Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

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Macright said:
totally agree with you there about "what parent would permit TLM to babysit their child" and we now know that TM didn't but MR would not have known that about TLM...she had done some babysitting (or so she had listed on her resume and MR didn't know her that long and maybe had not seen the other side of her behaviour so if she told him that she had to babysit TS he would have no reason not to believe her. Also if TLM had told TS that her mother had sent her to pick her up and babysit her for whatever reason TS probably would not have questioned that either because I think TS knew TLM.. yes MR, without a backseat was lax about letting a child sit in there with no seatbelt etc. but the child may have not known any better as she more than likely was not up on the safety rules considering she was only 8...then they drive to Guelph and continue on with their other stops and maybe it was only then that TS started to get scared...if she were scared when they were in Guelph she could have screamed etc. while he was in the house for 10 minutes...I don't believe at that point even that she knew she was in trouble..something must have happened when they started driving to that spot either on the way or at the spot.. that is what I think but we don't know what transpired between the child and TLM that ended in her death... JMO so it's not a question of a jury believing that a parent would permit TLM to babysit their child but rather is that the story that TLM related to MR and he believed her..
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Well at one point before she died, MR knew TS was being kidnapped (IMO sooner rather than later), THAT'S about the time he should have done the right thing!! With all due respect, why do you keep making excuses for him. Maybe he didn't rape TS, but he sure as hell knew she was being kidnapped.
 
Tahorn said:
TLM listed babysitting of a 8 year old and a 5 year old on her resume, so I don't think the jury will consider that to be impossible. Besides all the people in TLM life were addicts so I doubt they would think twice about TLM babysiting.
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So are you saying that you think that just because TM was a drug addict she wouldn't think twice about having a nutcase like TLM babysit her Princess? TM didn't even want to breed her dog with CM's dog!!!
 
Hello_Kitty said:
Well at one point before she died, MR knew TS was being kidnapped (IMO sooner rather than later), THAT'S about the time he should have done the right thing!! With all due respect, why do you keep making excuses for him. Maybe he didn't rape TS, but he sure as hell knew she was being kidnapped.
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Respectfully..

IMO that is not a question that I would have expected on a site like this that is open to both sides of a debate but since you have asked I will say that I am not making excuses for MR...I do not know MR or any of the other characters in this scenario but I thought that I was permitted to state my own opinion on how I read things that have been presented in court to date.. I am not trying to convince others who are of a different opinion..and I respect their opinions..I find sometimes someone will post something that I was not aware of and I thank them for that.. If I am not permitted to post my personal opinions then maybe I should contact a Mod and have them remove all of my posts because they are not in sync with others.. JMO

respectfully..
 
Macright said:
of course you would Snoofer and that is what most people would do but you have to remember who we are dealing with here..MR more than likely had no experience with children so would not be expected to know the rules etc. he was not the one doing the babysitting..it was TLM who MAY have said that was what she was doing.. and I don't believe MR is a very bright or logical person. besides how would he be able to ask the parents for permission if he didn't know them or know where to call them...he only would have TLM's word to go on and it looks as if he believed her...I don't think he was up on the rules of babysitting and permissions that are required... JMO
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You make him sound like he's from another planet, most of his girlfriends had kids. So I doubt he didn't know the basic rules.
 
I think another "jaw dropping" day will be forth coming
 
Macright said:
Respectfully..

IMO that is not a question that I would have expected on a site like this that is open to both sides of a debate but since you have asked I will say that I am not making excuses for MR...I do not know MR or any of the other characters in this scenario but I thought that I was permitted to state my own opinion on how I read things that have been presented in court to date.. I am not trying to convince others who are of a different opinion.. If I am not permitted to post my personal opinions then maybe I should contact a Mod and have them remove all of my posts because they are not in sync with others.. JMO

respectfully..
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Respectfully, it wasn't a question, notice I didn't put a question mark at the end, it was rhetorical, I didn't really expect a reply. It was an observation if you will. :)
 
