Penn State Sandusky Trial #12 (GUILTY-post verdict discussion)

BigCat · Jul 4, 2012

New info from the Chronicle of Higher Education:

Top Pennsylvania State University officials held a three-hour meeting to discuss Jerry Sandusky in 2001 over concerns about the former coach's behavior with a boy in the football showers. A law-firm billing record from that conversation describes a "report of suspected child abuse," according to a person with knowledge of an independent investigation into the matter.

http://chronicle.com/article/Records-Raise-More-Questions/132725/

J. J. in Phila · Jul 4, 2012

Good post, BigCat:

I was again struck be this statement from the article. It was the Paterno family spokesman: "From the beginning, Joe Paterno warned against a rush to judgment in this case."

The problem is, as we wait, the information keeps getting worse.

passionflower · Jul 4, 2012

I agree,things seem to be getting worse. IMOO I think this is the tip of the iceberg and more cover up, lies and people exposed.

back2back19 · Jul 4, 2012

J. J. in Phila said:
Good post, BigCat:

I was again struck be this statement from the article. It was the Paterno family spokesman: "From the beginning, Joe Paterno warned against a rush to judgment in this case."

The problem is, as we wait, the information keeps getting worse.

Yup, it really does seem to be getting worse and worse. It's just so appalling. Like it wasn't bad enough to begin with... :/

Pensfan · Jul 4, 2012

J. J. in Phila said:
Ah, no. RFG was at a press conference for the multicounty case, along with other DA's in the area. Neither he nor the Centre county DA's Office worked on the case or had any involvement with it.

I realize this. I will be very specific. I was trying to emphasize WHY Corbett would have been interested in knowing the facts surrounding Gricar's disappearance which would have given Corbett knowledge in 2005 about Sandusky's crime from 1998.

J. J. in Phila said:
Ah, Corbett was a defense attorney at the time representing a client. That was there relationship.

I realize that. Ditto above response.

J. J. in Phila said:
Under PA law, the only way that the AG can become involved is if the local DA has a conflict of interest or claims his office lacks the resources. Two DA's, of different parties, declined to claim either. I declined to cite a conflict of interest until Gricar's involvement in the Sandusky case was revealed.

In 2009 and until late 2010, nobody at the AG's office knew about the 1998 incident.

In 2005, investigators in Gricar's case would have told AG Corbett about Gricar's knowledge of Sandusky's crime. It had to be considered as a factor in Gricar's disappearance.

J. J. in Phila said:
Madeira, the DA at the time did not know when he sent the case out. There were no records of Sandusky in the DA's Office.

I agree.

J. J. in Phila said:
The issue was that Gricar didn't like Corbett, no longer a prosecutor, representing a client as a defense attorney. Corbett was holding a position, Chair of the PA Commission on Crime and Delinquency (PCCD), that doled out federal funds to police, prosecutors, and public defenders. It didn't prosecute or investigate and Corbett had one vote, out of several dozen people. The PCCD meets for several hours twice a year.

The issue was that Gricar lost the case, well, the charges were reduced, and wanted to whine about it. He did within a few weeks of not prosecuting Sandusky. He did more to complain about Corbett, who was a defense attorney, than he did to prosecute Sandusky.
(Remember me saying it made Gricar look bad.)

First, what makes you think that any of the TSM board members had any idea what Sandusky was doing?

I DON'T THINK THAT! GO BACK AND READ MY POSTS WHEN THIS STORY HIT THE HEADLINES. I WAS THE ONLY PERSON SUPPORTING THE GENEROUS BENEFACTORS/BOC MEMBERS FOR WEEKS ON WS.

J. J. in Phila said:
They were not involved in the day to day running of the group. The executive director was, but not the board as a whole.

Agreed. They are generous people that sit on multiple boards and give millions of their own money away to such charities. God bless them!

