Are the Ramseys involved or not?

vlpate · Aug 20, 2011

vlpate said:
Yes, this makes perfect sense and it goes back to JBR having an accident and it was the straw that broke Patsy's crazy stick. A friend of mine was given adderol (sp), after she finished chemotherapy and given an all clear - she was so exhausted all the time she had no quality of life from the bouts with chemo. The adderal gave her a lot of energy, but when they wore off she was dead tired again.

Anyway, I totally think your theory holds a lot of water, but it is never discussed. I remember, years ago, reading about John acting so nervous and disappearing that day. I mean, why would he look for JonBenet twice if he already Maybe he started waking up that day it all started hitting him....

This theory has always been in the back of my mind...in fact, I was just thinking about it a few nights ago and would love to have you expound, based on what we know of the evidence!

I totally apologize for this nonsensical post - I was hurrying out the door.

Steve Thomas pretty much has the same theory. He saw that it was never going to go anywhere and he quit. He was right, nowhere.

The kink for me is Burke - if the PDI theory with JR being oblivious is true - why the chain of events involving BR? I'm going to have to go back and re-read the chain of events that morning. This theory deserves more attention, IMO.

jeeps · Aug 20, 2011

Does anyone know what kind of knots were used in JB's ligatures and garotte? I've always thought that if they were knots known to be prevalent in the boating community, it would be more circumstantial evidence pointing toward JR. JR liked boats, right?

vlpate · Aug 20, 2011

jeeps said:
Does anyone know what kind of knots were used in JB's ligatures and garotte? I've always thought that if they were knots known to be prevalent in the boating community, it would be more circumstantial evidence pointing toward JR. JR liked boats, right?

It was a simple Prusik knot.
http://www.animatedknots.com/prusik/

vlpate · Aug 20, 2011

jeeps said:
Does anyone know what kind of knots were used in JB's ligatures and garotte? I've always thought that if they were knots known to be prevalent in the boating community, it would be more circumstantial evidence pointing toward JR. JR liked boats, right?

Speaking of the knot, I would love to have a picture of the other end of this rope - the part that goes around the tree. This is a staged picture, so it didn't have to be all that secured.

vlpate · Aug 20, 2011

UKGuy said:
vlpate,
Well those are the current facts. The only point of contention is the sequence of events. That is was the molestation and violence coterminous?

Not in my opinion. I think the molestation, on the night of the murder, was staged. I'm open to JR or BR was molesting her prior to 12/26/2011. It would explain John's compliance.

jeeps · Aug 20, 2011

vlpate said:
It was a simple Prusik knot.
http://www.animatedknots.com/prusik/

Thanks. From what I can see, they are used in boating: "Secures a movable loop to another line." (According to http://www.netknots.com/html/boating_knots.html)

It's just interesting, because for me, it's just another small clue that a RDI (or more specifically, that JR tied those knots). I'm not a boater to any degree, but I do fish occasionally; I'm only adept a tying a few novice fishing knots. I certainly wouldn't be able to tie the prusik knot offhand, and I'd be curious to know on average how many people in the general population do how to tie that type of knot. I would tend to think not very many would be capable, but that's just my opinion (as always).

Mikebr · Aug 20, 2011

erinleigh said:
what are your thoughts on the LISTEN CAREFULLY!!! some people think someone started dictating to her and told her to listen carefully but she wrote that part. then left to her own devices she started the mass ramblings. what was the S.B.T.C. supposed to mean? i agree that note is pure patsy but i can see where some would think maybe someone did attempt to dictate but then perhaps went on to do staging or something else. it baffles me after reading the note and comparing the writing that she was only a "possibility and couldn't be excluded" it really makes you wonder about the investigation. how in the world did patsy get away with never being charged? high powered friends or the fact that the Ramsey's lawyered up so quickly?
i wonder if patsy knew her daughter was being molested and allowed it. maybe that night her and the molester went to far. or maybe she left her daughter alone in the basement with the molester and then when she realized what happened she had to begin the staging so she wouldn't get caught for allowing the molestation? could pasty really be able to do this all on her own? another part of me thinks John was involved in the coverup as well. his reactions seem off. he is the one who found the body. at what point if any do you think John became involved? in staging or none of it but eventually came to believe it was his wife but never spoke up?
i like hearing your thoughts because honestly i never considered the fact that patsy wrote the note as a way to get john out of the house. it is a good theory and as possible as any of the other theory's that have been offered. this case is so baffling. the sad part is the truth will never be known. patsy is dead and no one else is talking. i always wonder if Burke will speak out if he outlives his father. i doubt it but he knows something. he was home that night and kids have a way of overhearing things they think their parents don't know they heard.
in your post that stated you think it was pasty in a possible abuse that went to far...did you mean physical abuse or sexual abuse? do you entertain the idea that JonBenet was sexually abused in any way?
for me i feel there was sexual abuse in the family. the bleaching of JonBenet's hair for for the overly mature pagents -i know a lot of parent go to far in pagents but there seemed to be something sad in JonBenets eyes-like she saw and experienced too much. was patsy willing to go so far to win she offered sexual favors for it? the bedwetting, the sleeping in Burke's room (was it trying to seek protection?), the multiple trips to the dr, the yeast infections...i cant put my finger on one reason, its just a feeling i get. the only thing i feel pretty certain of is that patsy was in this deep. whatever happened to poor JonBenet patsy knew. i just cant buy her version of events.

