Dogs

coastal said:

Also, I just heard on the news (will bring a link) that the dogs tracked Amber's scent to the Pala Library, and more specifically, to a video of "Friday the 13th", which was Amber's favorite movie, and to a book about wolves.

WTH?! I wonder if the bad guy lured her with those items? The news report said that the searchers asked the librarian if Amber had checked out those items, but the librarian said "no".

>>>snip

Gardner was registered as a sex offender because of his 2000 conviction for molesting a girl after luring her to his house with the Robin Williams movie "Patch Adams," about a doctor who uses humor to treat patients.

<<<snip

Source: Why Gardner Eluded Suspicion | NBC San Diego
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local-beat/John-Gardner-Charmed-Some-.html

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:saythat: This "missing link" has been driving me crazy! I can't produce the video I saw, because it's been removed (link from my web history:

http://www.cbs8.com/global/video/flash/popupplayer.asp?vt1=l&d1=0&ClipId1=mms://a719.l5912456718.c59124.n.lm.akamaistream.net/D/719/59124/v0001/reflector:56718&LiveURI=mms://a719.l5912456718.c59124.n.lm.akamaistream.net/D/719/59124/v0001/reflector:56718&h1=CBS%208%20Live&at1=News%20-%20Live%20Stream&LiveURITitle=CBS%208%20Live&LaunchPageAdTag=News%20-%20Live%20Stream&fvCatNo=undefined&secure=undefined&akPort=undefined&akProfile=undefined&rnd=7385328)

"video you are trying to view is unavailable"

I did find a comment on a print story at signonsandiego.com which at least suggests that I didn't imagine what I heard (which I was starting to think) :

>>>
Search dogs came close to finding Amber
BY J. HARRY JONES, UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
MONDAY, MARCH 8, 2010 AT 3:30 P.M.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/08/search-dogs-came-close-seeking-amber-last-year/

(story mentions dogs tracking Amber to the "Pala area", but no specifics)

Comments:
(scroll page)

ralincv 03/08/2010 05:29 PM in reply to Tygh


<<<

This comment suggests News8 reported it, which agrees with my web history. Further research found me the following blog post:

Lawrence Olmstead, Hollywood Private Investigations
Help us find Amber Dubois

http://lawrenceolmstead.com/index.p...d=56:help-us-find-amber-dubois&catid=1:latest

>>>snip

...In August, 2009 we were contacted by Amber&#8217;s grandmother, Attorney, Sheila Welch. She asked if we could help locate Amber. Within the month we went through hundreds of tips submitted to the family via their website at http://www.bringamberhome.com . We followed up on every single one and started building our next phase based on what tipsters gave us.


Last Updated on Thursday, 11 March 2010 11:20

<<<snip

Bold mine. I find it interesting that, although I was searching for information to back up my own earlier observations, what I found really better supports exactly what sarx, Ghostwheel, and JTSYS have been saying all through this thread. I didn't doubt you, really! But, I also know what I heard.

It looks to me as if the information about dogs tracking Amber to the Pala Library, and to specific things there, was either mis-reported, in which case there should be a retraction; factually incorrect, in which case the PI's blog post is remarkable in it's similarity to what imagined I heard; or, it is (or isn't) part of the investigation into Amber's murder, and LE doesn't want us talk about it. This last possibility makes the most sense to me, so I'm going to leave it alone, and try to trust that I wasn't supposed to capture that video for a good reason.

Just wanted to clear that up.

I appreciate all the information about your wonderful dogs! Amazing! Thanks so much for doing what you do!

sarx said:

I hate to be the one to say it, but the family was taken advantage of. The oldest confirmed successful trail ever run by a canine was 13 days old (and this was under favorable conditions, damp and cool in the pacific northwest). There is the possibility that at some point given the right conditions that might be extended by a few days, but not 6 months. I didn't misread anything right? The dogs were hired in August, she went missing in February.

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Obviously you are grossly mistaken, but that's not a bad thing, right? For more people to now be aware that this is possible by dogs that are specifically trained to do this is a GOOD thing. More LE are aware; more family's of those who have missing loved ones know; and now more search and rescue teams can begin lengthening their training trails.

sarx said:

The article above says they were from Virginia and Maine. This article says they were from Texas.

http://law.rightpundits.com/?p=1307

Do we even know for a fact this info was given to LE back in August or is it possible that they're coming forward now and saying "hey, we went there". Just trying to put the pieces together.

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As LE was present with all of the work that was done, LE knew immediately what was done. Verbal reports via an exit meeting were conducted; and shortly thereafter, formal reports were given to LE from the handlers.

K9-Chaser said:

Obviously you are grossly mistaken, but that's not a bad thing, right? For more people to now be aware that this is possible by dogs that are specifically trained to do this is a GOOD thing. More LE are aware; more family's of those who have missing loved ones know; and now more search and rescue teams can begin lengthening their training trails.

