Caylee's "Big Trouble..." Shirt Incl. Photos *Merged*

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Marina2 said:
The Circo brand clothes at Target are 100% cotton but they aren't necessarily the same weight. Many of the shorts are listed as cotton "twll" which is a heavier weight fabric than what would be used in a t-shirt. We'd have to actually see and feel the shorts and the t-shirt to say that they are of similar weight. My best guess is that the shorts were of a heavier weight than the t-shirt because they didn't disentegrate.
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ITA-I thought the shorts were closer to a denim type material?
I can't remember where I read that, but I'm almost certain I did.
 
http://books.google.com/books?id=iAtRGA2IfcwC&pg=RA1-PA168&lpg=RA1-PA168&dq=effect+of+decompositional+fluids+on+the+clothing+of+a+corpse&source=bl&ots=kakvC8Cj98&sig=97CmK22A8xb5Lmt8_3uw61emDgA&hl=en&ei=92buSfikAaagM8PH_fAP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1



"Insects also have been shown to move and tear clothing in a manner that may mislead investigators into assuming a sexual assault has taken place.(Komar and Beattie, 1998). Maggot masses have been able to move clothing from underneath a body, despite the overlying carcass weight. In carcasses clothed in skirts, the underwear and pantyhose were moved down to the distal hindlimbs while the skirt was pushed up (Komar and Beattie, 1998). Natural decompositional changes such as bloat tore clothing as well (Komar and Beattie, 1998)."
 
I'm no expert, but I have recycled old cotton t-shirts and towels as mulch around plants in my gardens with wood chips on top, and it's incredible how fast they disintegrate in a few months. Here in the Southeast there is so much humidity, rain, heat, and of course insects and scavengers. And Florida is one of the hottest and wettest places around - they had two hurricanes while Caylee was missing, after all. It's a swamp. It's a miracle that any of the clothes are still around.

Cotton is a natural fiber and will just get thinner and thinner till it disappears. It's my guess that the letters are made from a thicker polyester, plus they had the glue from the iron-on. The shorts could have polyester in them also, which is man-made and almost like plastic.

If something was down in the laundry bag, unexposed to the sun, it might not disintegrate as fast as something up above it.
 
AquarianEssence said:
I just skimmed through 25 pages of Circo infant and toddler clothing at target. all the little shirts and shorts I looked at were 100% cotton, as I thought they would be. The shirt and shorts would be similar weight and disintegrate at a similar rate, being exposed to the same environment. The lettering could be a different material, though.

If Casey had killed her and put her clothes in a different place than her body then her statement about not finding the clothes might be incriminating but her clothes were with her other than the body of the shirt and her shoes. This statement, to me, sounds like a mother imagining the worst that could happen to her daughter, thinking the killer might have raped her, carelessly leaving her clothes somewhere when he ran off. If she had left the usual couple of changes of clothes with her when she last saw her, those clothes are still missing. No, I'm sure Cindy doesn't recall every piece of clothing exactly. I've had things disappear and didn't even know it till they showed up in some strange place. The phrase on the shirt doesn't concern me either, only that it is there and not the body of the shirt.

Eddeva, are you saying if Haleigh would have been found in that dumpster that no important evidence could be found with her? They would simply have to sort out all the DNA and clear each person. There could also be other items of interest connected to that spot in the dumpster or landfill. LE in the Sandra Cantu case were sifting the landfill.
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*my bold.
that's good information, AE. i don't live in the US and have never heard of that brand of clothing, thank you.
are you asserting that you think it likely that casey thought her daughter might have been raped and murdered, didn't call the police, invented a nanny to cover for the killer, then chose to take the fall in his place? it doesn't seem very probable to me.
as for the last part i bolded - no i didn't say anything about haleigh at all. as i mentioned before, i don't live in the US and subsequently i don't get the same news and chat programmes that you do. i don't know anything at all about that case, it's not being followed where i live or in the country of my birth for that matter. i have a family and personal commitments and only a certain amount of time to myself in any given day to spend here and it's not enough to follow more than one case on the net. having said that, i believe a landfill and a dumpster to be very different and i have no idea whatsoever when the dumpster you're talking about was or wasn't searched in relation to when the child went missing. i don't know anything about the case you're referencing, seagull so i can't comment on it.
every missing child is a tragedy but it's impossible for me to follow all their stories. i chose to follow this case for my own reasons which have nothing to do w/ the hype surrounding it.