Hello_Kitty said:
Well at one point before she died, MR knew TS was being kidnapped (IMO sooner rather than later), THAT'S about the time he should have done the right thing!! With all due respect, why do you keep making excuses for him. Maybe he didn't rape TS, but he sure as hell knew she was being kidnapped.
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They were both fully invested in this plan from the moment MR picked TLM up from her house, both hopped up on drugs, and made the first drive by the school at 3:05pm. They are both equally guilty of what happened for the next 5 hours. Only one of them put an end to the torment and fear of Victoria's family and the entire town and confessed to their part in this, all of their part eventually. And to take their punishment in it's entirety with no excuses. The other one will never do this. Even though he was the one with the access to all the news and everything that was going on in the days and weeks following. If he had a shred of human decency, he would have been the one to bring Victoria home and he would have taken his punishment for his part at the time this happened. But he will not admit to anything and will make excuses for the rest of his sorry existence. Of that I have no doubt.

Just a reminder as to why he is on trial now and what was happening around him after the murder.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGR9dY1DtPE"]Tori Stafford - A Story Through Pictures - YouTube[/ame]

MOO
 
otto said:
Can you think of a murderer that wasn't arrogant and who didn't leave evidence behind? The pair were in it together from the start. They had a crazed fantasy plan of getting all drugged up and sexually assaulting a child, but they knew they couldn't get away with it if the child was left alive - so they stopped for the hammer along the way - as part of the plan to drive to the secluded spot where Tori was found. He even made sure there was enough money in his bank account (courtesy of another woman earlier in the day) to buy the murder weapon.
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Snipped for space. I think TLM told the truth she didn't get up that morning thinking she was going to kidnap a child. However, I'm pretty sure this fantasy was talked about on other days. That day the accused murderer/rapist (MR) dared her to follow through with whatever the heck they had fantazied about. (Why did MR return to TLM's, he was supposed to go to Guelph alone to get his drugs). By that time they didn't have much time to get hammer and bags, because they had to get a little girl. So I don't find it strange at all that they stopped in Guelph to buy those things. It's possible that Tori was subdued the minute she got in the car, if not, then one of them was always in the car, so they could have told her not to make a sound....
 
For three years I believed that MR was a sadistic sexual diviant that physically and psychologically controlled TLM and forced her to participate in VS abduction, rape and murder. But now I am not so sure ...

For me even though it would easier to believe TLM version of the events, it may not necessarily be the truth. The truth needs to be told, that is the only way VS will ever receive true justice.
 
snoofer said:
that is why i wonder if TS was subdued in someway by that time ie tape, drugs etc. As crown indicates TS was in the car at that time. These are the things we don't know and can only guess about. JMO
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This is where, IMO, the defense is going to have a very hard time floating the 'MR didn't know TS was being abducted' and 'thought nothing of TLM bringing TS to the car' story. I can't see the defense believably getting past the most obvious question - "where, in MR's car, was TS sitting?" Because, really, IMO, the only normal / logical answer would be to say she was in the front seat, since the defense is also suggesting the car already had no back seat.

Had they all been sitting up front, then, the drug dealer in Guelph who, I believe, has said she saw TLM in the car, would have also seen TS.

I'm really looking forward to how the defense tries to explain this. I think this, seemingly insignificant detail, will be their undoing.

As always, this is just my opinion.
 
Tahorn said:
For three years I believed that MR was a sadistic sexual diviant that physically and psychologically controlled TLM and forced her to participate in VS abduction, rape and murder. But now I am not so sure ...

For me even though it would easier to believe TLM version of the events, it may not necessarily be the truth. The truth needs to be told, that is the only way VS will ever receive true justice.
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What makes you think it hasn't been told?

MOO
 
This is a sleuths forum and to me i do believe MR is guilty but there is that reasonable doubt thing and I like when other sleuther's can seal a hole in some doubt when other doubtful posters (sometimes myself) post. If this makes sense?
 
I'm surprised that anyone would think that it was unusual for a child to be snatched off the street in broad daylight. It happens all the time. This was the first time this pair were kidnapping a child for their own sexual gratification. They had a plan and they followed through with it - to the bitter end where the child was murdered to prevent her from identifying her kidnappers. The fact that they picked up drugs or coffee on the way to the secluded murder location many miles away doesn't mean that the child knew her kidnappers or that the kidnappers were disorganized.

