Trayvon Martin's Autopsy

jjenny · May 18, 2012

2goldfish said:
quote from your linked article

do yall think that if you were sitting over the top of me beating my head into the pavement and I was in fear of my life and shot you, the trajectory of the bullet would be horizontal? I'm trying to picture the strange contortions while in terror of my very existence and I cant see it any way unless both of us were standing? someone help me see.

That article got so much wrong, it isn't even funny. You are discussing something that claims there was a bruise and blood on the head, whereas the autopsy list injuries as bullet wound and abrasion to a fourth left finger. The handwriting on the diagram says "brown" and "short black" not "bruise" and "blood spot." The direction of projection in the autopsy is listed as "directly from front to back" not "horizontal."

2goldfish · May 18, 2012

jjenny said:
That article got so much wrong, it isn't even funny. You are discussing something that claims there was a bruise and blood on the head, whereas the autopsy list injuries as bullet wound and abrasion to a fourth left finger. The handwriting on the diagram says "brown" and "short black" not "bruise" and "blood spot." The direction of projection in the autopsy is listed as "directly from front to back" not "horizontal."

if you can enlighten me, please do

I freely admit I cannot and will not read autopsy reports, I cannot bear them.

although "directly from front to back" sounds synonymous with horizontally...what does the actual report say about distance away when shot, or does it?

K_Z · May 18, 2012

tehcloser said:
Diagrams also note Martin was hurt in the fight: blood on his head, a bruise around his eye, scarring on both hands.

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/05/18/zimmerman-atty-dont-judge-by-piecemeal-evidence/

Boy-- I wonder who interpreted THAT for CBS? I predict a retraction will be in order. Talk about getting it wrong! Did they even look at the narrative AR?

That's not just an error or embarrassing-- it's inflammatory, IMO.

cityslick · May 18, 2012

2goldfish said:
if you can enlighten me, please do I freely admit I cannot and will not read autopsy reports, I cannot bear them.

although "directly from front to back" sounds synonymous with horizontally...what does the actual report say about distance away when shot, or does it?

The report say intermediate but other articles are wide ranging in distance, anywhere from 1-18 inches. I have heard a few say that the gun had to be very close, basically touching TM's clothing, to cause the stippling that it did.

I'm guessing intermediate is after 'point blank', which is basically having the gun pressed against you.

Elley Mae · May 18, 2012

cityslick said:
The report say intermediate but other articles are wide ranging in distance, anywhere from 1-18 inches. I have heard a few say that the gun had to be very close, basically touching TM's clothing, to cause the stippling that it did.

I'm guessing intermediate is after 'point blank', which is basically having the gun pressed against you.

http://www.pathologyexpert.com/boards/forensics/gsw.htm
bbm
Contact: muzzle of gun touches target
- Tight: fouling in tissue, muzzle stamp
- Loose: fouling on skin and in tissue, searing
Close: <6" Stippling & Fouling
Intermediate: 6-30" Stippling
Distant: >30" Neither
(Distances approximate and depend on many variables. For accurate assessment need to test fire weapon with ammunition used.)

DebFrmHell · May 19, 2012

KZ, you are familiar with guns. That odd little mark on TMs finger. I am wondering your opinion if it could have been caused by the slide since its description reminds me of a pinching-type of wound.

We know they swabbed the exterior of the gun but I am wondering if they broke it down to swab the interiors where the slide action might make contact with skin.

The only way I can see this happening however, since it is on the exterior of his knckle, is if he was attempting to swipe away that handgun. It is such a strange small wound.

ETA: or pulling his hand upwards. (waist toward face)

RANCH · May 20, 2012

Sensei said:
Based on what we know from the autopsey report, it appears highly unlikely that Trayvon was shot while sitting astraddle GZ and attempting to bang his head since the gunshot was directly front to back at intermediate range....
so please explain how a shot went directly straight through from front to back, not in an upward trajectory, and how GZ managed to get enough separation from TM that the shot was from intermediate range, how did he get even 2 to 4 inches of separation from the gun to Travon, let alone 5 or 6 to 10 inches.... this is what I would like to know....do you think maybe he held the gun up in the air to get a straight through shot during the struggle?

I don't think Trayvon was shot while sitting on GZ, not from that information. IMO JMHO and stuff.

Sensei I brought this over to the autopsy thread as it seems more appropriate.