Marina2 said:
The Circo brand clothes at Target are 100% cotton but they aren't necessarily the same weight. Many of the shorts are listed as cotton "twll" which is a heavier weight fabric than what would be used in a t-shirt. We'd have to actually see and feel the shorts and the t-shirt to say that they are of similar weight. My best guess is that the shorts were of a heavier weight than the t-shirt because they didn't disentegrate.
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shorts as thin as a T-shirt would be rather impractical imo and although i admit there are a lot of impractical children's clothing out there i think it would be fair to say that most shorts would be 'thicker' than a T-shirt. ITA w/ you - we would need to see and feel both items for ourselves, marina. my daughter has some 100% cotton pyjamas and i have a 100% cotton jacket - you would never believe they were made of the same material and the jacket would last a lot longer than the pyjamas imo.
 
My experience with fabrics has been that "100% cotton" isn't always. Maybe the collar was reinforced with polyester or Lycra to retain its shape.

Also, acetone would dissolve the letters (probably) but not the cotton (certain about that). Chlorine/hypochlorite would rot the cotton.
 
eddeva said:
*my bold.
that's good information, AE. i don't live in the US and have never heard of that brand of clothing, thank you.
are you asserting that you think it likely that casey thought her daughter might have been raped and murdered, didn't call the police, invented a nanny to cover for the killer, then chose to take the fall in his place? it doesn't seem very probable to me.
as for the last part i bolded - no i didn't say anything about haleigh at all. as i mentioned before, i don't live in the US and subsequently i don't get the same news and chat programmes that you do. i don't know anything at all about that case, it's not being followed where i live or in the country of my birth for that matter. i have a family and personal commitments and only a certain amount of time to myself in any given day to spend here and it's not enough to follow more than one case on the net. having said that, i believe a landfill and a dumpster to be very different and i have no idea whatsoever when the dumpster you're talking about was or wasn't searched in relation to when the child went missing. i don't know anything about the case you're referencing, seagull so i can't comment on it.
every missing child is a tragedy but it's impossible for me to follow all their stories. i chose to follow this case for my own reasons which have nothing to do w/ the hype surrounding it.

shorts as thin as a T-shirt would be rather impractical imo and although i admit there are a lot of impractical children's clothing out there i think it would be fair to say that most shorts would be 'thicker' than a T-shirt. ITA w/ you - we would need to see and feel both items for ourselves, marina. my daughter has some 100% cotton pyjamas and i have a 100% cotton jacket - you would never believe they were made of the same material and the jacket would last a lot longer than the pyjamas imo.
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Thank you. No, I'm not implying she thought early on that her daughter was being raped and killed, if she was in fact taken by someone. IF she was kidnapped it appears to me that until later she thought she would be returned. Of course, we have no way of knowing what she was thinking after she was arrested because any good attorney would tell her no more talking. So, I just have to gather the facts as they are released to come to my final judgment.

There are shorts that are the same weight as tops but there is a good chance she wore twill or denim shorts, still 100% cotton. Yes, that weight would rot slower than a tshirt but not so differently that the body of the shirt would be completely disintegrated with the shorts easy to identify without touching, just looking. I know this is true because the officer wrote a description as it was seen upon arrival before picking things up and entering into evidence. One of those descriptions is on pg. 3416. The button was even still in place. This button is the clue that the shorts are likely twill or denim but I've had denim that is as lightweight as twill so would say they are probably not the full 15oz weight version. The summer shorts I've bought for my little boy are often the same weight as the tops, although the tops are usually knit and most of the shorts are woven. Only woven fabric has a button or snap, that I've seen.

Heleigh Cummings is a little girl that went missing the same day as Caylee's memorial service, still not found. She lives just North of Orlando. They searched a dumpster for her. The other little girl that was found killed is in California. They sifted the landfill looking for her just to make sure no stone was left unturned. Poor Caylee. Law enforcement didn't even find it worth their time to search the wooded area so near her home in July or August. On day one the Sutsuma police thoroughly checked the wooded area next to Haleigh's home. One of those things that makes you go hmmmm.
 
