All About Chloroform#2

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For the record the components of early decomposition have higher conc. of products from anaerobic reactions because more of the decomposition takes place inside the body. Decomposition tends to more aerobic when it all leaks out.

The products found here are more consistent with those early stages, that's why we are all refering to the body being in trunk for first 2.5 to 3 days.

I DO NOT think chloroform is a factor in the crime, or more correctly there is not enough evidence of that YET. There was a higher than expected amount of chloroform in the trunk. But that can be explained. My suggestion is cleaning products. Bleach mixed with other solvents. You are warned not to do that because of reactions causing chlorine and chlorine products.
 
Exactly, it doesn't say the amount was unusual for an anaerobic event and it doesn't say that it was usual. It doesn't say that chloroform was used as a murder weapon, but it does say that NO additional chemicals, e.g. acetone or alcohol, which are the main components of manufactured chloroform, were detected.

It says that "residues of chloroform" were found within some specimens, but not all specimens. The report says that the standards have not yet been run so we don't know if the amount was so unusually high as to indicate that chloroform was introduced to the body before the hde took place. Until standards are made available we don't know if the amount was higher than usual in a hde or not.

There are no standards whatsoever for child hdes. None. And that is exactly what the defense experts are going to point out.

p.s. Hercule, the 2.5 days is based on the LIBS results, not the MSC results.
 
Chloroform is detected in ALL human decomposition events. A higher level of chloroform is detected in those events in which the body was kept in an anaerobic condition.

The report says that compounds that were tentatively identified by mass spectral library match have NOT yet been run for standards.

Lanie, correct, a larger amount than is typically seen in human decomposition, but it does not say that the amount is unusual for a hde in anaerobic conditions.


From the forensic report (emphasis mine):

Carbon, "disulfide *
ç. , appears very early in human decomposition (<100ADDsa) *
Q ' appears in both aerobic and anaerobic decomposition

Carbon tetrachloride
appears very early in human decomposition (<100 ADDs)
appears in both aerobic and anaerobic decomposition
potentially a human specific marker (not seen in select animal remains)

Chloroform
appears very early in human decomposition (<1Q0 ADDs)
primarily detected in deprived oxygen (anaerobic) decompositions

Dimethyl trisulfide
appears very early in human decomposition (<100 ADDs)
appears in both aerobic and anaerobic decomposition

Dimethyl disulfide
appears very early in human decomposition (<100 ADDs)
appears in both aerobic and anaerobic decomposition

Chloroform (at least in this report) is set apart from the other VOCs as being detected primarily in anaerobic decompositions.

ETA: So it stands to reason that if chloroform is primarily detected in deprived oxygen (anaerobic) decompositions and the amount detected is "an unusually large concentration of chloroform - far greater than what is typically seen in human decomposition--then the amount of chloroform detected in this case is far greater than typically seen in any type of human decompostion. Maybe it's just the way the report is worded?
 
Right, Indigo, it is detected in early human decomp AND primarily detected in anaerobic decomps. Thanks for posting that.
 
Right, Indigo, it is detected in early human decomp AND primarily detected in anaerobic decomps. Thanks for posting that.


Therefore if the amount of chloroform is higher than normally detected in human decompostion, they have to be referring to anaerobic decomposition, right? Otherwise....I dunno...:crazy:
 
I don't know, Indigo. Quite frankly, I don't think this report tells us much of anything, at least in any detail to make it meaningful. These reports when they're written are going to be a big bone of contention among the experts because there is no data base of child decomp. events.
 
I don't know, Indigo. Quite frankly, I don't think this report tells us much of anything, at least in any detail to make it meaningful. These reports when they're written are going to be a big bone of contention among the experts because there is no data base of child decomp. events.

ITA, these reports will be front and center--a battle of the experts. Just thinking about the back and forth this will create makes me dizzy.
 
Exactly, it doesn't say the amount was unusual for an anaerobic event and it doesn't say that it was usual. It doesn't say that chloroform was used as a murder weapon, but it does say that NO additional chemicals, e.g. acetone or alcohol, which are the main components of manufactured chloroform, were detected.

It says that "residues of chloroform" were found within some specimens, but not all specimens. The report says that the standards have not yet been run so we don't know if the amount was so unusually high as to indicate that chloroform was introduced to the body before the hde took place. Until standards are made available we don't know if the amount was higher than usual in a hde or not.

There are no standards whatsoever for child hdes. None. And that is exactly what the defense experts are going to point out.

p.s. Hercule, the 2.5 days is based on the LIBS results, not the MSC results.