I spotted this FDLE report on Trayvons light grey Nike sweatshirt and his dark grey hooded sweatshirt. It states that both holes are consistent with a contact shot. What are your thoughts on this?

page 122
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

Sensei · May 20, 2012

RANCH said:
Sensei I brought this over to the autopsy thread as it seems more appropriate.

I spotted this FDLE report on Trayvons light grey Nike sweatshirt and his dark grey hooded sweatshirt. It states that both holes are consistent with a contact shot. What are your thoughts on this?

page 122
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

A contact shot would certainly make more sense considering the story that we have heard about how the incident happened, so I guess that the lab that analyzed this and the Medical examiner are going to have to decide if this was a contact shot or an intermediate one, and at trial they are going to have to justify their conclusions...I imagine that the Defense is going to say contact, and the Prosecutor is likely to say intermediate....the whole situation bothers me, from the things that were NOT done the night of the incident to the things that were done and then done over...but for me the one consistancy is the inconsistancy in the proxy statements by GZ's spokes people and family who seem to change the story as other evidence comes out, and I am still bothered by how you get a directly horizontal path of gunshot wound from the position that they still claim to be happening when the shot was fired. There are a lot of things that bother me, but I really do feel as if the family and now the public deserves the truth...not a narration but the honest truth whichever way it goes, and I don't think we have heard it yet in my opinion.

stmarysmead · May 20, 2012

K_Z said:
Boy-- I wonder who interpreted THAT for CBS? I predict a retraction will be in order. Talk about getting it wrong! Did they even look at the narrative AR?

That's not just an error or embarrassing-- it's inflammatory, IMO.

Another gem for the Monstrous Media thread. They are just desparate to get GZ.

RANCH · May 20, 2012

The classification of the entrance wound as being "intermediate" is puzzling to me. The autopsy reports say's this about the wound.

"It consists of a 3/8" diameter round entrance defect with soot, ring abrasion, and a 2x2 inch area of stippling".

The fact that there's soot present suggests a close range shot.

GUNSHOT WOUNDS

Definitions:
Fouling: Soot, residue of completely burned powder, dust-like, wipes off
Stippling (tattooing): Unburned powder and debris, causing punctate abrasions on target. Larger and heavier so travels farther. Does not wipe off.
Margin of abrasion: Characteristic of enterance wound but can be seen in shored exit.

Range of Fire:
Contact: muzzle of gun touches target
- Tight: fouling in tissue, muzzle stamp
- Loose: fouling on skin and in tissue, searing
Close: <6" Stippling & Fouling
Intermediate: 6-30" Stippling
Distant: >30" Neither
(Distances approximate and depend on many variables. For accurate assessment need to test fire weapon with ammunition used.)

http://www.pathologyexpert.com/boards/forensics/gsw.htm

Page 126
http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

saguaro · May 20, 2012

K_Z said:
Boy-- I wonder who interpreted THAT for CBS? I predict a retraction will be in order. Talk about getting it wrong! Did they even look at the narrative AR?

That's not just an error or embarrassing-- it's inflammatory, IMO.

Perhaps the fired NBC producers got jobs at CBS?

Concerned Papa · May 20, 2012

Sensei said:
Based on what we know from the autopsey report, it appears highly unlikely that Trayvon was shot while sitting astraddle GZ and attempting to bang his head since the gunshot was directly front to back at intermediate range....
so please explain how a shot went directly straight through from front to back, not in an upward trajectory, and how GZ managed to get enough separation from TM that the shot was from intermediate range, how did he get even 2 to 4 inches of separation from the gun to Travon, let alone 5 or 6 to 10 inches.... this is what I would like to know....do you think maybe he held the gun up in the air to get a straight through shot during the struggle?

I don't think Trayvon was shot while sitting on GZ, not from that information. IMO JMHO and stuff.

It does seem improbable based on the MEs report.

From pg 127:

Notice the entry point and it's relation to an approximate center line of arms extended? It's about where you could expect the entry of an intermediate range, direct pass thru shot from a face to face shooter's extended arm who was 3" shorter than the victim.

From pg 131 of the ME's report:

Using the same center line reference point, a direct pass thru shot from a shooter underneath the victim seems improbable without some degree of an upward angular path of the bullet.

K_Z · May 20, 2012

An additional comment as I've pondered the autopsy. The weight of the heart documented "seemed" small to me, given his adult size-- even owing to the fact that there was a great deal of damage to the right ventricle. That number has been bugging me. I wanted to put it in perspective. So I looked up typical adult normal heart weights at autopsy, on several sites. This is a good one:

http://www.pathology.med.ohio-state.edu/residents/autopsy.asp
Heart:
Males: 270 - 280 grams
Females: 250 - 280 grams

Trayvon's heart weight was 200 grams at autopsy. Doing a little math, approximately 25% of his entire heart muscle is missing-- destroyed by the GSW. Sadly, that really puts the damage into perspective, I think.