AquarianEssence said:
Poor Caylee. Law enforcement didn't even find it worth their time to search the wooded area so near her home in July or August. On day one the Sutsuma police thoroughly checked the wooded area next to Haleigh's home. One of those things that makes you go hmmmm.
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snipped

It's not right to put the blame on the Orlando Police, the Orange Co Sheriffs, or the FBI.
The blame needs to be placed where it belongs - on Casey. She knew where her baby was, all she had to do is tell the truth. All she did is waste everyone's time with her lies, and Cindy helped her along by creating even more chaos and confusion.
 
Has anyone talked about the Gatorade Bottle that was found with Caylee with the toilet paper roll in it with the possible syringe inside? Maybe the LE know exactly what Casey gave little Caylee and just maybe it had her fingerprints on it. What do you think?
 
whiteangora said:
snipped

It's not right to put the blame on the Orlando Police, the Orange Co Sheriffs, or the FBI.
The blame needs to be placed where it belongs - on Casey. She knew where her baby was, all she had to do is tell the truth. All she did is waste everyone's time with her lies, and Cindy helped her along by creating even more chaos and confusion.
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So following your line of reasoning then instead of expecting LE to provide the service of exposing what all perps aren't willing to reveal we should save our tax dollars and just wait for them to enter the confessional? It sure would save a lot of money I suppose. We wouldn't even need prosecutors. A couple of judges and some sentencing guidelines is all that would be required, along with just a few prisons to house those that are willing to trade their freedom for free room and board.
 
AquarianEssence said:
So following your line of reasoning then instead of expecting LE to provide the service of exposing what all perps aren't willing to reveal we should save our tax dollars and just wait for them to enter the confessional? It sure would save a lot of money I suppose. We wouldn't even need prosecutors. A couple of judges and some sentencing guidelines is all that would be required, along with just a few prisons to house those that are willing to trade their freedom for free room and board.
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LE formed their search criteria based on cell phone ping evidence. They did not do a search based on ever widening circles. With hindsight always being 20/20 it's amazing to me that some people are so quick to impeach LE for not immediately going to the site where she was eventually found.

I would also support your above stated justice model 100%. It would save a lot of time, money and BS. I'd be willing to oversee the whole thing. I would consider it a civic privilege.
 
I really thought this was a thread on the T-shirt found. Maybe someone needs to start a thread on what they feel is wrong with the state's case against KC and we can pick apart LE and SA there.
 
LambChop said:
I really thought this was a thread on the T-shirt found. Maybe someone needs to start a thread on what they feel is wrong with the state's case against KC and we can pick apart LE and SA there.
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OK, Back to the shirt. I do not believe that any serial killing rapist took Caylee's shirt home to keep as a trophy as was suggested in this thread. There is not ONE shred of evidence to suggest that anyone other than Casey murdered her baby. I do not think the missing part of the shirt will present any problems for the State when they present their case at trial.
 
whiteangora said:
OK, Back to the shirt. I do not believe that any serial killing rapist took Caylee's shirt home to keep as a trophy as was suggested in this thread. There is not ONE shred of evidence to suggest that anyone other than Casey murdered her baby. I do not think the missing part of the shirt will present any problems for the State when they present their case at trial.
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You are absolutely 100% correct. IMO
 
AquarianEssence said:
Thank you. No, I'm not implying she thought early on that her daughter was being raped and killed, if she was in fact taken by someone. IF she was kidnapped it appears to me that until later she thought she would be returned. Of course, we have no way of knowing what she was thinking after she was arrested because any good attorney would tell her no more talking. So, I just have to gather the facts as they are released to come to my final judgment.

There are shorts that are the same weight as tops but there is a good chance she wore twill or denim shorts, still 100% cotton. Yes, that weight would rot slower than a tshirt but not so differently that the body of the shirt would be completely disintegrated with the shorts easy to identify without touching, just looking. I know this is true because the officer wrote a description as it was seen upon arrival before picking things up and entering into evidence. One of those descriptions is on pg. 3416. The button was even still in place. This button is the clue that the shorts are likely twill or denim but I've had denim that is as lightweight as twill so would say they are probably not the full 15oz weight version. The summer shorts I've bought for my little boy are often the same weight as the tops, although the tops are usually knit and most of the shorts are woven. Only woven fabric has a button or snap, that I've seen.