I remember that Listen Carefully was also used in a kidnapping note of a kidnapping covered in MindHunter by John Douglas, FBI profiler. I believe Patsy had that book. Interestingly i believe that kidnapper had already killed the victim when the note was received, but took the teenager. Some people said at the time Patsy may have gotten her note idea and the staging from that book. Perhaps its just a coincidence she chose that to begin her note. Technically it should be Read Carefully...but its part of the oversell I think is found throughout the note. Its like when someone is lying, they keep making argument as if the first reason was not convincing...we know the note is a lie...a staging..its a matter who you think left it. I am not sure about the sexual abuse and I think some pathologists have had different opinions and its not a undisputed fact. I think Patsy more likely physically attacked her but other than that not sure how. I don't think patsy was ever completely sober whether it was alcohol or prescription drugs..so who knows what happened...and I believe John was not part of it or that body would have been dumped and no note like that would have ever been written. If there was someone else in the house i don't see any evidence of it. I have also wondered if she fell down one of their stairs in some roughplay accident with burke or some fit of Patsy's. Then Patsy cleaned her up..cared for her for some time and when she thought she died Patsy began to panic and hatched the staging and note. Maybe there was no flashlight strike but a fall down the stairs. Just a thought.

vlpate · Aug 20, 2011

Mikebr said:
I remember that Listen Carefully was also used in a kidnapping note of a kidnapping covered in MindHunter by John Douglas, FBI profiler. I believe Patsy had that book. Interestingly i believe that kidnapper had already killed the victim when the note was received, but took the teenager. Some people said at the time Patsy may have gotten her note idea and the staging from that book. Perhaps its just a coincidence she chose that to begin her note. Technically it should be Read Carefully...but its part of the oversell I think is found throughout the note. Its like when someone is lying, they keep making argument as if the first reason was not convincing...we know the note is a lie...a staging..its a matter who you think left it. I am not sure about the sexual abuse and I think some pathologists have had different opinions and its not a undisputed fact. I think Patsy more likely physically attacked her but other than that not sure how. I don't think patsy was ever completely sober whether it was alcohol or prescription drugs..so who knows what happened...and I believe John was not part of it or that body would have been dumped and no note like that would have ever been written. If there was someone else in the house i don't see any evidence of it. I have also wondered if she fell down one of their stairs in some roughplay accident with burke or some fit of Patsy's. Then Patsy cleaned her up..cared for her for some time and when she thought she died Patsy began to panic and hatched the staging and note. Maybe there was no flashlight strike but a fall down the stairs. Just a thought.

Even more odd, they called in Douglas to access the crime and he declared the Ramseys innocent....hinky, no?

vlpate · Aug 20, 2011

jeeps said:
Thanks. From what I can see, they are used in boating: "Secures a movable loop to another line." (According to http://www.netknots.com/html/boating_knots.html)

It's just interesting, because for me, it's just another small clue that a RDI (or more specifically, that JR tied those knots). I'm not a boater to any degree, but I do fish occasionally; I'm only adept a tying a few novice fishing knots. I certainly wouldn't be able to tie the prusik knot offhand, and I'd be curious to know on average how many people in the general population do how to tie that type of knot. I would tend to think not very many would be capable, but that's just my opinion (as always).

Something that has always been weird to me...the rope on her wrists were tied the same as the garrote. Why?

erinleigh · Aug 21, 2011

UKGuy said:
erinleigh,
JonBenet was molested prior to being killed. The Coroner said so in his verbatim remarks to Det. Arndt. Sexual contact and digital penetration were his words. And BPD reckon there was chronic abuse due to the internal physical evidence.

It appears to be a sexually motivated homicide with violence inflicted upon JonBenet, after she was molested!

To use the description accident is to prejudge the evidence. It looks as if someone, whilst abusing JonBenet, lost it. Then proceeded to a coverup by staging an abduction scenario.