One fourth of his entire heart was simply...... "missing."

Sherbie · May 21, 2012

Papa, would the following factors make a difference? The length of each person's torso (not just their height); the arm-length of the person on bottom; how far forward or back the person on top is sitting; and the degree of forward lean of the person on top. Thanks so much for all your hard work!

LiveLaughLuv · May 21, 2012

Reader said:
I had posted this on another thread earlier in a response to Concerned Papa:

Now that we have the ME's report that the shot was straight into the chest, I see I was wrong in thinking it could have been from L to R to do all that damage. But I am wondering if all this damage to the heart and lungs could be because of the use of the hollow point bullet. Don't they shatter and cause more damage to the body? The ME found fragments. Could that be what caused such damage to Trayvon?

I heard media say his left ventricle was shredded due to the hollow point bullet..that means to me, TM did not utter those silly words GZ claims...You got me? No...I don't believe that happened..I also heard them say, the bullet stayed in his chest, there was not exit wound...also heard he was inches from TM when he shot that gun...poor TM...his death would have been avoided had GZ stayed in his vehicle...

RANCH · May 21, 2012

Sherbie said:
Papa, would the following factors make a difference? The length of each person's torso (not just their height); the arm-length of the person on bottom; how far forward or back the person on top is sitting; and the degree of forward lean of the person on top. Thanks so much for all your hard work!

You make some good points Sherbie. How do we know the angle of the gun when fired? During the struggle it could have been pointed in almost any direction. JMO.

LambChop · May 21, 2012

LiveLaughLuv said:
I heard media say his left ventricle was shredded due to the hollow point bullet..that means to me, TM did not utter those silly words GZ claims...You got me? No...I don't believe that happened..I also heard them say, the bullet stayed in his chest, there was not exit wound...also heard he was inches from TM when he shot that gun...poor TM...his death would have been avoided had GZ stayed in his vehicle...

The bullet shattered, hollow point, and I'm guessing that is why there is no exit wound. Both lungs collapsed. No way he could have formed a sentence, much less a flippant remark such as you got me. jmo

LambChop · May 21, 2012

RANCH said:
You make some good points Sherbie. How do we know the angle of the gun when fired? During the struggle it could have been pointed in almost any direction. JMO.

Because the path was straight as if fired from a standing position, not in the position of lying on your back and firing at someone who is sitting on you. Lying on the ground (as GZ claims) the bullet would have had an upward path. In order for a straight path, IMO, wouldn't GZ's arm have to be level while pointing at TM's chest? TM's heart exploded so he dropped wherever he was and when turned over his hands were placed one inside the other so no one slid out from under this body apparently. The body can't lie. It is what it is. SA already knows what happened regarding the shooting of TM and that is why there are charges. Gilbreath admitted he did not know how it started but you can bet your bippy they know how it ended and TM did not have to die. jmo

RANCH · May 21, 2012

LambChop said:
Because the path was straight as if fired from a standing position, not in the position of lying on your back and firing at someone who is sitting on you. Lying on the ground (as GZ claims) the bullet would have had an upward path. In order for a straight path, IMO, wouldn't GZ's arm have to be level while pointing at TM's chest? TM's heart exploded so he dropped wherever he was and when turned over his hands were placed one inside the other so no one slid out from under this body apparently. The body can't lie. It is what it is. SA already knows what happened regarding the shooting of TM and that is why there are charges. Gilbreath admitted he did not know how it started but you can bet your bippy they know how it ended and TM did not have to die. jmo

Yes the shot went straight in Trayvons body. But what was the position of his body and what was the angle of the gun when fired? I can swivel my hand alone quite a bit by just moving my wrist.

LambChop · May 21, 2012

RANCH said:
Yes the shot went straight in Trayvons body. But what was the position of his body and what was the angle of the gun when fired? I can swivel my hand alone quite a bit by just moving my wrist.

I think what some posters are trying to tell us is that the wound does not match GZ's story. No matter what he could have done with his wrist. TM did not sit up after he was shot, turn and then fall face forward onto the ground stretched out full length as he was found, from a sitting position. His heart exploded and he dropped right where he was at that point. jmo

Trayvon Martin's Autopsy

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