Heleigh Cummings is a little girl that went missing the same day as Caylee's memorial service, still not found. She lives just North of Orlando. They searched a dumpster for her. The other little girl that was found killed is in California. They sifted the landfill looking for her just to make sure no stone was left unturned. Poor Caylee. Law enforcement didn't even find it worth their time to search the wooded area so near her home in July or August. On day one the Sutsuma police thoroughly checked the wooded area next to Haleigh's home. One of those things that makes you go hmmmm.
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Above bolded by me.

In Haleigh's case, the reason LE searched the woods next to her home is that Haleigh was taken from her home, her bed, in the middle of the night. In Caylee's case, KC left the Anthony home with Caylee 31 days before she was reported missing to LE, KC told LE that she dropped Caylee off at Sawgrass, then the story switched to Blanchard Park. I believe LE does their very best in those critical first hours and days with what is being reported to them. Why would they search the woods by Caylee's home those first few days when according to her mother, she dropped her off somewhere else 31 days before? Also KC and her family were insisting that Caylee was alive. And didn't LE or/and TES try to search that area? jmo
 
doogiesgirl said:
[/B]

Above bolded by me.

In Haleigh's case, the reason LE searched the woods next to her home is that Haleigh was taken from her home, her bed, in the middle of the night. In Caylee's case, KC left the Anthony home with Caylee 31 days before she was reported missing to LE, KC told LE that she dropped Caylee off at Sawgrass, then the story switched to Blanchard Park. I believe LE does their very best in those critical first hours and days with what is being reported to them. Why would they search the woods by Caylee's home those first few days when according to her mother, she dropped her off somewhere else 31 days before? Also KC and her family were insisting that Caylee was alive. And didn't LE or/and TES try to search that area? jmo
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I really don't understand the shock that I would suggest LE should have searched the surrounding area since it is common knowledge that children are usually found within a mile of home, statistically speaking. Now, they went after the mother within the first 24 hours or the 911 call so they surely should have expected this to at least be a possiblitiy. Even if local law enforcement wasn't aware of this common denominator, the FBI was.
 
AquarianEssence said:
Thank you. No, I'm not implying she thought early on that her daughter was being raped and killed, if she was in fact taken by someone. IF she was kidnapped it appears to me that until later she thought she would be returned. Of course, we have no way of knowing what she was thinking after she was arrested because any good attorney would tell her no more talking. So, I just have to gather the facts as they are released to come to my final judgment.

There are shorts that are the same weight as tops but there is a good chance she wore twill or denim shorts, still 100% cotton. Yes, that weight would rot slower than a tshirt but not so differently that the body of the shirt would be completely disintegrated with the shorts easy to identify without touching, just looking. I know this is true because the officer wrote a description as it was seen upon arrival before picking things up and entering into evidence. One of those descriptions is on pg. 3416. The button was even still in place. This button is the clue that the shorts are likely twill or denim but I've had denim that is as lightweight as twill so would say they are probably not the full 15oz weight version. The summer shorts I've bought for my little boy are often the same weight as the tops, although the tops are usually knit and most of the shorts are woven. Only woven fabric has a button or snap, that I've seen.

Heleigh Cummings is a little girl that went missing the same day as Caylee's memorial service, still not found. She lives just North of Orlando. They searched a dumpster for her. The other little girl that was found killed is in California. They sifted the landfill looking for her just to make sure no stone was left unturned. Poor Caylee. Law enforcement didn't even find it worth their time to search the wooded area so near her home in July or August. On day one the Sutsuma police thoroughly checked the wooded area next to Haleigh's home. One of those things that makes you go hmmmm.
Click to expand...


thank you for all the information on the clothing, my little ones had matching sets (shorts and tops) when they were tiny and i remember them being of the same material as you described, but yes, a button comes w/ more sturdy attire. i still think it's more likely that most of the T-shirt is missing due to some form of deterioration though. i can't think of another explanation that's plausible to me. i don't think i even want to find an explanation for why the shorts survived when the T-shirt didn't b/c it takes me mentally into the enviroment inside those bags and that's a place i honestly don't want to go.

i didn't know little haleigh had been missing for so very long. seven years ago, in a village near my home, two little girls vanished. thirteen days later their bodies were found, it felt like thirteen weeks. i don't want to know how it felt for their families or families in truly similar situations, it's too terrible to imagine. i can't really blame OSCO for not beginning their search at the anthony home and moving out in a web formation. this is an extremeley strange case, it's completely different to almost every other missing child case so i'm not entirely surprized their reaction to it was different also.i'm only angry w/ the cop who blew off RK.
 