J. J. in Phila said:
Second, going after Paterno in 2010 might have been a political minus for Corbett, but not TSM. They never had the public profile of Penn State or Paterno.

Didn't you read Websleuth posters ripping TSM's BOC for weeks? The BOC was lucky that they somehow escaped the public's wrath. The BOC at MHS were not so fortunate when Charles Koons was arrested.

J. J. in Phila said:
I'd also question why these members would not be just as appalled at Sandusky's actions as everyone else was.

Yes, IMO, they would have been appalled. Ditto above answers.

J. J. in Phila said:
Third, until late 2010, none of the other victims were known. The Centre County DA's Office didn't have the records of it.

I certainly hope not. I hope an investigation into Centre County's CPS occurs next to verify that they didn't refuse to act/report to the DA's office Sandusky's victims' reports. (Several years ago, The Dept of Justice actually took over control of CPS in Washington County because of extreme corruption. I have heard that two other county CPS offices may also be investigated by that federal agency.)

J. J. in Phila · Jul 4, 2012

Pensfan said:
I realize this. I will be very specific. I was trying to emphasize WHY Corbett would have been interested in knowing the facts surrounding Gricar's disappearance which would have given Corbett knowledge in 2005 about Sandusky's crime from 1998.

I realize that. Ditto above response.

In 2005, investigators in Gricar's case would have told AG Corbett about Gricar's knowledge of Sandusky's crime. It had to be considered as a factor in Gricar's disappearance.

BBM

Until late 2010, the AG's Office, Corbett, had no idea about 1998, Victim 6, or Gricar. Nobody, including me, was looking at any cases RFG did not prosecute. The BPD had no idea about 1998. This thing popped up when they started looking at activities on campus.

Maybe it came out in the SPM review panel of Gricar; I don't know. That is a possibility, however.

Okay, on the board; we're in agreement that it wouldn't be a board coverup, I take it?

I certainly hope not. I hope an investigation into Centre County's CPS occurs next to verify that they didn't refuse to act/report to the DA's office Sandusky's victims' reports. (Several years ago, The Dept of Justice actually took over control of CPS in Washington County because of extreme corruption. I have heard that two other county CPS offices may also be investigated by that federal agency.)

The only involvement with the DA's Office was 1998, and there is no record of it. They couldn't forward any files because there were not any files; that was not unusual. There is no way that anyone could have known prior to discovering the file, unless someone remembered it and told them.

Even if someone did, there was no focus on it in 2005-10. Everyone knew (well, they thought they knew) what a hard hitting DA Gricar was. If he didn't file charges, there would be a good reason; everybody thought this. That was the general impression of Ray Gricar; that was my impression of Ray Gricar. Heck, that was Schreffler's impression of Ray Gricar.

Corbett didn't know about 1998 until 2010; Madeira didn't know about it until 2011. The Bellefonte Police Department didn't know about it until at least 2010. I didn't know about it until 2011.

I still think RFG's decision in 1998 was just bad judgment, exceptionally, horrifically, terrible judgment. Had Sandusky not been indicted, we wouldn't have known about it at all.

Reader · Jul 4, 2012

Our View | Expose all with culpability in Sandusky scandal

Jerry Sandusky now sits in the Centre County jail, convicted by a jury of his peers of sexually abusing 10 young boys over a 15-year period.

Will Sandusky be the only one who pays a high price in connection with his misdeeds?

What penalties are yet to be confronted by Penn State, its top officials and others who may have been positioned to stop the abuse years ago but who chose to turn away rather than take action?

Read more here: http://www.centredaily.com/2012/07/01/3248050/anxious-region-watching-waiting.html#storylink=cpy

J. J. in Phila · Jul 4, 2012

back2back19 said:
Yup, it really does seem to be getting worse and worse. It's just so appalling. Like it wasn't bad enough to begin with... :/

And, as always:

Central Pennsylvania Gothic.