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People are aware of what? These dogs reportedly tracked her to the Pala library. I don't think there is any information to confirm she was ever in the Pala library, dead or alive.

K9-Chaser said:

As LE was present with all of the work that was done, LE knew immediately what was done. Verbal reports via an exit meeting were conducted; and shortly thereafter, formal reports were given to LE from the handlers.

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And? After these dogs supposedly tracked her to the Pala library, the body was not found. The body was not next to the library, but quite a distance away.
What is the evidence she ever was in the library?

JustToSeeYouSmile said:

Different dogs do different things with different handlers. But lets keep the facts straight? I understand the family requested the dogs.

They were just confirmed some horrible news about their child/grandchild. Maybe lets have a moment of silence for the family?

Also, does someone have confirmation of the dogs being 'hired' , is as far as money was exchanged for services? Many times, search teams will volunteer their dogs with no cost whatsoever to families in need. Just sayin.

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The teams were not given any monies for their work. What was provided was the cost to fly to CA and for their lodging. They were not 'paid'.

jjenny said:

I can't imagine anyone taking a dead body to the library, that's for sure.

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The dogs were on 'live scent' only.

K9-Chaser said:

The dogs were on 'live scent' only.

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Then what is the evidence Amber ever went to the Pala Library? I find it very hard to believe a kidnapper would take their kidnap victim to the library.

Ghostwheel said:

Depends. If they tracked her to the library area, it would indicate the area she was in. If they actually tracked her to a movie and book (first I heard of that, so I don't know how accurate it is), it would indicate she went that far alive and possibly willingly.

Mind you, I'm not sure I believe all this, just saying that:
If there is a report from August 2009 that states that these two dogs tracked Amber's scent to the Pala Library, and now her remains are found in the Pala area, less than 5 miles away, that is too weird to be a coincidence. Either the dogs really did some tracking, there was other information that lead the dog handlers to bring the dogs to Pala, the handlers are making up that they tracked to Pala (as in: it was never mentioned until now) or somebody found out the dogs tracked her to Pala, and moved the body to the area. If anyone else has some other reasons why this would not be a coincidence, I'd like some suggestions, because I do not believe:
Dogs just happen to track to the same area where a body is found.
Hikers happen upon a body that has been missing for a year when it has just come back into the public eye.

I just don't. But I'm willing to be convinced, if someone has a good reason.

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Well, it's a fact what the dog's did - there were witnesses for the entire trailing, including law enforcement.

JustToSeeYouSmile said:

Understand all of the above. Wondering however if there were different dogs used for different purposes. Did I miss a link to what type of dogs were used and for what purpose? Because the reporting seems inaccurate. And I would hate for people in need to think that dogs are useless..... A narc dog is awesome for a narc situation. But sometimes, the narc hit you expected your dog to hit on, turns out to need an HRD dog, or a trailer. KWIM?

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The work that these dogs did there in CA was live scent trailing.

JustToSeeYouSmile said:

But the dogs would have to have been HAD to have been taken to a certain spot and put on a certain task. Am I completely misunderstanding?

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The dogs were started at Amber's home using Amber's scent --- live scent.

JustToSeeYouSmile said:

Do we have a source for the 'paid' aspect, besides the 'using donations' from the one article? Sometimes donations are donations-in-kind.

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Hopefully clarified already, but travel expenses to fly to CA and for lodging.

sarx said:

Tink, it was the use of cadaver dogs that got the teams in and found Chelsea. Don't want to derail this thread, but I'd be happy to explain whatever you want. Knowledge is power and I love being able to help people understand just what dogs are capable of, as well as their limitations.

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As would I Tink and all.

I'm still not seeing what is going on and how I'm grossly mistaken. Nothing has changed. The dogs did not find this girl, they did not lead up to her alive or dead. There is no verification that they were working a six month old trail, or that they were on in fact because they did not lead to anything that can be verified as hers or her traveled path. No big deal, happens all the time.

Edited-I do not want to see this thread turn into some back and forth thing and lose sight of all that is going on and all the tragedies that hit this board every day. This thread had pretty much come to a close. I do not want to see this derailed. I suspect we will see this one fall off the page again.

Lets see live scent trailed within half a mile of the missing girl from 25 miles away is a live trail....they did not find any other live trails and the article states she never left there(palo ) -no exit trail -given more time im sure the area would have been further searched-the acticles indicate the team left the palo area after that. Next step may have been to bring in cadaver dogs-but I wasnt there so looks like they got very close. I Think this was the only good intel provided to that point. and the article also says the dogs went north on the road away from the library 3 miles -she was appx 3.5 miles up that rd.

rescuemedic said:

Lets see live scent trailed within half a mile of the missing girl from 25 miles away is a live trail....they did not find any other live trails and the article states she never left there(palo ) -no exit trail -given more time im sure the area would have been further searched-the acticles indicate the team left the palo area after that. Next step may have been to bring in cadaver dogs-but I wasnt there so looks like they got very close. I Think this was the only good intel provided to that point. and the article also says the dogs went north on the road away from the library 3 miles -she was appx 3.5 miles up that rd.