.

i agree. i believe JonBenet was sexually abused. its just some people feel the sexual abuse was a staged as a coverup and i like to respect other people's thoughts and theory's as well when i post and try to explore all sides of opinions so i tend not to make absolute statements if i am expressing my opinions if i don't provide links to back them up. i'm not sure what i posted that made you want alert me to the the statements that she was sexually abused. i have always stood by my belief that she was. i just like asking questions of others posters and finding out why they believe and feel what they so. it interests me to see how other people view things and come to their conclusions. every person see things differently and i like to hear them discuss their own thoughts. i find it interesting how so many people can have so many different views on cases. that why i love WS's . the diversity

UKGuy · Aug 21, 2011

vlpate said:
Not in my opinion. I think the molestation, on the night of the murder, was staged. I'm open to JR or BR was molesting her prior to 12/26/2011. It would explain John's compliance.

vlpate,
Well, well, you are in disagreement with the Coroner. The one person we know had access to JonBenet's body. Neither of us had this opportunity.

And why can the staging not be intentioned to hide a prior assault?

.

UKGuy · Aug 21, 2011

erinleigh said:
i agree. i believe JonBenet was sexually abused. its just some people feel the sexual abuse was a staged as a coverup and i like to respect other people's thoughts and theory's as well when i post and try to explore all sides of opinions so i tend not to make absolute statements if i am expressing my opinions if i don't provide links to back them up. i'm not sure what i posted that made you want alert me to the the statements that she was sexually abused. i have always stood by my belief that she was. i just like asking questions of others posters and finding out why they believe and feel what they so. it interests me to see how other people view things and come to their conclusions. every person see things differently and i like to hear them discuss their own thoughts. i find it interesting how so many people can have so many different views on cases. that why i love WS's . the diversity

erinleigh,
Yes I agree 100% with you. I also love WS' diversity. i think I responded in the manner I did because some of what you wrote appeared speculative e.g. JonBenet's molestation.

So try not to take it personally, I'm really batting for JonBenet, she herself tends to become lost in the contest of theories.

.

vlpate · Aug 22, 2011

UKGuy said:
vlpate,
Well, well, you are in disagreement with the Coroner. The one person we know had access to JonBenet's body. Neither of us had this opportunity.

And why can the staging not be intentioned to hide a prior assault?

.

I'm not at all disagreeing with the coroner. I think the molestation was staged, not that it didn't happen. I believe the strangulation was staged, and it obviously happened.

You know, I am back and forth on the staging of the sexual assault being staged to cover up. I lean toward it being something that was found while PR was staging, and why John kept his mouth shut. Still on the fence on a lot of why and how. I just know I don't have to go further than the R's to figure it out....

Mikebr · Aug 22, 2011

vlpate said:
I'm not at all disagreeing with the coroner. I think the molestation was staged, not that it didn't happen. I believe the strangulation was staged, and it obviously happened.

You know, I am back and forth on the staging of the sexual assault being staged to cover up. I lean toward it being something that was found while PR was staging, and why John kept his mouth shut. Still on the fence on a lot of why and how. I just know I don't have to go further than the R's to figure it out....

I just reread the autopsy concerning sexual assault and it says evidence of sexual assault at time of death but no evidence of prior sexual assault. I am paraphrasing. I am like you, kind of on the fence on this issue. I keep coming back to the note. Get me past Patsy writing that note and i am willing to think about other theories. Jonbenet received a hard blow to the head and some people say this is what started the series of events..what is the theory on the garrote? Is it staging? Or a way to hasten death on a dying Jonbenet? An 8 inch skull fracture requires some force i would think..so did Patsy really strike her or could she have fallen down the stairs somewhere and hit her head? I am not a pathologist so I really don't know how much force would be required to cause that injury. One more comment on the suspected sexual assault..the type of assault could have been committed by man, woman or child and could have been caused digitally or with an object..not to be too graphic. I don't think it eliminates my theory of who did it. Patsy wrote that note in my honest opinion. Only other exception would be a female with detailed and intimate knowledge of the Ramsey's.

Now one other point on the note...there is a reference to good old southern common sense..something like that...now i am from the south but have lived other places and most people outside the south would not say "southern common sense" but perhaps "common sense" It is my experience that people from outside the south consider us pretty slow and without any sense common or otherwise...but even if that is overblown they certainly would not show deference to southern sense. So the writer has a southern connection ie. Patsy again.

cynic · Aug 22, 2011

Mikebr said:
I just reread the autopsy concerning sexual assault and it says evidence of sexual assault at time of death but no evidence of prior sexual assault. I am paraphrasing. I am like you, kind of on the fence on this issue.

