the ninth, not 10th. Statement to police was either April 9 or 10th was at Rafferty's place in early afternoon.
Click to expand...

lol wb! wow you have been busy!! :O)
 
Jezbel said:
Just jumping off the quotes here.... MR said he had heard TM was into drugs and hung out at Good Time Charlie's, well MR hung out there too, there was an article way back that said that and I think the owners declined to comment. I will try and find it.
Click to expand...

Thanks. My view is just because they hung out at the same place doesn't mean they actually know each other. Salem mentioned that MR admitted to knowing TM and I don't recall that. I do recall during the interview with the police he mentioned having heard of her. I also seem to recall during TM's testimony on the stand she said she had never met MR.
 
robynhood said:
....IMO ...very curious ...I thought TLM mom was fatally Ill with cancer? back in 2009 ...almost 3 years later is she still well to even take the stand in court?....curious ...agree doubtful the DENFENSE would do this ....anyone know how well terri lynn's mom is ...????

also curious where is Rafferty's mom she certain would have something to say ...he lived with her during all this ...????...Next anyone know if the defense will produce a storyline outline of their chapters so the JURY will understand where they are going each day????....IMO this would be EXTREMELY interesting to see or do we get surpprises each day???....robynhood
Click to expand...

as of a few months ago, she was very ill

haven't heard anything lately
 
snoofer said:
lol wb! wow you have been busy!! :O)
Click to expand...

You bet Snoofer! I take my job seriously lol. No sense sitting around crying over spilled milk. MOO, Glad to be back. :D :D xoxoxoxo
 
swedie said:
I have compiled all the cross examinations to date by D. Derstine in MR's trial, for anyone interested in seeing the defense's questioning of witnesses. All my information was taken from LFP tweets accompanied by my editing. In all honesty and MOO, I fail to see how any of Derstine's cross examination of these witnesses, show MR's innocence in any part of the charges against him. Abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder. HTH and MOO.

Dirk Derstine cross-examines Griffin-Murrell, Tori's teacher whether Tori was wearing earrings when she left.

Derstine only asks one question in cross of Det. R. Brocanier. Do you have any special expertise in examining videos? Det. R. Brocanier says no.

Perry witness waiting for her children at the top of the hill. Derstine asks if there was any interaction between woman in white coat and Tori, she says no. Perry said she was concerned about the white coat woman, "She was different. She was someone I never saw at the school".

Tara Tori's mother. Dirk Derstine asks why moved her kids farther away from school. Tara said her son was supposed to walk Tori home from school. Tara said it was Tori's first time walking back from school to her new house. Tara said she went looking for Tori around 4:30 p.m. after Goris returned from cashing the GST rebate cheque. Tara said she talked to Tori about not talking to strangers. Cross-examination of Tori's mom is over.

Cross examination of TLM. Defence lawyer playing Necro song. Lyrics- "When it comes to inflicting pain I am creative." More Necro lyrics - " I got a garbage bag with your name written on it." Another Necro song "Dead body disposal" played for jury. McClintic said she wasn't listening to song when she walked up to school day Tori Stafford abducted. McClintic said she listened to Necro when she was angry. Next song to be played "No remorse." Lawyer Dirk Derstine questioning McClintic on instructions she was given by Rafferty on what to say after Tori's death. Derstine suggests McClintic had ample opportunity to walk away with Tori after the abduction. "In my mind I was not going to let anything bad happen. I thought I would protect her." McClintic questioned about buying hammer and garbage bags at Home Depot. McClintic continues to maintain she did not know Tori before her abduction. Derstine tells McClintic it was her idea alone to buy hammer and garbage bags. "You are mistaken," she replied. Derstine suggests that McClintic offered Tori to Rafferty and he rejected the offer. McClintic says she strongly disagrees. Derstine suggests Rafferty wasn't present for the killing and was horrified when he saw what happened. McClintic says that is wrong. McClintic questioned about script written by her on what she would say if questioned by police. She maintains the script was from Rafferty, not her ideas. McClintic referred to police interview where she said the script was her ideas. Said that was wrong. Explaining conflicting versions, a number of times McClintic has said she can't explain how her mind works. McClintic being questioned about entries in her journal in April 2009. In journal she writes she is ready to snap. Lots of profanity. "I am getting f----- blood thirsty again." McClintic says she was struggling with emotional issues at time. Derstine asks McClintic about altercation she had with another inmate on Jan. 31 of this year. Agreed she kicked and stomped other inmate who was on the ground in a fetal position. Remembers telling Godmother that her only regret was the killing involved a young kid. Otherwise could do it again. Also told godmother during visit that she had microwaved one of her pet dogs as a kid. Concocted story at time to cover it. "I was a child. I didn't know what I was doing," McClintic said. McClintic excused as a witness, ending her testimony in the trial.

