Golf club or flashlight or....?

So sorry, I wouldn't agree. Hate to discuss this topic but if we would allow to assume that douchetip could cause hymenal damage then we should sue every TAMPON manufacturer for the sexual abuse:)....
I take your point, but a tampon is pliant (even the applicator), whereas a douchetip is molded plastic and could be wielded in a very rough manner.

The situation I am considering is one in which the pediatrician's exam and treatment might have been additive: speculum and/or digit, douchetip, sexual abuse. A cumulative insult.
 
I take your point, but a tampon is pliant (even the applicator), whereas a douchetip is molded plastic and could be wielded in a very rough manner.

Of course, even painbrush could be wielded in very rough manner:woohoo:
I hear you, I hear you....just doesn't ring the 'common sense' bell...:)...just MO...sorry...
 
There is a picture of JonBenet's trophies on this website - in which room were they displayed? Judging from the slanted walls, probably on the top floor (in the master bedroom?).

http://crimeshots.com/CrimeScene2.html

But, this has always stuck out to me. Does it look like the Ramsey's even sleep in their bed? Surely PR wouldn't have bothered to make it. She didn't have time. Anybody else notice this in the crime scene photos?
 
I take your point, but a tampon is pliant (even the applicator), whereas a douchetip is molded plastic and could be wielded in a very rough manner.

The situation I am considering is one in which the pediatrician's exam and treatment might have been additive: speculum and/or digit, douchetip, sexual abuse. A cumulative insult.

JB was a six year old girl. Consider the difference in size between an adult female and JB, and it seems very feasible the extended plastic tip of the bottle would reach into the areas where it could have caused damage.
 
Of course, even painbrush could be wielded in very rough manner:woohoo:
I hear you, I hear you....just doesn't ring the 'common sense' bell...:)...just MO...sorry...
There's certainly no need to apologize! :) We're all speculating here, no one knows what happened and I have great respect for your views. My point is really that everything JBR went through - vaginal examinations (perhaps utilizing a metal speculum), possibly douche treatments for infection, combined with sexual abuse including (but not limited to) the paintbrush - contributed to her vaginal trauma. Identifying the instruments of physical damage or torture might not bring us any closer to knowing who killed her. That's all I mean.
 
JB was a six year old girl. Consider the difference in size between an adult female and JB, and it seems very feasible the extended plastic tip of the bottle would reach into the areas where it could have caused damage.

I wasn't talking about 'adult female'...I was refering to teenagers...but besides the 'tampon' point I made, do you honestly believe that extended plastic tip on the douche bottle has the same dimension as the human finger (even 9 year old)??!!!!....
 
There's certainly no need to apologize! :) We're all speculating here, no one knows what happened and I have great respect for your views. My point is really that everything JBR went through - vaginal examinations (perhaps utilizing a metal speculum), possibly douche treatments for infection, combined with sexual abuse including (but not limited to) the paintbrush - contributed to her vaginal trauma. Identifying the instruments of physical damage or torture might not bring us any closer to knowing who killed her. That's all I mean.

Agree and thank you!...JBR in her short 6-years life has experienced such an unhuman cruelty that nobody could even imagine it's possible: sexual molestation, breaking the head in the half, strangulation....and I'm not even talking about all these crazy demends of the pageant 'expositions'...poor baby....RIP!:please:
 
I'm not speaking for midwest mama, but can tell you that a douchetip (like the smallest metal speculum for vaginal examinations) is exactly the size of my little finger - about half an inch in diameter, and over an inch longer. The whole point of a douchetip (no pun intended) is to enable the liquid to reach the cervix and cover the entire vaginal surface.
 
I wasn't talking about 'adult female'...I was refering to teenagers...but besides the 'tampon' point I made, do you honestly believe that extended plastic tip on the douche bottle has the same dimension as the human finger (even 9 year old)??!!!!....

Like you, hate to get so personal about these matters, but some of those tips flange out a bit at the top and are a bit bulbous, making them easily the same size at the very tip as that of a regular size, especially 9 year old boy size, human finger. :blushing:
 
JBR in her short 6-years life has experienced such an unhuman cruelty that nobody could even imagine it's possible: sexual molestation, breaking the head in the half, strangulation....and I'm not even talking about all these crazy demends of the pageant 'expositions'...poor baby....RIP!:please:
You are so right. It is unbelievable what that poor child went through, and we probably don't know the half of it. Watching the Ramseys' smug, arrogant demeanor in interviews makes me nauseous.
 