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Can you point us to the articles where it talks about them getting within a half mile of where she was discovered? Or maybe the handler herself can help here as the media gets things wrong so often. I find a lot back from August talking about ending at the Pala Library, nothing showing anything else. It wasn't until she was found that all of the sudden their was the talk about going 3 miles up the road, and nothing I found verified to be true (doesn't mean it's not there).

If we're working with the 3 mile up the road on a live trail scenario that makes for some interesting thought. Until we know how long she has been dead we don't know how old that trail was. It also would mean that she was alive to the library and then continued on alive up to that point (where the body was found) where she would have been murdered. Again, working with the comments about the dogs "going nuts" around the houses on the reservation she then also presumably was not taken straight from the school to the site, but instead spent time on the reservation, either voluntarily or by force. Makes for a lot to think about.

sarx said:

I'm still not seeing what is going on and how I'm grossly mistaken. Nothing has changed. The dogs did not find this girl, they did not lead up to her alive or dead. There is no verification that they were working a six month old trail, or that they were on in fact because they did not lead to anything that can be verified as hers or her traveled path. No big deal, happens all the time.

Edited-I do not want to see this thread turn into some back and forth thing and lose sight of all that is going on and all the tragedies that hit this board every day. This thread had pretty much come to a close. I do not want to see this derailed. I suspect we will see this one fall off the page again.

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No one is saying that the dogs found Amber. The dogs were used as a tool and a resource to help find her. Information (like in a case like this) is garnered from what the dogs do, then this information is used to further the investigation.

rescuemedic said:

Lets see live scent trailed within half a mile of the missing girl from 25 miles away is a live trail....they did not find any other live trails and the article states she never left there(palo ) -no exit trail -given more time im sure the area would have been further searched-the acticles indicate the team left the palo area after that. Next step may have been to bring in cadaver dogs-but I wasnt there so looks like they got very close. I Think this was the only good intel provided to that point. and the article also says the dogs went north on the road away from the library 3 miles -she was appx 3.5 miles up that rd.

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Point well taken. Getting to Pala with live scent and not able to get an exit trail (live scent) out, it would have been good to have been able to work there longer. This would mean more live scent work, then working cadaver - however, you can't just start going on private property to do the work, whether live scent or cadaver. Then there's also the thought if after getting to Pala, what if the handler's were asked to stop so as to not jeopardize an investigation that would be started ... or something to that effect.

Something like this happened to me recently - I wanted to continue working on a case but was told not to because in this case, it would have meant having more LE for search safety, etc., (don't need to elaborate more on this), and the person was located 1/2 mile or so ahead. That's where the big "ARGH" comes out! :banghead:

But just something to think about - it's not that the team failed to find Amber - they were stopped from continuing their work because it might hamper the investigation which needed to take place in Pala. Whether they would or wouldn't have found her can't be debated - no one knows. If Amber's remains were there at the time of the team's work there, and more work would have been allowed to have been done, my answer would be "yes".

K9-Chaser said:

Point well taken. Getting to Pala with live scent and not able to get an exit trail (live scent) out, it would have been good to have been able to work there longer. This would mean more live scent work, then working cadaver - however, you can't just start going on private property to do the work, whether live scent or cadaver. Then there's also the thought if after getting to Pala, what if the handler's were asked to stop so as to not jeopardize an investigation that would be started ... or something to that effect.

Something like this happened to me recently - I wanted to continue working on a case but was told not to because in this case, it would have meant having more LE for search safety, etc., (don't need to elaborate more on this), and the person was located 1/2 mile or so ahead. That's where the big "ARGH" comes out! :banghead:

But just something to think about - it's not that the team failed to find Amber - they were stopped from continuing their work because it might hamper the investigation which needed to take place in Pala. Whether they would or wouldn't have found her can't be debated - no one knows. If Amber's remains were there at the time of the team's work there, and more work would have been allowed to have been done, my answer would be "yes".

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Who stopped them from continuing their work? There has been nothing reported on somebody asking the dog team to stop their work. The dogs did not find Amber or her body. And there is nothing has been reported to support the idea that Amber was actually in any of the places these dogs pointed out. As far as I know no one reported seeing her at that library.

jjenny said:

Who stopped them from continuing their work? There has been nothing reported on somebody asking the dog team to stop their work. The dogs did not find Amber or her body. And there is nothing has been reported to support the idea that Amber was actually in any of the places these dogs pointed out. As far as I know no one reported seeing her at that library.

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It wasn't said that the dogs found Amber or her body. Also, in general, continuing to do some more extensive work, would require working on private properties which you just can't do. Not everything is reported or able to be reported on, including suspending the work in that area so as to not impede the investigation. And speaking of that, it is very difficult when handlers do their work then leave the area, then other people speak for what the dogs did ... This has happened a lot with this case for sure.