B. Armstrong. Derstine asks how much they chatted when she sold him the Percocets. She said nothing unusual that day.

Det. Constable D. Vittie. Derstine suggest that McClintic does not look upset or hesitant as she walks thru store, Vittie agrees.

Det. Scoyne. Derstine suggests that jerky video may make people seem to be walking faster than they are. Questioned about diagram of scene where remains found. Scoyne questioned about size of rock pile, location of fences by defense lawyer Dirk Derstine. Topography of area around rock pile discussed, sight lines. Scoyne questioned about the visibility of silos from the rock pile area. Scoyne shown diagram that Terri-Lynne McClintic made to help police find remains of Tori Stafford. Asked again about what silos could be seen from the crime scene.

Dr. Michael Pollanen. Pollanen agrees very substantial force was applied to the head. Blunt force can cause bleeding, he said. Pollanen agrees bleeding can occur after death in some cases. "I can't determine the volume of blood that was lost in this case." Injuries to head would have caused death by selves, nothing could have saved her from the head injuries, Pollanen agrees. Pollanen repeats that the medical evidence is silent on whether there was a sexual assault. Pollanen agrees medical evidence also silent on who inflicted injuries on Tori Stafford.

Stirling is an OPP sergeant and ERT coordinator. Derstine asking about topographical map of crime scene. Derstine and Stirling disagreeing how steep the walk would be from the stone pile east to a tree line. Stirling says it would not be a steep grade.

Butler is an identification constable; talking about the process of admitting prisoners into Woodstock police station. Butler participated in 'drive-along tours' with Terri-Lynne McClintic. Derstine lists 15 public schools; Butler done on the stand.


Scoyne; Dirk Derstine starts questioning letters read in court yesterday found in McClintic's home. Derstine asking about gang slang found in letters; now showing an image from McClintic's facebook page. Derstine asking Scoyne about the music McClintic says she likes on her facebook page; Derstine asks about untitled songs on iPod. Derstine wants to know the top 10 most frequently played song on the iPod; #1 "Baby Bash" by Sean Kingston... #2 is a Necro song. Court sees lyric sheet and is hearing the song "Your ****in' Head Split" by Necro. Derstine now playing the song "Most Sadistic" by Necro. Derstine confirms these songs are highly played on McClintic's iPod and ends cross-examination.

Scoyne back on stand. Derstine says there is no dispute that this Civic belonged to Rafferty. Derstine begins by asking Scoyne how longer the hammer was in the trunk of Rafferty's car. Scoyne says no way of telling. Now Derstine calls up surveillance photo of Raffety's car previously submitted of evidence; he observers that the white dash is visible.

Crown is reading point of admission into record having to do with an exchange between officers and Rafferty night of arrest. Rafferty asked officers for drugs and said he takes Oxy and Percocet; Rafferty rolls eyes during admission.