It keeps on getting worse. Even if the Three Stooges were acting out of completely altruistic purposes, really thought they were being "humane," it blew up in their faces. Good Lord, even saying that they wanted Sandusky to get help doesn't mean anything if he doesn't get any help.

Maybe, this could be at least partly justifiable if someone would have forced him to get help, and made sure he wasn't around young boys.

(Yes, I'm in full rant today!)

Reader · Jul 4, 2012

Penn State Scandal: Louis Freeh Report Could Mean NCAA Action

http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-footba...n-state-scandal-ncaa-investigation/in/2304037

After the bombshell dropped Saturday that the late Joe Paterno may have been involved in the Penn State administration's coverup of the Jerry Sandusky child abuse scandal, more bad news is coming for the athletic department in Happy Valley.

According to a report in the Chronicle of Higher Education, the independent investigation led by Louis Freeh has honed in on, among other things, special treatment the athletic department sought for some university athletes. According to a report by the Harrisburg (Pa.) Patriot-News, emails between former university President Graham Spanier and the school's former general counsel, Wendell V. Courtney, "describe steps the two men took to protect players."
--------

Patriot-News article:

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/06/post_371.html

........Erickson said he expects the report to be completed in mid- to late July, and reiterated that it will be issued publicly at the same time it goes to university trustees.

Reader · Jul 4, 2012

Joe Paterno's appointment books shed no light on whether Tim Curley is telling the truth

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf-...t-books-tim-curley-jerry-sandusky-email-.html

.............While it often lacked great detail, for a Penn State community desperate for any facts or explanations, the appointment book could offer a morsel of truth.

Unfortunately it doesn't; at least not yet.

The library's collection of Paterno appointment books run from 1985 to 2000, the last entry being Dec. 30, 2000. There is nothing from 2001 until Paterno's firing in November 2011.

Seven weeks after the last item in the appointment book, Curley's email stated that he and the iconic coach talked about how to handle Sandusky. There is no publicly available documentation that the meeting did or didn't occur, let alone the subjects discussed.

The paperwork of Paterno's whereabouts ending so close to these critical days appears to be coincidental..........

At this moment though, little is available for a public seeking answers.

The hole in the Paterno Papers, as the university calls them, only deepens the power Tim Curley holds over Paterno's legacy.
-------

The second possibility is the most unlikely. It would suggest Curley, who was Paterno's boss in name only, was willing to go against the wishes of the powerful coach he played for and, as a State College native, grew up cheering for the Nittany Lions. It also would mean Paterno, when later finding out Curley had defied his wishes and essentially harbored a child molester, didn't overrule him and himself go to the police, child services or Spanier.

That's just not plausible.

More at link....

BigCat · Jul 4, 2012

J. J. in Phila said:
And, as always:

Central Pennsylvania Gothic.

It keeps on getting worse. Even if the Three Stooges were acting out of completely altruistic purposes, really thought they were being "humane," it blew up in their faces. Good Lord, even saying that they wanted Sandusky to get help doesn't mean anything if he doesn't get any help.

Maybe, this could be at least partly justifiable if someone would have forced him to get help, and made sure he wasn't around young boys.

(Yes, I'm in full rant today!)

As of yet, however, I've seen zero evidence that Sandusky received professional help for either the 98 or 2001 incident. (I guess I can refer to them as "crimes" now that they have been adjudicated).

We know for a fact that Curley testified no attempt was made to find the boy.

Those two actions -- finding the boy and getting Sandusky help -- were the bare minimum they could have done to make me believe they were genuinely concerned about the humans involved. It's unclear if they attempted to do either.

From what we've seen and heard so far, it appears their defense is going to be that, based on what MM told them, they weighed their options and made a difficult, "humane" decision. That defense reminds me of Hemingway's warning to "never confuse movement with action." In the end, they did nothing except ban JS from bringing children on campus.

Now you got me ranting.