I for one have great doubts there was any douching going on. During her treatment for her cancer Patsy displayed horror that she had to go through treatments where anything was inserted in her. I can't see her doing any of this type cleaning ritual with her daughter. JMO
Somebody caused prior injuries, that have been related to digital penetration, and I think douching, might be the answer. As for PR being horrified at the thought of insertions, it could be said that she might have felt horror for herself, but not been empathetic towards others. Or, and this is a big if, depending on her mental state, she could have seen something so invasive, as the ultimate punishment. But, regardless of who did what to JB that night, I never doubted the douching claims. IMO, it sounds like something some mothers might do, who suspect sexual abuse...in an attempt to clean away the 'dirty'. And if the claims of JB soiling herself are true, she would have been dirty and germy, and the douching, would have been an effective cleaning method, although an inappropriate one. MOO
 
Like you, hate to get so personal about these matters, but some of those tips flange out a bit at the top and are a bit bulbous, making them easily the same size at the very tip as that of a regular size, especially 9 year old boy size, human finger. :blushing:

ok, ok, Girls...you successfully 'douched' me out!!!!!!!:truce:
PEACE and LOVE!!!!!
 
Does it sound reasonable that perhaps BR was standing on a chair waiting for JB to walk thru a door and hit her from above? Just a question.
As I have read here and on FFJ it is of the opinion that the marks on her back where made from the train track. As for the bruising or abrasions found on her body; these could have been made after she as hit on the head. She was after all still alive at that point in time. JMO

Flatlander,
Yes someone could have stamped on her head/body, if it was a rage attack?

Can you link the Hi-Tec shoes to any injuries on JonBenet, or even match the Hi-Tec shoes to the prints on the floor, then you have a BDI up and running?

BR could have been standing, but you have to factor in the sexual assault, here I reckon JonBenet was in some weird position and accidentaly fell?


.[/QUOTE]

IMOO I do not link any injuries to JB with the Hi Tech shoes/boots. Quite interesting read as follows:
ST Page 238
Two pairs of boots that were among the most difficult to retrieve belonged to Detective Sergeant Larry Mason and Detective Linda
ST Page 239
Arndt, both of whom had been in the house during the first hours. Arndt's clothing had been collected at the crime scene but not her footwear. It took a direct order from Commander Beckner before Arndt and Mason gave up their boots for testing, about a year after the murder, and it took still longer to get their fingerprints. Mason, the on-scene detective supervisor on December 26, had still not submitted a written report of his actions that day when I left after eighteen months.
A reserve sheriff's deputy who wore Hi- Tecs at the crime scene retained a lawyer before talking to Detective Gosage. Then we got the name of another patrol sergeant who had been in the basement that day. That was also a year late. At fourteen months, Gosage found that an FBI agent from Denver had been in the basement and owned Hi-Tecs. The final embarrassment in the Hi- Tec hunt came when Detective Gosage compared the radio log for December 26 with other reports and discovered that a number of boot-wearing law enforcement types had also been at the house but had never "aired out," or given their location, on the radio. That meant we never really knew which cops, firefighters, paramedics, and sheriff's deputies were there. It seemed that everybody and their damned brother went wandering through the crime scene that day, and running them down was a virtual impossibility.

As for BR standing on a chair hidden behind a door and waiting for JB to pass through ..... maybe, just maybe this would explain the chair placed in front of the train room door.
Sure it could have been part of the staging but it also could have been used as part of the crime.
And yes, I am positive if JB had been standing when struck in the head she would have fallen to the ground. Possibly on her back or rolled over on top of the train tracks. Just a possibility.
Just a little note:
You stated that: BR could have been standing, but you have to factor in the sexual assault, here I reckon JonBenet was in some weird position and accidentaly fell?
Possibly they had been playing doctor before she got down to the basement. At one time I understood that PR was aware of JB and BR little game and she wanted to seperate them as much as possible. I believe the paint brush was a staging tool before she was strangeled. And I further beleive that PR was the corporal punishment here.
 
Seems likely any discarded materials related to this might have been taken into evidence when they went through the house, unless it could have been "gotten rid of" along with some of the others items that were not found which were related to the crime. I think the idea of Patsy using a cleansing douche on JB is a DISTINCT possibility, and would be an absolute match to all the previous internal vaginal trauma that JB displayed.:moo:

This goes along with my favorite theory so I agree. Some think/thought that evidence was possibly stuffed into JR's golf bag thus the main reason he wanted his clubs.

Years ago we discussed the possibility Patsy grabbed JonBenet by the collar, twisting and pushing, while Patsy forced JonBenet into the bathroom, at which point maybe she was pushed into a doorknob. JonBenet's height at that time and the point of injury exactly matched the height level of a doorknob on a standard door. I can see that causing the depressed injury but I can't see it causing the head split. There had to be a lot of dispersed pressure to split a child's skull like that, especially since the velocity involved wasn't fast enough to break the skin (although her hair may have cushioned the blow).

I'm not married to any theory except the one that says one or both adult Ramseys know what happened.
 
Flashlight, golf club. I don't know which it was. But we should keep in mind the reactions of John and Patsy to the flashlight and the golf clubs.

They claimed the flashlight wasn't theirs. Which would show they wanted no part of it and didn't want it to be associated with them in ownership.

Then again, John wanted his golf club (and the bag too) to go with him. He didn't want to leave home without it.

How do these reactions help us decide which weapon was used?

