Dogs

Hookednan, hope we're helping u and others to better understand what dogs do and are all about.
The kind of residual scent you are talking about would be very hard to track/trail on a fresh trail, no way on an aged one.
Don't apologize for not knowing, it's fantastic that you're on here and trying to figure it out the right way! Feel free to ask any question, never worry about sounding stupid, there's no such thing as a dumb question.
 
Thank you so much Sarx and JTSYS for all the helpful and patient explanations. I have been wondering (and please forgive me if I just dont get it:)), what if the killer kept an item of hers as a trophy of some kind. What if he travelled that area frequently following the same route? What if he was the one at the library after murdering her and still had her scent on him? Would it be plausible/possible for the dogs to pick up scent then?
Sorry, I know nothing of this topic, but your discussions intrigued me!

If whoever killed Amber had something of hers that was scent specific for a HR dog, and left it or was at a place such as the library- and who someone knew to take dogs to at some point...an HRD dog would hit on that even 6 months after the fact.
 
If whoever killed Amber had something of hers that was scent specific for a HR dog, and left it or was at a place such as the library- and who someone knew to take dogs to at some point...an HRD dog would hit on that even 6 months after the fact.

But that's taking it back to working remains and then we get back to the question of how would they get to the library in the first place?

I think what hookednan was asking is if a dog could follow a car that had an item of the person's in it but not the person. (ie- the dogs trailed 6 months later a trail left by say her backpack that was in the car). Am I getting the question hookednan?
 
But that's taking it back to working remains and then we get back to the question of how would they get to the library in the first place?

I think what hookednan was asking is if a dog could follow a car that had an item of the person's in it but not the person. (ie- the dogs trailed 6 months later a trail left by say her backpack that was in the car). Am I getting the question hookednan?

If that was the question hookednan (sorry if I misunderstood) and maybe I am misunderstanding again- but in that scenario again it would depend on what was in the backpack and if the dogs knew where to 'look.' IMO dogs could not follow a trail as such unless they were HRD dogs and there was a constant scent trail, which would mean scent deposits at locations along the trail.
 
In the scenario with tracking dogs following a scent from an article that is in a vehicle it is important to remember that a backpack would not be giving off rafts of skin cells as a human body would. IMO
 
Absolutely agree dsntslp, there are a finite number of cells on an object (backpack, shirt, etc) and obviously it doesn't regenerate them, so...
 
In the scenario with tracking dogs following a scent from an article that is in a vehicle it is important to remember that a backpack would not be giving off rafts of skin cells as a human body would. IMO

Again, clarification on "tracking dogs" ?
Something in a vehicle would absolutely give off scent if the scent had been deposited there by any number of means. Not saying that is the case, but I am a little confused by the question. A backpack with something in/on it that a trailing or HRD dog has been trained to hit on should hit on a location the backpack has been. Obviously the vehicle would have to be availble to do so.
 
Absolutely agree dsntslp, there are a finite number of cells on an object (backpack, shirt, etc) and obviously it doesn't regenerate them, so...

I must be misunderstanding this issue entirely, because I am completely confused. The amount of cells left on an object help increase odds scent-wise.... but again.... Don't you think it matters what cells and scent we are referring to and what type of dog is being used under what circumstances?
 
I took it to mean that they were talking trailing the backpack in the car down the freeway (that the person that had handled the backpack had never been in the car themselves.) It is entirely possible I completely misread this. I'm confusing myself now!
 
This is what I don't understand from all the postings here on the subject. The dogs' handlers claimed they followed the scent to Pala--approximately 3 miles up Pala-Temecuala Road (about a 1/2 mile from the site of her remains) & found no "exit" at that point--and reported their findings to LE. Now this was in the news here in San Diego last summer--almost a year before her remains were found & before Nancy Grace went running with it. The area between Amber's home in Escondido and where she was found in Pala consists of thousands of acres of barren desert (with relatively new communities interspersed in-between.) It just seems like way too much of a coincidence to me to have claimed to have tracked her scent so close to where she was found--months before she was found,if, in fact, everyone is saying there's no way. It appears they did it. So how can that be explained?
 
Statistical probability can be done on this based on the numbers of turn offs that could have been made ...I think based on the information about the direct trail that was found untill "no exit trail" could be found gives you a million to one possibility. So reverse engineer this... it happened .. now why... I looked at some FBI papers on the vk-9 web site and they show trails over a year old being done ....is this just a matter of education?
And they reached a spot 1/2 mile from the location she was found not 3.5.(read the above note it spells that out as well). thanks

The media states the report was provided to esconditio last fall.
 
The PI for the case said that they were also using the dogs to confirm leads. They may have had information on Pala. We don't know as they won't talk about it and probably never will hear about it.

Socal, can you point me to the FBI articles for me, I would like to read them. It's also interesting that they talked about it on the news last year. I could find nothing in print from the media or anywhere from last August talking about it. Quite the opposite in fact, they said they had found nothing significant but were asked by LE to keep what they did find quiet. If it was on the news last year it should also have been in print, let me know if you can track down something from August.

Recuemedic, can you point me to a map that shows the library only being .5 miles from the body site? I thought that the library was in town and not on that road.
 
Has anyone come across what the dogs used as a scent article?
Any other information on the Pala reservation besides the dogs that links Amber to there?

JTSYS and any other handler/trainers on here. What if the dogs were following a newer fresher trail of a family member? (We know family scent smells similar and there is also the possibility of contamination within the family).
 
I have not come across the scent article used. This is where I was going with my earlier post about traveling a similar route and familiarity. I'm going to talk to Oriah about this and see what she thinks. Re: the trailing issue and all we've discussed- IMO, this is critical info.
 
Here is a map of Pala. The yellow marker is the library (past Pala-Temecula Rd). The red marker is where her remains were found. For those of us who don't live near the map helps me at leas get a feel for the area and terrain.
 

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Statistical probability can be done on this based on the numbers of turn offs that could have been made ...I think based on the information about the direct trail that was found untill "no exit trail" could be found gives you a million to one possibility. So reverse engineer this... it happened .. now why... I looked at some FBI papers on the vk-9 web site and they show trails over a year old being done ....is this just a matter of education?
And they reached a spot 1/2 mile from the location she was found not 3.5.(read the above note it spells that out as well). thanks

The media states the report was provided to esconditio last fall.

Statistical probability regarding the number of turn offs is not really applicable here. It all depends on the scent article, and what was used to refresh the scent, and we don't have that info. For example, there may have been more than one scent article used.
 
I have not come across the scent article used. This is where I was going with my earlier post about traveling a similar route and familiarity. I'm going to talk to Oriah about this and see what she thinks. Re: the trailing issue and all we've discussed- IMO, this is critical info.

So, are you thinking that she may have frequented Pala? (I'm wondering if someone in the family did.)
 
So, are you thinking that she may have frequented Pala? (I'm wondering if someone in the family did.)

I'm thinking that would explain a lot of things. But there are a huge # of variables here. Family being one of them. I would really like to know the scent article used.

ETA: or perhaps the person who had her, did.
 
I don't know why a 14 yr old girl would frequent the area, though she did ride horses, maybe that's where? It's 20 miles seemingly out in the middle of nowhere from her place. I haven't seen any info on where the parents and grandmother worked, could be out that way?
 
I don't know why a 14 yr old girl would frequent the area, though she did ride horses, maybe that's where? It's 20 miles seemingly out in the middle of nowhere from her place. I haven't seen any info on where the parents and grandmother worked, could be out that way?

I don't either, and quite honestly it seems like a typical dump site to me. But the confusion of the dogs hitting so close (if that's what actually happened) makes me wonder.
 

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