I'm not sure where the ideas about selling a child are coming from because there is certainly no evidence supporting theories like that. Similarly, there is no evidence that the victim knew her kidnappers prior to the abduction.
 
I don't believe TLM is telling the truth either. IMO, there are a lot of holes in her account. One glaring one, for me, was after I had read that TLM claimed that MR got her attention during his backseat assault on TS, by sounding the car horn. IMO, you'd have to be pretty brazen to blast your car horn in that situation. This does not sound believable to me.

As always, this is just my opinion.
 
Tahorn said:
For three years I believed that MR was a sadistic sexual diviant that physically and psychologically controlled TLM and forced her to participate in VS abduction, rape and murder. But now I am not so sure ...

For me even though it would easier to believe TLM version of the events, it may not necessarily be the truth. The truth needs to be told, that is the only way VS will ever receive true justice.
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JMO

yes I was of that very same opinion until this trial started..I thought LE had so much evidence against both that it was a given...but as things started to unfold things didn't seem to add up to me and I decided to keep an open mind about this MR until I could honestly commit one way or the other...so far I am not convinced of his guilt in SOME of the charges so that is why I am bending a little to the left..... no one has really heard his take on this and I will never be convinced that TLM's version is the correct one...but I have formed one opinion and that is I fully believe she was the perp and did the deed..so I have ticked that off my list after reading about her track record....and the changes that she makes to her statements... so before I become judge and jury I will wait it out to see what the other side has to say...whatever the outcome it will have no personal affect on me and I will just say justice was done...JMO
 
Thinkzerz said:
This is a sleuths forum and to me i do believe MR is guilty but there is that reasonable doubt thing and I like when other sleuther's can seal a hole in some doubt when other doubtful posters (sometimes myself) post. If this makes sense?
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Totally makes sense to me too. However, I've seen some posts that question every little microscopic detail which appear to not really be about fair discussion but about making MR look as though he's pure as the driven snow. JMO :)
 
Hello_Kitty said:
So are you saying that you think that just because TM was a drug addict she wouldn't think twice about having a nutcase like TLM babysit her Princess? TM didn't even want to breed her dog with CM's dog!!!
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I said nothing about TM other then my heart goes out to her and her loved ones...and no matter what she did or dint do she did not deserve what happen to her.

BUT someone allowed TLM to babysit, and lets face it addicts are not known for making the smartest of choices.
 
Macright said:
JMO

yes I was of that very same opinion until this trial started..I thought LE had so much evidence against both that it was a given...but as things started to unfold things didn't seem to add up to me and I decided to keep an open mind about this MR until I could honestly commit one way or the other...so far I am not convinced of his guilt in SOME of the charges so that is why I am bending a little to the left..... no one has really heard his take on this and I will never be convinced that TLM's version is the correct one...not after reading about her track record....and the changes that she makes to her statements... so before I become judge and jury I will wait it out to see what the other side has to say...whatever the outcome it will have no personal affect on me and I will just say justice was done...JMO
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I understand but what about the fact that MR and VS blood was found together and VS blood mixed with semen? There is no way with this evidence the man is innocent of rape. Murder TLM omitted to but Kidnapping if he didn't know at the time he sure realized it later. And how did he go on acting like nothing happened if he was an innocent dupe?

What charges do you wonder about?
 
Thinkzerz said:
This is a sleuths forum and to me i do believe MR is guilty but there is that reasonable doubt thing and I like when other sleuther's can seal a hole in some doubt when other doubtful posters (sometimes myself) post. If this makes sense?
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makes so much sense to me JMO....
 
Tahorn said:
I said nothing about TM other then my heart goes out to her and her loved ones...and no matter what she did or dint do she did not deserve what happen to her.

BUT someone allowed TLM to babysit, and lets face it addicts are not known for making the smartest of choices.
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I was responsding to the below quite made by you:

Tahorn said:
TLM listed babysitting of a 8 year old and a 5 year old on her resume, so I don't think the jury will consider that to be impossible. Besides all the people in TLM life were addicts so I doubt they would think twice about TLM babysiting.
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I don't see anything in your quote that says what you are saying you said.
 
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