Pensfan · Jul 4, 2012

J. J. in Phila said:
BBM

Until late 2010, the AG's Office, Corbett, had no idea about 1998, Victim 6, or Gricar. Nobody, including me, was looking at any cases RFG did not prosecute. The BPD had no idea about 1998. This thing popped up when they started looking at activities on campus.

Maybe it came out in the SPM review panel of Gricar; I don't know. That is a possibility, however.

Okay, on the board; we're in agreement that it wouldn't be a board coverup, I take it?

The only involvement with the DA's Office was 1998, and there is no record of it. They couldn't forward any files because there were not any files; that was not unusual. There is no way that anyone could have known prior to discovering the file, unless someone remembered it and told them.

Even if someone did, there was no focus on it in 2005-10. Everyone knew (well, they thought they knew) what a hard hitting DA Gricar was. If he didn't file charges, there would be a good reason; everybody thought this. That was the general impression of Ray Gricar; that was my impression of Ray Gricar. Heck, that was Schreffler's impression of Ray Gricar.

Corbett didn't know about 1998 until 2010; Madeira didn't know about it until 2011. The Bellefonte Police Department didn't know about it until at least 2010. I didn't know about it until 2011.

I still think RFG's decision in 1998 was just bad judgment, exceptionally, horrifically, terrible judgment. Had Sandusky not been indicted, we wouldn't have known about it at all.

When detectives investigating Gricar's disappearance questioned Gricar's assistants (Yes, I did read that one was never questioned, but there were others in his office) do you believe Gricar's assistants really didn't tell the detectives about Gricar's knowledge of the Sandusky allegation?

From what I have read, Gricar was respected and liked. I believe his assistants would have shared with the detectives everyone who had an interest in Gricar disappearing. Having a DA go "poof" in your state is very serious and threatening to all prosecutors. Corbett would have wanted to know the details the detectives gathered. (no link, just common sense)

{I hope your part of the state has less thunderstorms than Pittsburgh on this holiday. I am considering building an ark.}

Pensfan · Jul 4, 2012

BigCat said:
As of yet, however, I've seen zero evidence that Sandusky received professional help for either the 98 or 2001 incident. (I guess I can refer to them as "crimes" now that they have been adjudicated).

We know for a fact that Curley testified no attempt was made to find the boy.

Those two actions -- finding the boy and getting Sandusky help -- were the bare minimum they could have done to make me believe they were genuinely concerned about the humans involved. It's unclear if they attempted to do either.

From what we've seen and heard so far, it appears their defense is going to be that, based on what MM told them, they weighed their options and made a difficult, "humane" decision. That defense reminds me of Hemingway's warning to "never confuse movement with action." In the end, they did nothing except ban JS from bringing children on campus.

Now you got me ranting.

Unless Sandusky shared the true name of the 2001 victim with admins, how could anyone check on this child? I seriously doubt Sandusky would have shared this child's real name.

J. J. in Phila · Jul 4, 2012

BigCat said:
As of yet, however, I've seen zero evidence that Sandusky received professional help for either the 98 or 2001 incident. (I guess I can refer to them as "crimes" now that they have been adjudicated).

We know for a fact that Curley testified no attempt was made to find the boy.

Those two actions -- finding the boy and getting Sandusky help -- were the bare minimum they could have done to make me believe they were genuinely concerned about the humans involved. It's unclear if they attempted to do either.

I know; I'm agreeing, but I'm in full rant today (which might have something to with being in Philadelphia on July 4th!).

Assume that this was something less worse. Assume that Sandusky had kleptomania, and stole small thinks from area stores. I could tolerate a suspended sentence, with Sandusky going into therapy for treatment. This was like, "Let him steal things, but we'll ask him to stop it at the Penn State Book Store."

From what we've seen and heard so far, it appears their defense is going to be that, based on what MM told them, they weighed their options and made a difficult, "humane" decision. That defense reminds me of Hemingway's warning to "never confuse movement with action." In the end, they did nothing except ban JS from bringing children on campus.