Or, could JonBenet had been wacked with something different - a trophy?
you made a very good point about reactions. If I ever get the time, I'd like to sit down and compare inconsistencies, and non rememberings and see who, if anybody rhey seem to help. It wouldn't point to the killer, but it might help us elliminate somebody. For instance, the differing versions of whose idea it was to call 911. JR, PR, and BR all said it was JR's, but PR later claimed it was her idea. I also read a quote from PR, in their book, where JR said to call, and she asked, 'Are you sure?' And here's another big one I've been thinkiong about. The Rs, steadily contended that BR slept through everything, including the 911. Even after BR was reportedly heard in the tape enhancements, they stuck to their story, and used other failed enhancements to bolster their claims. JR later admitted that BR was awake that morning, but said he didn't realize it, until after BR said so, during the GJ procedings. But, they never admitted to BR being up during the call. BR, said he heard voices, but pretended to sleep. IMO, if the Rs were going to coach BR to lie, they would have coached him to back their story, but he didn't. He told a completely different version, and as far as I can tell, he didn't lie. So, whose voices were on the 911? I'm no enhancemnt expert, but what I heard with my cheap dollar store headphones, didn't sound like 3 voices. I heard 2, including what sounded like a stern male or deep voiced female, and a young female, or a baby voiced boy. Now, this is up to interpretation, but I heard the young voice speak, and then the stern voice ask, 'What did you do, what did you do?' and then the young voice answered with, 'nothing'. In the transcript, the word 'nothing', is attributed to PR saying, 'help me'. That may be PR's voice, but I do not hear her wailing for Jesus, and I don't hear 3 voices. So, was BR telling the truth, and if so, was this a conversation between JR and PR? or was BR talking to JR, as reported? I would guess if the Rs were lying, it would be to either protect BR, or to keep cops from asking what he witnessed or knew...just say he was asleep and knew nothing. But, if this is the case, why didn't BR back their story?
 
This goes along with my favorite theory so I agree. Some think/thought that evidence was possibly stuffed into JR's golf bag thus the main reason he wanted his clubs.

Years ago we discussed the possibility Patsy grabbed JonBenet by the collar, twisting and pushing, while Patsy forced JonBenet into the bathroom, at which point maybe she was pushed into a doorknob. JonBenet's height at that time and the point of injury exactly matched the height level of a doorknob on a standard door. I can see that causing the depressed injury but I can't see it causing the head split. There had to be a lot of dispersed pressure to split a child's skull like that, especially since the velocity involved wasn't fast enough to break the skin (although her hair may have cushioned the blow).

I'm not married to any theory except the one that says one or both adult Ramseys know what happened.

I'm with you, BOESP. I thought door knob would be 'perfect' candidate:)...but, I'm still searching for the right answer...

I'm reading and re-reading AR, looking for some kind of hidden clue. On page 7of AR, under 'Skull and Brain', after 'On removal of the skull cap....at the tip of the right temporal lobe is a 1/4" x 1/4" similar appearing purple contusion . Only very minimal contusion is present at the tip of the left temporal lobe.'.....hmmm...

I have no medical degree/knowledge but the location of the temporal lobe is on the sides of the head! And JBR has these contusions on both sides, visiable after 'removal of the skull cap'.....:banghead:....means (for now!), that these contusions were happened as the result of the blow or she fall and hit her head on both sides? ...puzzle....hope, otg or cynic could have an answer....
 
I'm another monkey in the tree that thinks, at least possibly, she fell on something. BR is the only one I see hitting her with a golf club, and I don't see the case as BDI. I can't see any reason for JR or PR to use a golf club on her (or a maglite). I especially don't see her being bashed in the head because she screamed or because she was getting away from the perp.
Count me in as another monkey in the tree that thinks JB got the skull fracture from her head being slammed against something.
 
OpenMind4U,
In a conversation with Steve Thomas, see page 1, Det. Arndt, and other consulting pediatricians. The latter agreed with him. Also in the autopsy report he details the biological evidence.

Lets put it this way, I do not think Meyer or anyone else is suggesting an acute sexual assault took place after the head injury?
Kolar's book has cleared up a lot re the time line of the injuries.
The experts that had been consulted by LE unanimously agreed that the head injury came before the strangulation:
J. Kolar in his book (p. 64):
"Necrosis", neurological changes to the brain cells, indicated a time of survival ranging between forty five (45) minutes to and two (2) hours.
As for the acute genital wound that produced the bleeding -
it was inflicted "perimortem with her death" (p. 66), "very near the actual time of her death" (ibid).
 
Kolar's book has cleared up a lot re the time line of the injuries.
The experts that had been consulted by LE unanimously agreed that the head injury came before the strangulation:
As for the acute genital wound that produced the bleeding -
it was inflicted "perimortem with her death" (p. 66), "very near the actual time of her death" (ibid).

Agree (see post #28). Now, what do you think 'acute injury' is part of the 'staging' or not? And before you'll answer, let's read definition of 'acute injury': 'An acute injury is an injury that occurred recently as a result of a traumatic event'.
 

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