The report clearly states an unusually high level of chloroform was found. I don't know if there are standards set for child hdes or not, I'll take your word for it. Be that as it may, IMO, this would have to be the very first time this laboratory has ever done testing having anything to do with the decompositon of a child, otherwise, if this were a typical occurance, they would have run into it before, and wouldn't feel it necessary to make a note of these elevated levels of chloroform.
I think I'll go with what the report says.
Lanie
 
I still believe that any elevation in the numbers on chlorophorm amounts could have been due to pool chlorine interacting during early decomp. Many of the other elements would have evaporated completely but the chlorine could cause the numbers for naturally occuring chlorophorm to be elevated. I don't think KC had the know how or the ambition to manufacture chlorophorm for use--even with the help of the world wide web...
 
I still believe that any elevation in the numbers on chlorophorm amounts could have been due to pool chlorine interacting during early decomp. Many of the other elements would have evaporated completely but the chlorine could cause the numbers for naturally occuring chlorophorm to be elevated. I don't think KC had the know how or the ambition to manufacture chlorophorm for use--even with the help of the world wide web...
I am sort of on your side. Chemical reactions COULD have resulted in raised chloroform levels and are certainly one explanation that the defence could put forward. However, in regards to pool chemicals being the source of a significant portion of the chloroform: Pool water is dilute. I have no exact data, but obviously the pool chemicals are dilute so as not to be unpleasnt, let alone dangerous to humans. Even if Caylee's body supplied entire lungs-full of pool water to the trunk, the volume would be small and the amount of chlorine close to none. I prefer to consider cleaning chemicals with high concentrations of chlorine.
 
The tests are performed on specimens from all ages of cadavers, the problem is that they have no data base of controlled human child decomposition events with which to compare it. Yes, they have a data base of controlled human adult decomposition events, but there is none for children. When specimens are tested, those tests are run against those control samples collected from known, observed and measured human decomposition events. They can test specimens all day long, but if there is nothing to compare it with, it is essentially, scientifically meaningless. An example would be the lack of measured floridines found in the specimens from the car trunk, they have measured the rate at which floridines leach from the body in controlled adult human decomposition but the rate, if any, of children is unknown. The reason for that is that child bodies are not used at the Body Farm for controls, so while they can take an educated guess and assume that children have not yet ingested enough floridines as adults have which can then be measured. However, they still do not know for adults or children how much floride is absorbed, at what rate and under what circumstances the floride is ingested and absorbed in living people, so while they can measure the rate at which floride leaches from adult cadavers they cannot state with scientific certitude that this rate is a marker of human decomposition.

The data base is information collected from controlled human decomposition events over 100 adds which is known and observed. That is how they built their data base at the body farm.

Their library is something all together different from the data base. The library is a program that compares the chemical signature of known substances such as gasoline by brand, household cleaning products by brand and those chemicals used to make up those products along with the signature of other gases such as chloroform, alcohol, methane, etc.

The report is saying that an unusually higher level than usual, in the opinion of the observer, of chloroform has been recognized. This is his educated and informed opinion - it is known that chloroform is manufactured after death, that it is manufactured quite early in the process and that higher levels are observed in anaerobic conditions. The report also makes very clear that those components used in the manufacture of chloroform by means other than human decomposition have NOT been observed, namely acetone and alcohol. He doesn't scientically know yet why this level is as high as it is, because he has not run it against the data base. The report also does NOT mention chlorine as unusually high as it would be if the chloroform had been manufactured by means other than human decomposition.

This is a PRELIMINARY report. Now we can make all kinds of suppositions and assumptions from this preliminary report, but until the report is written and I doubt that it is for many reasons, that is all we have - suppositions and assumptions. What this report is telling us is that a human decomposition took place in the trunk of the car, that an unusually high amont of chloroform was detected, but higher levels of chloroform are detected in anaerobic conditions, which can explain why the amount if higher than usual. There is not one place in that report where that level of chloroform can be explained by means of introduction PRIOR to death. There is no such thing as a "typical occurance" in science. There is known and unknown data. Even if it was "typical" it would be necessary to "make a note of it" because assumption isn't a scientific method of observation. Based on this report alone, no scientist is going to stand up in court and say with scientific certitude that this higher level of chloroform is the result of manufactured chloroform being introduced to the victim before death and that there are no other reasonable, scientific explanations for this level of chloroform (and we're talking about RESIDUES found in the trunk on some samples and not others and traces were found on the control samples) detected in that trunk - there is NO data base of control samples of human child decomposition events. An accumulation of evidence might point to the decomposition of a child in that trunk, but this report ALONE does not confirm that with scientific certitude.