Barbara Doupe is an expert in examining hair and textile evidence. Doupe is a Western grad and lectured at Brescia. Derstine asks McLean if it is likely that DNA would be found on objects that people routinely handle. McLean agrees with Derstine that DNA can be indirectly transferred from one object to another McLean agrees with Derstine that only a small amount of blood is needed to generate DNA. Court is shown blood stain on door moulding near rear passenger seat in Rafferty's car. Derstine said there was sperm fraction in the blood spot but it does not mean it came from semen, McLean agrees. McLean tells Derstine there are technical problems in determining whether male DNA found in some samples is actually from semen. Court is shown photo of Goodlife Fitness bag. Derstine asks about size of the blood stain McLean said it is "a fraction of millimetre". There were several sources of DNA in the blood stain McLean said blood was one source but there could have been other sources. Derstine presents McLean with different scenarios for mixed DNA sample. Derstine suggests different scenario for DNA deposits on gym bag, all three at once, one at a time two plus one etc. McLean agrees there are more than a dozen ways that DNA from three people could have ended up in one deposit. Derstine asks McLean about washing the "Shaq" shoes - how much washing would eliminate DNA? Derstine asks if soap and water washing would eliminate DNA from shoes? McLean agrees it could. Derstine asked about blond hairs on pea coat. McLean repeats that Stafford was excluded from one of the hairs from coat that was tested. Derstine shifts focus to attempts to get DNA from Tori's body, McLean agrees that decomposition makes it difficult. Derstine wraps up cross examination of McLean.


Griswold MR’s neighbour said he saw a ripped car seat in the garbage pile in front of Rafferty's house There was a love seat on top. Derstine asks Griswold if he saw Rafferty remove the car seat late in March to install speakers. Derstine asks Griswold if he saw Rafferty put the car seat in the shed, Griswold says no.

A woman who met Rafferty online in 2003 "We became good friends" began to lose contact when he moved to Woodstock in 2008. The woman said Rafferty spoke about abducting kids - the kids grow up thinking the abductors are their real parents. Derstine asks the woman if she took oxycodone. She says no but is familiar with the drug.

A.Reid is 25 encountered Rafferty thru Plenty of Fish dating site. Derstine starts cross asks if Rafferty talked to her about Tori - she says no.

Latimer is 50 year old real estate agent who lives on farm outside Woodstock. Met Rafferty in Jan 2009 on Plenty of Fish. Derstine starts cross - asks about Rafferty's MSN sign in, "I thought I had it all but all is lost". Derstine asks Latimer about her later own MSN posting on Latimer's sign in.

Chambers met Rafferty on Plenty of Fish .She said he seemed friendly in conversation. He asks Chambers about reaction in Woodstock to Tori's disappearance. Chamber said it was major.

Cruikshank is the owner of Outdoor Services, a landscaping company based on Hwy 6 just north of Guelph. Cruikshank employed Rafferty from 2003 to 2005 as landscaper and snow shoveling. Rafferty worked with a team, licence suspended at time. Derstine ask about trucks that Cruickshank's firm used. Derstine asks about number of employees. Cruikshank says 12.

A. Woods - Derstine asks about farmland north of Woodstock for some reason. Woods said there is a lot of farmland north of Woodstock .

Waechter was assigned on to Stafford case on April 15. Investigated phone calls made by Rafferty on May 11. Waechter said Rafferty phone calls included two calls to Corey's auto wreckers on May 11. He asks if there was any indication why Rafferty was at Coreys, Waechter says no.

Meloche is 29. She met Rafferty on April 12 2009 through Plenty of Fish. Derstine asks Meloche if she ever saw a back seat in Rafferty's car she says no. Derstine asks about tools in the trunk of Raffety' s car Meloche said she saw them in late April .

C. Harnum. Derstine's cross of Harnum - He asked how often she checked Rafferty's Facebook page, she says often.

Waldron computer forensic back on stand Derstine asks about tagging on Facebook. Asked by Derstine Waldron said Terri-Lynne McClintic was not one of Rafferty's Facebook friends. Derstine asks if Rafferty was looking at Alexis Lane profile when he wrote "Everything good coming my way". Waldron can't confirm if he was looking at the profile when he was posting. Derstine asks if Facebook can be asked from anywhere that has Internet connection Waldron says yes. Derstine asks about signing on to setting from someone else's account Waldron says it depends on privacy settings. Derstine asks about accuracy of profiles on Plenty of Fish Waldron says its "buyer beware". Court is seeing a portion of Terri-Lynne McClintics Facebook page Derstine is asking about bottom portions being cropped off screen. Derstine is asking Waldron why she picked particular items on McClintic's website. Derstine asks if people would post quizzes on their Facebook page if they like the result - Waldron agrees. Derstine asks about favorite music posted on McClintic Facebook profile. Derstine points out songs by Necro on McClintic site.