You're welcome, Eddeva. Yes, I hate to put my imagination in there too but if I am ever going to form any kind of judgement based on all the facts I'll have to I suppose. Another important point about the missing clothing, LE must hope to find it too, not only the partial shirt, but the shoes too. Otherwise there is no point in taking all her clothes and shoes into evidence. No matter who killed her, any clothing on or with her would be expected to have come from her home. So there is nothing at all strange or incriminating that there are similar clothes or missing bedding at the home. What she had with her was left with her, except for the missing shirt and shoes. I am sure even if the LE forensic people ignore the shirt torn from its neck none of the defense forensic people will. At least I would hope not. They will likely address the issue of the rate of deterioration and differences between the shirt and shorts. It will also likely be apparent if the collor was torn away rather than deteriorated. The threads on the edge and holding the tag on will tell the whole story, along with the condition of the shorts stitching.
 
AquarianEssence said:
You're welcome, Eddeva. Yes, I hate to put my imagination in there too but if I am ever going to form any kind of judgement based on all the facts I'll have to I suppose. Another important point about the missing clothing, LE must hope to find it too, not only the partial shirt, but the shoes too. Otherwise there is no point in taking all her clothes and shoes into evidence. No matter who killed her, any clothing on or with her would be expected to have come from her home. So there is nothing at all strange or incriminating that there are similar clothes or missing bedding at the home. What she had with her was left with her, except for the missing shirt and shoes. I am sure even if the LE forensic people ignore the shirt torn from its neck none of the defense forensic people will. At least I would hope not. They will likely address the issue of the rate of deterioration and differences between the shirt and shorts. It will also likely be apparent if the collor was torn away rather than deteriorated. The threads on the edge and holding the tag on will tell the whole story, along with the condition of the shorts stitching.
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*my bold.
i'm not sure i understand you're reasoning there AE. i don't see how the absence of most of a T-shirt and a missing pair of shoes negate the rest of the evidence (are the shoes missing or was caylee just not wearing any?) and i don't see it as being so pivotal as you do. if the collar was obviously torn away the mystery is solved but people are just going to think that caylee was subjected to an horrific assault and the vast majority of them will attribute it to casey. if the feds say only the collar is left b/c the rest of the top was the weakest material in the bag then the mystery is solved and there is no missing evidence.
either way i'm not ready to think about what was inside those bags, probably b/c, as i've said, the T-shirt is not a pivotal thing to me.
 
eddeva said:
*my bold.
i'm not sure i understand you're reasoning there AE. i don't see how the absence of most of a T-shirt and a missing pair of shoes negate the rest of the evidence (are the shoes missing or was caylee just not wearing any?) and i don't see it as being so pivotal as you do. if the collar was obviously torn away the mystery is solved but people are just going to think that caylee was subjected to an horrific assault and the vast majority of them will attribute it to casey. if the feds say only the collar is left b/c the rest of the top was the weakest material in the bag then the mystery is solved and there is no missing evidence.
either way i'm not ready to think about what was inside those bags, probably b/c, as i've said, the T-shirt is not a pivotal thing to me.
Click to expand...

Lack of shoes could indicate that the child was taken from the bed and put into the car in the middle of the night. I agree. Lack of shoes proves nothing. Whatever KC says proves nothing. IMO
 
Okay, I've had my body armour reinforced now, so I'm ready to put forth another of my speciality 'what ifs'! :couch:

What if....Caylee did climb into the pool by herself? I think she was probably used to wearing a pull-up or diaper in the water, but knew that she was supposed to get undressed. I'm sure she could probably manage quite easily to take off her shorts (had done it loads of times I expect), but a T shirt is often a tricky little number for a toddler to manoeuvre out of without assistance. IF Caylee climbed into the pool with just a pull-up and T shirt on, then the shorts would not have been soaked in chlorinated water, and would not have then baked for days in a scorching car trunk - but the T shirt would have!

It's not for no reason that swimwear manufacturers warn purchasers to always rinse their swimsuits after each use!

Could this account for the mysterious near total rotting of the T shirt, but apparently good preservation of the shorts? :waitasec:

Right - one at a time with the sharp sticks please! :poke:
 
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