So I'm going to go with what the report says, too.
 
I am sort of on your side. Chemical reactions COULD have resulted in raised chloroform levels and are certainly one explanation that the defence could put forward. However, in regards to pool chemicals being the source of a significant portion of the chloroform: Pool water is dilute. I have no exact data, but obviously the pool chemicals are dilute so as not to be unpleasnt, let alone danggerous to humans. Even if Caylee's body supplied entire lungs-full of pool water to the trunk, the volume would be small and the amount of chlorine close to none. I prefer to consider cleaning chemicals with high concentrations of chlorine.

Bold is mine.
So, Hercule, Given there were high concentrations of chlorine, to presumably clean the trunk, how much would this compromise the odor analysis given, as opposed to no cleaning agents interferring with the decompositional odor in the trunk? In other words, would the decomp odor analysis be higher, maybe for longer than 2.6 days? Just a thought
 
I am sort of on your side. Chemical reactions COULD have resulted in raised chloroform levels and are certainly one explanation that the defence could put forward. However, in regards to pool chemicals being the source of a significant portion of the chloroform: Pool water is dilute. I have no exact data, but obviously the pool chemicals are dilute so as not to be unpleasnt, let alone dangerous to humans. Even if Caylee's body supplied entire lungs-full of pool water to the trunk, the volume would be small and the amount of chlorine close to none. I prefer to consider cleaning chemicals with high concentrations of chlorine.

I agree, Hercule Poirot. The chloroform had to come from a concentrated source to last as long as it did and to penetrate the carpet and airspace(even after carpet was removed) so completely. It was the primary compound found in the analysis. Personally, I believe the report rules out human decomposition as the source.
 
Indigo, the chloroform wasn't the "primary compound found in the analysis. The "primary compound" was gasoline as it was in the control sample and in the garage of OCSD.
 
[/I][/B]
Bold is mine.
So, Hercule, Given there were high concentrations of chlorine, to presumably clean the trunk, how much would this compromise the odor analysis given, as opposed to no cleaning agents interferring with the decompositional odor in the trunk? In other words, would the decomp odor analysis be higher, maybe for longer than 2.6 days? Just a thought
We are guessing at amounts. I am just saying that there is a sinificant amount of chlorine in some cleaning products. That is why the "How to make Chloroform" recipes use bleach to supply chlorine. I think that the concentrated chemicals that you put in pools would also be a source, but by the time it is diluted to Parts Per Million in the pool water, you would need gallons and gallons to supply measureable amounts to the trunk. Choloform is just one of the decomposition measured. It appears SULFUR compounds are significant and not likely to be from cleaning products. I believe a lot of the chemicals that we report as "NASTY SMELL" are sulfur compounds.
 
The decomp odour didn't determine the length of time the body was in the car, the LIBS test did based on the ratio of calcium to magnesium.
 
The decomp odour didn't determine the length of time the body was in the car, the LIBS test did based on the ratio of calcium to magnesium.


Thanks Bev, I just read your other post. Nice to have well-informed posters here.
 
The tests are performed on specimens from all ages of cadavers, the problem is that they have no data base of controlled human child decomposition events with which to compare it. Yes, they have a data base of controlled human adult decomposition events, but there is none for children. When specimens are tested, those tests are run against those control samples collected from known, observed and measured human decomposition events. They can test specimens all day long, but if there is nothing to compare it with, it is essentially, scientifically meaningless. An example would be the lack of measured floridines found in the specimens from the car trunk, they have measured the rate at which floridines leach from the body in controlled adult human decomposition but the rate, if any, of children is unknown. The reason for that is that child bodies are not used at the Body Farm for controls, so while they can take an educated guess and assume that children have not yet ingested enough floridines as adults have which can then be measured. However, they still do not know for adults or children how much floride is absorbed, at what rate and under what circumstances the floride is ingested and absorbed in living people, so while they can measure the rate at which floride leaches from adult cadavers they cannot state with scientific certitude that this rate is a marker of human decomposition.

The data base is information collected from controlled human decomposition events over 100 adds which is known and observed. That is how they built their data base at the body farm.

Their library is something all together different from the data base. The library is a program that compares the chemical signature of known substances such as gasoline by brand, household cleaning products by brand and those chemicals used to make up those products along with the signature of other gases such as chloroform, alcohol, methane, etc.