Broad is a senior manager in information and digital forensics for Bell Canada Enterprises. Derstine is questioning a data call on Rafferty's phone record that appears to go on for 17 hours. Derstine is question a data call at 4:18 p.m. on April 8 that appears to go on for 44 minutes another just after 5 p.m. goes for two hours. Derstine points out that the two long data calls were almost consecutive Broad said that voice calls could still have been received. Derstine asks if a phone has be turned on to receive a data call. Broad agrees. Derstine ask about the tracking of data calls from point where call placed. Suggests not good for tracking long calls after call placed.


Mustafa Bakhtyar a radio frequency engineer. Derstine begins cross. He asks if we should be careful about pinning down the location where a cellphone call was made. Bahktyar agrees. Derstine suggests it is difficult to pin down an exact location because of all the variables Bahktyar agrees. Bahktyar said it is difficult to determine why a cell signal bounced off particular tower and not another. Derstine points out that the cellphone calls are logged from the point when the call is started and not good for tracing movements after. Derstine asks if it is possible there were malfunctions in the cell network on April 8, 2009 Bahktyar said the system was "working fine".

Youngs is a RIM employee from Waterloo She is a public safety liaison specialist. Derstine asks how BBMs different from texts.

Wilton is an RIM employees with an expertise in service maintenance for the network. Derstine suggests that MSN messages can get held up for various reasons Wilton agrees. He questions why the delivery times for BBMs tends to vary. Wilton said the messages should arrive within 4-5 seconds. Derstine suggests there are variables such as speed of carrier network. Wilton comments on list of Rafferty's MSN messages which indicates that some messages around 6:35 pm got held up and almost same time. Derstine suggests that MSN messages can get held up for various reasons Wilton agrees. Derstine suggest there was disruption in Rafferty's Blackberry around 16:35 on April 8th with various possible explanations.

Spitzig is 26, mother of 5. Defence asks about back seat of car. Charity said late in March 2009 there was no back seat in Rafferty's car.


Elysa Haye. She says she was sure she had sex with Rafferty on April 9. Derstine refers her to police statement where she said it might have been the 9th or 10th. Haid looking at calendar again says she had sex with Rafferty on the ninth, not 10th. Statement to police was either April 9 or 10th was at Rafferty's place in early afternoon.
Click to expand...

really does not show what line of defense that defense will take. I guess we will have to hold on to our hats til they are up. JMO
 
nobodyzgirl said:
Thanks. My view is just because they hung out at the same place doesn't mean they actually know each other. Salem mentioned that MR admitted to knowing TM and I don't recall that. I do recall during the interview with the police he mentioned having heard of her. I also seem to recall during TM's testimony on the stand she said she had never met MR.
Click to expand...

Did she say that on the stand? I don't remember seeing that she was asked that. I do remember her being asked that in a presser after he was arrested and she said no.
 
nobodyzgirl said:
Thanks. My view is just because they hung out at the same place doesn't mean they actually know each other. Salem mentioned that MR admitted to knowing TM and I don't recall that. I do recall during the interview with the police he mentioned having heard of her. I also seem to recall during TM's testimony on the stand she said she had never met MR.
Click to expand...

Maybe I should have been clearer, not saying that they actually knew each other, but that maybe MR knew more about TM then he let on
 
maxfactor said:
Did she say that on the stand? I don't remember seeing that she was asked that. I do remember her being asked that in a presser after he was arrested and she said no.
Click to expand...

I don't think she said whether she knew MR and Derstine never asked her. Tara testified on March 7th. JMO
 
matou said:
I don't think she said whether she knew MR and Derstine never asked her. Tara testified on March 7th. JMO
Click to expand...


That's what I thought. I was very surprised that neither the Crown nor the defense asked her if she knew him. My feeling was that it could be that if the defense asked her that they could be opening the door for the Crown to ask questions the defense would rather not be asked.
 
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