The Doe Network, Part 2: Who is Princess Blue?

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This is a link to a spreadsheet I made for law enforcement contacts. I contacted them either via email, fax or snail mail with a letter asking them if they would review their missing persons case files from 1975-1990 for any females that might fit Princess Blue's profile as well as asking them to forward the letter to any LE in their vicinty to have them go through their records. I asked them to contact Jay Coffman if they have any that fit Princess Blue's "stats"

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=ppBnEW1OaxaWn74emU2SiEg
 
Done deal Mrs G :)

Yes I think I should really mpve her down to her maiden name as suggested :) Who knows, she may have been known by her new name so long, that's how they listed her. Good looking out guys.

I love reading people's comments, suggestions, and zebra ideas on this... it's been so interesting and I feel like I am lurking again.

MG
 
This is a link to a spreadsheet I made for law enforcement contacts. I contacted them either via email, fax or snail mail with a letter asking them if they would review their missing persons case files from 1975-1990 for any females that might fit Princess Blue's profile as well as asking them to forward the letter to any LE in their vicinty to have them go through their records. I asked them to contact Jay Coffman if they have any that fit Princess Blue's "stats"

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=ppBnEW1OaxaWn74emU2SiEg


Great job, RKnowley!

Lion
 
Wow - you guys are leaving no stone unturned - I am impressed! I am totally kicking myself for not going to a party a few years ago...it was at someplace called Chocolate Bayou around Manvel. The department rented a bus and drove down from Houston and ended up getting totally lost and the whole thing was a bust. It might have helped out a little bit now if I had been driving all around the area for hours one night! Anyway, keep up the great work you guys!
 
Good question. It is not unheard of for details and/or facts to, "change". We see it all the time. But, in both the TX dps site, and on the doenetwork it states that at least the HS ring was on her skeletonized finger. But, I have always wondered about that. A skeletonized finger has no flesh, tendons, or ligaments left. With bone scatter by animals, etc.. how would her ring(s) stay on when she was out in the open for 6 months to a year or possibly up to 15 years? That doesn't make sense to me unless part of remains that included her hand(with rings on) were buried or protected in some way.

In any case I am trying to find out the ring sizes, and if I am able to then I will post info as soon as I can. It could be very helpful to know--that and her possible TOD based on what a forensic anthropologist/pathologist can tell us about bone marrow viability.

Lion


Hi all, sorry I have not been here--my son is done with his 1st communion prep and ready for the big day. I have been up to my eyeballs in church stuff all weekend!! Anyway---Lion, I was thinking about that too, in regards to the ring. Didn't I read somewhere that the person who found her, found "part" of her in a tire? Perhaps she was somewhat buried under the tire and the rubber would protect her hand? I really do think that she may have been the work of a serial killer--either that guy from CO, or someone similar. The guy from CO has said he has killed 50 + women, but has only been convicted of a few. I know the answer is right in front of us, we just need the right clue to piece it all together.
 
I can't recall who said it; but, this was mentioned as a possibility. Or, like aprilvic, a member here said, she is 115 LB and wears a size 8 on her ring finger and a size 9 1/2 on her index finger.

Although, genetics, joint disease or injury could determine the size and mass of fingers so can the heavy use of one's hands. So, that is another factor.

I am hoping for a more detailed update regarding Princess Blue's weight estimate via a recent work up by a good forensics source. I sure hope we can find that info out. It would make no sense to keep it as a hold back.

Until then I think we are stuck looking for a girl who may have been trim, average, large, or well--we just don't know:eek:!

Lion

To put things in perspective, I at one time was over 200 lbs(when preggers), but have always maintained a sz 6 ring size. My wedding ring was alittle tight but did not have to be re-sized. It would have taken a big weight fluctuation to be re-sized, I would think, or be given from someone who had much larger or smaller fingers. We should take a poll...is there anyone here (female) with a size 9 or larger ring size? I have small fingers, so 9 seems really big, but perhaps it is average?
 