Have a look here, it may help you decide.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6283867&postcount=2"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Ramsey Project Rebuttal (Non Intruder Posters Only)[/ame]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6283927&postcount=4"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Ramsey Project Rebuttal (Non Intruder Posters Only)[/ame]

I keep coming back to the note. Get me past Patsy writing that note and i am willing to think about other theories.

There is no getting past that, she wrote the note.

Now one other point on the note...there is a reference to good old southern common sense..something like that...now i am from the south but have lived other places and most people outside the south would not say "southern common sense" but perhaps "common sense" It is my experience that people from outside the south consider us pretty slow and without any sense common or otherwise...but even if that is overblown they certainly would not show deference to southern sense. So the writer has a southern connection ie. Patsy again.

Over at FFJ, the poster, Cherokee, included the following in her analysis.
If youve never looked at her work, its well worth the time.
Others have reported that even though John Ramsey was not a southerner, his family and friends reportedly teased him about being one for having lived in Atlanta and marrying a West Virginian.
[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6404"]Analysis of the Linguistics and Handwriting in the Ramsey Ransom Note - Forums For Justice[/ame]
The Ramseys housekeeper, Linda Hoffman-Pugh had the following to say about that portion of the note.
The phrase "use that good Southern common sense" is what you kidded John about, since he was anything but Southern, having been born and raised in Michigan; the phrase "fat cat" is what your mother, Nedra, used to call you after you and John became rich.

Mikebr · Aug 22, 2011

Thanks for the links cynic.

I had forgotten many points about the letter. I do not know how anyone does not think Patsy wrote that letter. I will repeat my earlier point, the letter is begging John to not call the police and to leave the house to get the money. I believe Patsy needed John out of the house to be free to move the body to her car and dump it somewhere. Over and over she pleads for him to just do as the writer says. Once she has the body out of the house then no one will blame them. She prestaged the body for dumping. John just didn't act as predicted. He ran through the house and made her call 911. At some point he realized he had be had by his wife...but he decided to help her cover up. Not sure why. I also believe Patsy was very unstable and under the influence of drugs and or alcohol. Something happened after John went to bed and she may have first cleaned up her daughter and cared for her, but either she died or Patsy thought she was dead and the staging began. I think the current police and DA are covering this up since Patsy cannot be brought to justice and the truth only makes them look incompetent.

UKGuy · Aug 22, 2011

vlpate said:
I'm not at all disagreeing with the coroner. I think the molestation was staged, not that it didn't happen. I believe the strangulation was staged, and it obviously happened.

You know, I am back and forth on the staging of the sexual assault being staged to cover up. I lean toward it being something that was found while PR was staging, and why John kept his mouth shut. Still on the fence on a lot of why and how. I just know I don't have to go further than the R's to figure it out....

vlpate,

Coroner Meyers verbatim remarks on the molestation were: Sexual Contact and Digital Penetration.

I'm not sure what your theory is, but where does a staged assault fit in, what function does it serve?

.

Mikebr · Aug 22, 2011

UKGuy said:
vlpate,

Coroner Meyers verbatim remarks on the molestation were: Sexual Contact and Digital Penetration.

I'm not sure what your theory is, but where does a staged assault fit in, what function does it serve?

.

I know you were addressing another poster........

I don't know about a staged assault but the staging of the crime scene is not done by strangers. strangers have no reason to make a crime seem like its not since they have no connection to the victim. The note was clearly staging, the garrotting could be staging and in my opinion is, the sexual assault i cannot explain but if the stager and in my opinion is Patsy wanted the stage to insinuate a sexual predator then perhaps she committed the assault. Perhaps the sexual assault was earlier in the evening...i don't know....but Patsy wrote that note and until that is explained away Patsy is my suspect.

Mikebr · Aug 22, 2011

Is it possible patsy discovered a sexual assault or jonbenet told her about some sexual assault occurring earlier that day and Patsy got mad at her? is it possible as some people theorize Jonbenet did wet or soil herself and the "assault" was really an agressive and abusive washing of Jonbenet giving the same injury as a digital assault? Something set Mom off, and it resulted in a 8 inch crack in that child's skull? Slamming the girl against the tub perhaps, throwing down the stairs or a hard blow with a flashlight? I think Mom was a prescription drug addict and perhaps a drunk...so anything could have happened leading up to this.

Whaleshark · Aug 22, 2011

to wear away a hymen there has to be hard pushing against it numerous times. aggressive wiping or cleaning up, is a different type of touch. you have to poke in hard to the hymen to get it to start to tear away... it hurts to feel that, and is why sex is usually quite painful to a woman the first few times.

Are the Ramseys involved or not?

Are the Ramseys involved or not?

The Ramseys are somehow involved in the crime and/or cover-up

The Ramseys are not involved at all in the crime or cover-up

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