Now you got me ranting.

If they had tried, it might be a point in their favor, but they didn't try.

It is absolutely appalling. Curley and Schultz both have master's degrees. Spanier has a doctorate. Spanier actually said that this could happen, and still did it. They are not stupid people.

BigCat · Jul 4, 2012

Pensfan said:
Unless Sandusky shared the true name of the 2001 victim with admins, how could anyone check on this child? I seriously doubt Sandusky would have shared this child's real name.

You'll definitely never know if you don't ask.

Q: Did you ask Jerry Sandusky who the boy was that was with him in the shower?

A: I did not.

Q: Did you attempt to find out who that young man was?

A: I did not.

J. J. in Phila · Jul 4, 2012

Pensfan said:
When detectives investigating Gricar's disappearance questioned Gricar's assistants (Yes, I did read that one was never questioned, but there were others in his office) do you believe Gricar's assistants really didn't tell the detectives about Gricar's knowledge of the Sandusky allegation?

Yes, in 2005; I believe that Sandusky never came up in regard to RFG. It wasn't an issue. The Sandusky case was a 3 1/2 weeks just under years before. There was no further investigation and no charges were brought. There was no indication, in 2005, that Sandusky had done anything to interest LE since that point. RFG wasn't working on it.

RFG dealt with 100's (if not 1000's) of cases as DA, and as an ADA prosecuted additional cases in both Centre and Cuyahoga Counties. Sandusky wasn't exactly on the radar in 2005. It wasn't current or the most violent case he handled.

There were interviews of of some of the ADA's from the period in the summer of 2010. That was after the grand jury had started looking at Sandusky. One said that the detectives said he told them things they never knew about RFG.

From what I have read, Gricar was respected and liked. I believe his assistants would have shared with the detectives everyone who had an interest in Gricar disappearing. Having a DA go "poof" in your state is very serious and threatening to all prosecutors. Corbett would have wanted to know the details the detectives gathered. (no link, just common sense)

Corbett had a hands off policy with the case. The local DA's declined to turn it over to him. I wasn't even calling for it to be turned over until 11/2011, because of the jurisdictional problem.

{I hope your part of the state has less thunderstorms than Pittsburgh on this holiday. I am considering building an ark.}

Sunny here, and I broke into Cool, Considerate Men.

IzzyBlanche · Jul 4, 2012

Pensfan said:
Unless Sandusky shared the true name of the 2001 victim with admins, how could anyone check on this child? I seriously doubt Sandusky would have shared this child's real name.

A phone call to Second Mile would have been a good place to start.

Pensfan · Jul 4, 2012

IzzyBlanche said:
A phone call to Second Mile would have been a good place to start.

ITA. Raykovitz or his wife would have likely stated "Gee. We just don't know. Jerry has LOTS of little boys that he is interested in" because Jerry did and they had to witness this for decades. As a PH.D psychiatrist and a school guidance counselor they had to suspect something too, IMO.

IzzyBlanche · Jul 4, 2012

Pensfan said:
ITA. Raykovitz or his wife would have likely stated "Gee. We just don't know. Jerry has LOTS of little boys that he is interested in" because Jerry did and they had to witness this for decades. As a PH.D psychiatrist and a school guidance counselor they had to suspect something too, IMO.

Maybe they would have dodged the question, but someone had to have known who Jerry was hanging out with on that particular day. The child didn't just materialize out of nowhere.

J. J. in Phila · Jul 4, 2012

IzzyBlanche said:
Maybe they would have dodged the question, but someone had to have known who Jerry was hanging out with on that particular day. The child didn't just materialize out of nowhere.

It should not have been too hard to figure out, at the time.

Second Mile had records of who was in the program. Sandusky claimed he'd identified the child.

Penn State Sandusky Trial #12 (GUILTY-post verdict discussion)

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