To put things in perspective, I at one time was over 200 lbs(when preggers), but have always maintained a sz 6 ring size. My wedding ring was alittle tight but did not have to be re-sized. It would have taken a big weight fluctuation to be re-sized, I would think, or be given from someone who had much larger or smaller fingers. We should take a poll...is there anyone here (female) with a size 9 or larger ring size? I have small fingers, so 9 seems really big, but perhaps it is average?
This is really going to get confusing figuring out the darn ring! Such a wide variation of possibility. Another poster was 115lbs in weight, and wore a size 8, because she had big hands. You were wearing a size 6 while preggers, and yet PB weight originally was estimated at 175 based on size 9 ring (but we don't know the finger it was on). Average unsized rings in jewelry stores/retail come a standard size 7. Depending on the ring design & stone settings, it can be sized up or down a max of 2 sizes, without reshaping/cutting the side shanks. I'm assuming the ring started out as a size 7, because the ring is still in a good round shape, and the shank designs don't look warped/stretched from sizing. It's easy to tell a ring that's gone to extreme sizing, I had a ring taken from a 7 down to a 4, and the bottom part of the band is somewhat oval, because if sides were pulled in to make it perfectly round, it would pop the stones out. Same thing in reverse, the sides of PB's ring would not be a perfect circle from the top of the ring, and look stretched. I don't see that in any view of her ring. Her ring was sized up twice according to the jeweler and going 1/2 size up is not that much of a difference. So, I'm pretty much convinced, the original size was 7, sized to 8, then 9.

ETA: If Balfours had records from 1974-75, we'd have a short list of possible owners real quick! Who bought size 7 rings with blue stones? But nooooo....that would be tooo easy!:D
 
This is really going to get confusing figuring out the darn ring! Such a wide variation of possibility. Another poster was 115lbs in weight, and wore a size 8, because she had big hands. You were wearing a size 6 while preggers, and yet PB weight originally was estimated at 175 based on size 9 ring (but we don't know the finger it was on). Average unsized rings in jewelry stores/retail come a standard size 7. Depending on the ring design & stone settings, it can be sized up or down a max of 2 sizes, without reshaping/cutting the side shanks. I'm assuming the ring started out as a size 7, because the ring is still in a good round shape, and the shank designs don't look warped/stretched from sizing. It's easy to tell a ring that's gone to extreme sizing, I had a ring taken from a 7 down to a 4, and the bottom part of the band is somewhat oval, because if sides were pulled in to make it perfectly round, it would pop the stones out. Same thing in reverse, the sides of PB's ring would not be a perfect circle from the top of the ring, and look stretched. I don't see that in any view of her ring. Her ring was sized up twice according to the jeweler and going 1/2 size up is not that much of a difference. So, I'm pretty much convinced, the original size was 7, sized to 8, then 9.

ETA: If Balfours had records from 1974-75, we'd have a short list of possible owners real quick! Who bought size 7 rings with blue stones? But nooooo....that would be tooo easy!:D

I sent them an email about resizing since they offer lifetime resizing, and unfortunately they don't keep records that far back.
 
Hi all, sorry I have not been here--my son is done with his 1st communion prep and ready for the big day. I have been up to my eyeballs in church stuff all weekend!! Anyway---Lion, I was thinking about that too, in regards to the ring. Didn't I read somewhere that the person who found her, found "part" of her in a tire? Perhaps she was somewhat buried under the tire and the rubber would protect her hand? I really do think that she may have been the work of a serial killer--either that guy from CO, or someone similar. The guy from CO has said he has killed 50 + women, but has only been convicted of a few. I know the answer is right in front of us, we just need the right clue to piece it all together.

Hi julessleuther:). Princess Blue's skull was found in a tire according to the news article. We don't know where they found the rest of her remains. We also don't know how much of her remains were found.

I found possibly 3 separate serial killers, working independently in the 80's and early 90's in that area. Robert Charles Browne(I posted some info on him already), Roy Alan Stuart, and Robert Ben Rhoades. There may have been more. I am still researching on my very low speed connection so it takes me a long time.

ETA: There is a possible 4th who it seems was looked at for 4 murders of young women in League City. I don't think it was ever solved. League City is less than 30 miles East by North East and a straight shot up Texas 6 to Manvel. It is yet another of the many possibly connections I have found so far. The suspects name was Robert William Abel, a former aerospace engineer at NASA.

I am uncovering an odd number of UID's, missing and murdered girls and women from Brazoria and surrounding counties during the 80's and early 90's. One UID skeletal remains of a woman was found in the small town(pop less than 3,500) town of Manvel 3 years after Princess Blue near to where Princess was found. I find this especially coincidental--if it really is.

