17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #26

m00c0w said:

If Zimmerman did pull the gun first, I'd say you're correct. He loses his right to SYG because he made the first aggressive action - pulling a weapon out/showing it in a threatening manner (which is, itself, a crime). It's also entirely possible that Martin felt the gun/saw the gun when he was allegedly on top of Zimmerman, though.

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LolaMoon08 said:

One of my favorite quotes comes from the book "The Art of Worldly Wisdom" and it is the main reason that I do not trust people who over exaggerate:

Never exaggerate. It is a matter of great importance to forego superlatitives, in part to avoid offending the truth, in part to avoid the cheapening of your judgment. Exaggeration wastes distinction and testifies to the paucity of your understanding and your taste. Praise excites anticipation and stimulates desire. Afterwards when value does not measure up to price, disappointment turns against the fraud and takes revenge by cheapening both the appraised and the appraiser. For this reason let the prudent go slowly, and err in understatement rather than overstatement. The extraordinary of every kind is always rare, wherefore temper your estimate. Exaggeration is akin to lying. Through it you jeopardize your reputation for good taste, which is much, and for good judgment, which is more.

- The Art of Worldly Wisdom - Baltasar Gracian.

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LolaMoon08 said:

It's possible, but I think the whole "He reached for his phone" was actually "He reached for his gun." I don't believe George had the time or even the thought of putting his phone away while expecting a call back from LE at any time. I believe the phone was most likely still in his hand. It would also be interesting to know where his phone was when police arrived... I'm thinking that it was probably somewhere on the ground as he couldn't call 911 himself.

MOO

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LolaMoon08 said:

Another thing I guess could be asked is... if George was waiting for LE to call him back so he could tell them where he was, why wasn't the phone still in his hand?

eta: Why did he have to reach for a phone that should have been in his hand? How long before he hung up the phone until the altercation?

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suzihawk said:

But, but... how would he have the presence of mind to holster weapon when he was barely conscious and the the last thing he remembers is moving his head from the concrete and, well, you know...??


"George was out of breath, he was barely conscious, his last thing he remembers doing was moving his head from the concrete to the grass, so that if he was banged one more time he wouldn't be -- you know, wearing diapers for the rest of his life and being spoon fed by his brother, and there would have been George dead had he not acted decisively and instantaneously in that moment when he was being disarmed by --"

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...29/pmt.01.html

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momshrink said:

I have enjoyed the lively debate I'm this thread even though we don't all agree with everything others say. Most posts are thought provoking and some provide the badly needed humor :floorlaugh:.
IMO there will not be a trial. I think MO'M will convince GZ to take a plea deal and I think the state will also prefer this because the case would be resolved with the least amount of circus and no public disturbances. This will mean that we will not get all our questions answered. I think those in Florida's judicial systems learned from last summers circus/trial.
I do think there may be a hearing on the SYG issue, but no trial.
This is JMO

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m00c0w said:

I'm honestly not sure we'll ever know to any great degree what happened at that moment.

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songline said:

SORNGLINE REPLY
I would never watch this O'Donnell again he is a pack of wolves all by himself and I have no use for the likes of him.
IMO he needs civility lessons.

There are people in business that I consider I know them really well. But if you ask me what is their favorite food,
or color is, I have no clue. There are many people we vouch for regularly as being good people whether in business,
or in the area. How many reference letters have I written for people for jobs? MANY!
Same with some of my neighbors whom I know for 30-40 years --- but if you ask me have they ever been outside of NYS
I would not know.
So what if Oliver does not know him as well as you and some others say.
He knows him enough to know what he thinks of him, or if he trusts him, Does he have to know his intimate personal business???
I don’t tell anyone in my work, or neighborhood my personal business.
not even of my friend know my personal business, maybe one/two know more than the rest of them.

I think this case is bringing out the worst in people. I am astonished how this Man Oliver stands up to it all.
I would probaly tell them all to Go F off.