The report is saying that an unusually higher level than usual, in the opinion of the observer, of chloroform has been recognized. This is his educated and informed opinion - it is known that chloroform is manufactured after death, that it is manufactured quite early in the process and that higher levels are observed in anaerobic conditions. The report also makes very clear that those components used in the manufacture of chloroform by means other than human decomposition have NOT been observed, namely acetone and alcohol. He doesn't scientically know yet why this level is as high as it is, because he has not run it against the data base. The report also does NOT mention chlorine as unusually high as it would be if the chloroform had been manufactured by means other than human decomposition.

This is a PRELIMINARY report. Now we can make all kinds of suppositions and assumptions from this preliminary report, but until the report is written and I doubt that it is for many reasons, that is all we have - suppositions and assumptions. What this report is telling us is that a human decomposition took place in the trunk of the car, that an unusually high amont of chloroform was detected, but higher levels of chloroform are detected in anaerobic conditions, which can explain why the amount if higher than usual. There is not one place in that report where that level of chloroform can be explained by means of introduction PRIOR to death. There is no such thing as a "typical occurance" in science. There is known and unknown data. Even if it was "typical" it would be necessary to "make a note of it" because assumption isn't a scientific method of observation. Based on this report alone, no scientist is going to stand up in court and say with scientific certitude that this higher level of chloroform is the result of manufactured chloroform being introduced to the victim before death and that there are no other reasonable, scientific explanations for this level of chloroform (and we're talking about RESIDUES found in the trunk on some samples and not others and traces were found on the control samples) detected in that trunk - there is NO data base of control samples of human child decomposition events. An accumulation of evidence might point to the decomposition of a child in that trunk, but this report ALONE does not confirm that with scientific certitude.

So I'm going to go with what the report says, too.

One possible explanation why there is a raised level of chloroform might be because the body could have been (and probably was) put in the trunk very soon after death. I would assume that the cadavers the body farm works with are not normally delivered to them until at least several hours after death and so their controlled observations under aerobic/anaerobic conditions may not include the whole period of very early decomposition.
 
Respectfully snipped.

What this report is telling us is that a human decomposition took place in the trunk of the car, that an unusually high amont of chloroform was detected, but higher levels of chloroform are detected in anaerobic conditions, which can explain why the amount if higher than usual. There is not one place in that report where that level of chloroform can be explained by means of introduction PRIOR to death. There is no such thing as a "typical occurance" in science. There is known and unknown data. Even if it was "typical" it would be necessary to "make a note of it" because assumption isn't a scientific method of observation. Based on this report alone, no scientist is going to stand up in court and say with scientific certitude that this higher level of chloroform is the result of manufactured chloroform being introduced to the victim before death and that there are no other reasonable, scientific explanations for this level of chloroform (and we're talking about RESIDUES found in the trunk on some samples and not others and traces were found on the control samples) detected in that trunk - there is NO data base of control samples of human child decomposition events. An accumulation of evidence might point to the decomposition of a child in that trunk, but this report ALONE does not confirm that with scientific certitude.

So I'm going to go with what the report says, too.

Bolded by me. That is not what the report says. Paraphrasing here, as I have already quoted this twice, it says higher levels of chloroform than are typical (and typical is their word, not mine) in a human decompositional event were found. That is what it says. And I disagree with "there is no such thing as a typical occurance in science." Just staying on topic with dead bodies, a typical scientific occurance with a dead body would be that body is no longer breathing. A typical occurance would be if a dead body were exposed to a certain degree of temperature over a certain amount of time, it would decompose at a certain level. If it didn't, then there would be an investigation into what is different between this dead body and the typical dead body.
There is not anything in the report explaining the chloroform prior to death because they don't have that information. They know where it could come from, human decomp, but apparently they feel there is a higher concentration than can be explained by decomp, and a chance mixing of say, acetone and chlorine, but they ruled that out, also. It stands to reason what is left would be chloroform, already made, introduced into the trunk at some time prior to the samples being taken. They also ruled out contamination by the garage the car was kept in, and tested other control trunk specimens, and eliminated this being a natural occurance in this specific car model. So, I do agree with you there, they are not saying when it was introduced, or where it came from, they are just saying where it did not come from.
FWIW, I have no idea if chloroform was used in Caylee's death or not. I do, however, find the evidence very compelling Casey was, at some point, in possession of chloroform, and that chloroform somehow got into the trunk of her car.
Lanie
 
The decomp odour didn't determine the length of time the body was in the car, the LIBS test did based on the ratio of calcium to magnesium.
Why do you think they pick calcium and magnesium. Why do they measure a ratio between them. How do you relate that to decomposition at all. How do you relate that to lenth of time?
 
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