It apparently got so bad at one time that the FBI got together with officials from various counties including Brazoria County to help solve some of the cases.

I haven't been on much compared to usual because I am spending a lot of time copying and pasting along with researching what might might be pertinent--however remote the chance. It seems astounding though.

There is so much here to look at so far that it would be a challenge to put things together to connect them. If there was just one known serial killer it would be a heck of a lot easier. And, remember that Princess Blue could have been killed by anyone--not necessarily by any serial killer. I am working hard on trying to find a real, in your face connection. If I do that may help us. Then again it may not. Time and research will hopefully tell, though.

Lion
 
To put things in perspective, I at one time was over 200 lbs(when preggers), but have always maintained a sz 6 ring size. My wedding ring was alittle tight but did not have to be re-sized. It would have taken a big weight fluctuation to be re-sized, I would think, or be given from someone who had much larger or smaller fingers. We should take a poll...is there anyone here (female) with a size 9 or larger ring size? I have small fingers, so 9 seems really big, but perhaps it is average?

Hi julessleuther:). This, combined with aprilvic being 115 LB with a size 8 ring and a size 9 1/2 index finger ring size tells me a lot. There are other examples, too. Basically, it seems that although ring size can be a rough estimate ate best, there are so many exceptions, that the exceptions can no longer be considered to be exceptions. In other words ring size does not seem to be a reliable factor in estimating weight in life. I am trying to find out what the other sizes of Princess Blue's rings; but, I don't know if I can find out. That could still be good info. I hope to be able to find out.

Lion
 
Hi julessleuther:).

ETA: There is a possible 4th who it seems was looked at for 4 murders of young women in League City. I don't think it was ever solved. League City is less than 30 miles East by North East and a straight shot up Texas 6 to Manvel. It is yet another of the many possibly connections I have found so far. The suspects name was Robert William Abel, a former aerospace engineer at NASA.

I am uncovering an odd number of UID's, missing and murdered girls and women from Brazoria and surrounding counties during the 80's and early 90's. One UID skeletal remains of a woman was found in the small town(pop less than 3,500) town of Manvel 3 years after Princess Blue near to where Princess was found. I find this especially coincidental--if it really is.

It apparently got so bad at one time that the FBI got together with officials from various counties including Brazoria County to help solve some of the cases.


Lion

You're absolutely right, Lion. There has been much speculation about the "I-45 killer" due to the sheer number of UIDs, missing, and murdered women along the I-45 corridor between Houston and Galveston during the 80's and 90's. Someone has done some good work here that may help:

http://www.crimesearch.net/MISSING_GIRLS.html

eta: oh, dur. Somebody already posted all this info - must have skipped pg 3 when reading - sorry guys!
 
Hi julessleuther:). This, combined with aprilvic being 115 LB with a size 8 ring and a size 9 1/2 index finger ring size tells me a lot. There are other examples, too. Basically, it seems that although ring size can be a rough estimate ate best, there are so many exceptions, that the exceptions can no longer be considered to be exceptions. In other words ring size does not seem to be a reliable factor in estimating weight in life. I am trying to find out what the other sizes of Princess Blue's rings; but, I don't know if I can find out. That could still be good info. I hope to be able to find out.

However, because a forensics team has just evaluated Princess Blue's bones possibly at the beginning of this year, we may want to keep checking the TX dps site for continuing updates. A forensic specialist's estimate of Princess's weight would over ride any of the ring size info. Let's hope that info, if there is any, makes it onto the site.

Lion
Bingo!! :clap: You got it, Lion! You said it better than I said it many pages back. What I was trying to say was that the only way PB's weight had been estimated was by that jeweler. We have to remember that was just a comment by someone not in forensics, 17 yrs. ago, saying that a size 9 1/2 female's ring might belong to approx. a 175 # female. It it my opinion that it never should have been put into that newspaper article, bec. everyone ran with the jeweler's comment as scientific fact. He would have had to be assuming she wore it in her ring finger to slap a label on like that, and as we've found out just from "polling" ppl. who browse here, that isn't a very accurate assumption. (Well, we all know what A$$.u.me means anyway, right?);)

I think it's interesting that all of her rings were silver (except the class ring, which we're thinking was wht. gold in order for it to have withstood the sizing), but then there's that one band with the "6 clear stones" that is different. maybe it WAS a wedding band...I think you guys are doing the right thing by looking into marriages as well as maiden names.

great job everyone!
 