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momshrink said:

I have enjoyed the lively debate I'm this thread even though we don't all agree with everything others say. Most posts are thought provoking and some provide the badly needed humor :floorlaugh:.
IMO there will not be a trial. I think MO'M will convince GZ to take a plea deal and I think the state will also prefer this because the case would be resolved with the least amount of circus and no public disturbances. This will mean that we will not get all our questions answered. I think those in Florida's judicial systems learned from last summers circus/trial.
I do think there may be a hearing on the SYG issue, but no trial.
This is JMO

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RANCH said:

BBM
I would have to ask how long it would take to put his phone in his pocket? Maybe a couple of seconds. JMO.

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IzzyBlanche said:

Oh, I didn't, nor that moving his head from the concrete to the grass was "the last thing he remembered doing."

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songline said:

Natasha Richardson did not have one band aid. the ambulance came she said she is fine, she did not want to go with them
and just wanted to go to her foom to lay down. She never got up. I got this from a link that is not MSN or Fox.
And we do not need another virus. but the info below is a fact....

According to published reports, all present at the scene thought that the head injury sustained by Richardson was minor.
She was not unconscious, was able to fully respond to those offering her assistance and refused further medical evaluation.
Only later did she begin to develop a severe headache and was rushed to the hospital where it was discovered that she
sustained a brain hemorrhage causing pressure changes within the skull resulting in brain damage.

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LolaMoon08 said:

Yes, a couple of seconds, but why would he put his phone back in his pocket when he was expecting a call any second? He was following a suspicious person, who was on drugs, and checking him out. Unless he put the phone in his pocket so that he could take the gun out of the holster before he even caught up with Trayvon? That could be possible too.

MOO

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gxm said:

Was the hypothetical that every "negative" opinion about someone outside your race/gender/sexual preference is "animus." IMO, that is ambiguous to the point of indiscernible. And not very practical from a safety standpoint when you are, like me, a small woman who has received her share of hostile attention from men throughout her life. Granted, I don't carry a gun so I'm not in danger of shooting anyone. But still, I reserve the right to be suspicious of any man that creeps me out (and even ones that don't).

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

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suzihawk said:

But, but... how would he have the presence of mind to holster weapon when he was barely conscious and the the last thing he remembers is moving his head from the concrete and, well, you know...??


"George was out of breath, he was barely conscious, his last thing he remembers doing was moving his head from the concrete to the grass, so that if he was banged one more time he wouldn't be -- you know, wearing diapers for the rest of his life and being spoon fed by his brother, and there would have been George dead had he not acted decisively and instantaneously in that moment when he was being disarmed by --"

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...29/pmt.01.html

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uvamerica said:

You forgot the part where George was choking on all the blood that came from his nose that mysteriously didn't get on his shirt or jacket..:moo:

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m00c0w said:

Man, if a plea is offered and Zimmerman takes it (and it's a significantly lesser penalty)... I'm not sure I'd want to be a part of that prosecutorial staff with the violent extremists looming.

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m00c0w said:

That's actually a valid point I had not considered. He may have stuck it back in his pocket out of habit on his way back to his vehicle. If he felt he was in any danger, I'd have expected for him to keep it at the ready...

Then again, we also don't know how reliable that version of events is, anyway. I'm with you on wanting to see what he initially told police.

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IzzyBlanche said:

But why that particular blow? Why not the one before that or the one before that?

Look, this discussion is getting ridiculous. I stated already that it's the wording of the bolded: "The last thing he remembers doing was moving his head from the concrete to the grass, so that if he was banged one more time, he wouldn't be, you know, wearing diapers for the rest of his life and being spoon-fed by his brother" that I find so over the top, as if GZ knew exactly how many blows he could take before he'd be paralyzed.

If you interpret it differently, ok. Then we disagree.

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LolaMoon08 said:

BBM I don't think he was ever on his way back to his vehicle?

MOO

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