Maybe i can help with some of the confusion on the timeline here with regard to the "new" forensics" on PB. First of all, I would just like you guys to know that there are an incredible amount of "coincidences" regarding this case. And I know, there are many ppl. who believe there is no such thing as a coincidence...so whatever meaning you would like to give it, I think there is def. some meaning to the fact that all this info. is coming together at relatively the same time. This cold case was one chosen by the Sheriff of Brazoria Co. (along with many others) quite a bit back, to be re-looked at and investigated. I'm not sure exactly which one of you also decided it had such great possibilities, and then decided to start this thread, which has had great success. So while LE was working on this under the radar, you guys also then put it out "publically," like this, and started working on it. It has been crazy how, as you guys have been brainstorming and researching HARD on your end, the timeline of things "behind the scenes" was coming along as well. KUDOS to all!:clap: :clap:

The forensic evaluation was done awhile back, before the facial reproduction, for sure, bec. that info. is used to create the drawings. When you guys saw the changes to the MPCH was when they had the documentaton to be able to change it. There has not been anything new since this case has been posted on WS. Does that make sense? I know it seemed like it, bec. some changes happened while you guys were talking here, and it made it seem like her case was different now...
Things do move frustratingly slowly in LE sometimes. It seems like all this could have been done by them much earlier...

Did this just make it more confusing/ I'm going to try to address some of the race/ancestry question in a new post.

warmly,
 
sloane, I have changed the vital statistics parameters of the letter to reflect the information you provided. I'm not going to send off to anyone until we all agree to whom the letter is to be sent, and that our information is as thorough as possible. Thanks so very much for providing this valuable information.
Jaded,
You are welcome, welcome, welcome!!:D You don't know how happy it makes me to be able to help! And THANK YOU (and everyone) for incorporating what I have to offer. I think this is such a great networking place and everyone seems to have an area of expertise...or at least an area in which they are willing to spend time researching, posting, what have you. We can all learn so much from each other.

Thanks for getting the letter ready.
warmly,
 
Isn't it possible to extract DNA from a tooth?

I saw a TV show where someone was thought to be a relative of someone who died on the Titanic. At least, I think it was the Titanic. I know the person had died long ago and they decided to try to test the deceased person's DNA against the potential relatives which confirmed they were related. So I think maybe it's possible to extract DNA long after a person dies, not just within a few years.

Hi Sable-
Yes, inside the molar and wisdom teeth in particular are EXCELLENT sources for DNA. One, bec. the soft interior, the pulp, from where the DNA is extracted, stays very protected from the environment because it is "encapsuled" in the enamel, and two, bec. the jaw bone can be quite strong, and if the wisdom teeth have not erupted yet, they are even more protected. (How's that for a long run-on sentence?)
DNA can also be extracted from marrow of other bones, of course. It just depends on what is available from the found remains, and what they haveenough of to be able to saw open to extract it. The problem is that not every professional can (is trained to) work w/ the tiny sections of tooth pulp. Larger section of bones are sometimes "easier."

I don't know if one can check for drug activity from teeth; It's on my list of questions I am asking a professional in the field as soon as i can!:cool:
 
Hi sleuthers:). Regarding me calling Brazoria County Sheriff's Department to learn whether or not they checked all missing info from 1975-1990 as opposed to only about 1988-1990 I decided to hold back until we have an answer regarding the bone marrow and other questions. I am having a heck of a time first locating the right dept. to even contact. Second, LE may not like spending time answering lots of calls from the public with questions for which they have to do research to find the info themselves--unless it seems to be a very good question.

If we can find out if it is forensically possible that Princess Blue could have been killed as far back as 1975 I will then contact them. First, we need the answers to the bone marrow questions. Second, we need to know the exact condition of Princess's skeletal remains and how they were found. If the remains were all out in the open(we know only that the skull was in a tire), then bone scatter and decay would follow a fairly predictable course. Bone scatter of course would not occur if the rest of the skeletal remains were in a closed container(bag, box, etc..). I can assume that the whole portion of remains was out in the open; but, I cannot be sure.

In addition, whether or not the bones were still articulated can very well indicate the TOD. Please see, "Estimating Time of Death at http://www.anthro4n6.net/forensics/.

I did; however, call the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office and spoke with, Lynn (in the lab?). I gave her Princess's Agency#, her NCIC#, and my phone number. She said she would forward my question to the correct person and have that person call me back. I do not hold out lots of hope for a call back and/or the answer to my question. My question was, "Will there be a new weight at TOD since the previous weight was 175LB and the new weight is "unknown"?" Let's cross our fingers that we get an answer.

Lion
 
Hi Sable-
Yes, inside the molar and wisdom teeth in particular are EXCELLENT sources for DNA. One, bec. the soft interior, the pulp, from where the DNA is extracted, stays very protected from the environment because it is "encapsuled" in the enamel, and two, bec. the jaw bone can be quite strong, and if the wisdom teeth have not erupted yet, they are even more protected. (How's that for a long run-on sentence?)
DNA can also be extracted from marrow of other bones, of course. It just depends on what is available from the found remains, and what they haveenough of to be able to saw open to extract it. The problem is that not every professional can (is trained to) work w/ the tiny sections of tooth pulp. Larger section of bones are sometimes "easier."

I don't know if one can check for drug activity from teeth; It's on my list of questions I am asking a professional in the field as soon as i can!:cool:

Hi sloane:). I understand that DNA encapsulated in molars or wisdom teeth are potentially an excellent source for DNA. We know that they were able to extract viable(to what extent, we don't know) DNA form Princess Blue. We know that they have dental info available(complete dentals? partial info form some teeth recovered? wisdom teeth impacted in the jaw bone?-- all unknown to us).

DNA recovered from inside a tooth that was encapsulated could be 1 year old or 20 years old. We can't necessarily tell how long Princess was dead from that.

We would have perhaps better luck looking specifically at the bone marrow that was tested for drugs(if that report was even accurate). There are certain conditions in which bone marrow would still be viable for testing drugs if left out in the open, in the climate of Manvel, Texas, for 15 years. That perhaps would tell us more.

It is also important, I think, to know the exact condition in which Princess's remains were found in. Were all of the bones present? If not, how many and which bones were found? Were they scattered? Is so, then how far? Were any of the bones still attached to each other(articulated)? If so, which ones? Were her remains protected in any way? For example, were they found wrapped in a blanket? In a trunk? Or were her bones totally out in the open?

I am sorry for being so, "precise" with questions that I have. I really think that is important in several issues concerning this case. Then again, i could be wrong.

Lion
 
Bingo!! :clap: You got it, Lion! You said it better than I said it many pages back. What I was trying to say was that the only way PB's weight had been estimated was by that jeweler. We have to remember that was just a comment by someone not in forensics, 17 yrs. ago, saying that a size 9 1/2 female's ring might belong to approx. a 175 # female. It it my opinion that it never should have been put into that newspaper article, bec. everyone ran with the jeweler's comment as scientific fact. He would have had to be assuming she wore it in her ring finger to slap a label on like that, and as we've found out just from "polling" ppl. who browse here, that isn't a very accurate assumption. (Well, we all know what A$$.u.me means anyway, right?);)

I think it's interesting that all of her rings were silver (except the class ring, which we're thinking was wht. gold in order for it to have withstood the sizing), but then there's that one band with the "6 clear stones" that is different. maybe it WAS a wedding band...I think you guys are doing the right thing by looking into marriages as well as maiden names.

great job everyone!

Thanks sloane:). I would like to know more about that darn band with 6 clear stones lol. I have always been under the impression that Princess was young (19 or less) because of the style of her jewelry. It reminds me of what a girl in her teens or late teens might wear. I could be mistaken though.

Lion
 
You're absolutely right, Lion. There has been much speculation about the "I-45 killer" due to the sheer number of UIDs, missing, and murdered women along the I-45 corridor between Houston and Galveston during the 80's and 90's. Someone has done some good work here that may help:

http://www.crimesearch.net/MISSING_GIRLS.html

I have a gut feeling that more than one killer was responsible for all of those deaths and disappearances. And, from my little bit of research I have found 3 definite and a possible 4th serial killer running amok in the Houston area fairly close to I-45 in the 80's and early 90's. There is so much info that I had to take break from it. I will try to link any that can possibly be linked via how they were dumped(clothed? nude?), where they were dumped, the description of the body(age, lifestyle, etc..), and time period. There may be more to link if I can find it.

Lion
 
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