Trial Thread 4/12/2012

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swedie said:
MR's mega woman list. More than likely using them all at the same time. Am I missing any women? Ten so far. HTH

-TLM - helped MR abduct Tori for sexual deviance
-Lane -
-<modsnip> - G/F at the time of his arrest
-Joy - met MR in GLF parking lot day of his arrest
-Amanda
-Kate
-BA ex lover, girly talks with MR, drug dealer
-Hodge
-T. Moore aka Tam Tam, met on Yahoo 2003. MR bought car in 2007, used car lot in TO
-M. LaBute, Staples described MR as needy.
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A woman mentioned here, a J. Etsell:
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/21/9520751-sun.html
 
Did TLM ever state what was done with Tori's missing clothes or what she thought may have been done?
 
Hello_Kitty said:
Maybe the reason they didn't find sperm in the seminal (semen) fluid is because MR is sterile? Could that be? <modsnip>. Or as Mclean explained, it was washed out when they washed the car.
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This could be..... but then I wonder what the condoms were for? Maybe he didn't want anyone to know he was sterile?

Salem
 
nobodyzgirl said:
There has been no testimony to support that the seat was put back in either. At the end of it all, it doesn't really matter, except to be used towards TLM's credibility, seeing as it was never located and therefore there was never any forensic testing done. it really is redundant and no one, other than one witness can recall whether chunks of fabric were cut out or not. JMO

Just because the woman who found the sneaker can't remember when she found it, doesn't mean the witness who saw the seat removed in March is incorrect. He could have an excellent memory, there are people out there that remember everything, so it isvery possible. JMO

For me this creates reasonable doubt on what TLM said regarding the seat. Again, JMO
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BBM

TLM has provided the direct witness testimony that the seat was in the car at the time of the crime. I'm not sure why this direct evidence keeps getting dismissed. TLM's credibility is a problem, the Crown has agreed to that, but the jury has the option of believing any or all of her testimony. So there is direct witness testimony that the seat was there. And her credibility regarding the details of this particular crime is being bolstered daily by circumstantial evidence.

And the witness who claimed to have seen the seat being removed in March, didn't even remember saying that to LE. So their memory is reasonably doubtful as well.

MOO
 
Macright said:
there is only one person so far who has testified that MR raped TS and that is the one who is convicted of murder and also confessed that it was she herself who swung the hammer...what other pieces of evidences are you talking about...can you list them...:what::moo: I may have missed something:banghead::banghead:
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Let me give it a shot - it will be good to try to pull everything together:

1. MR cruising the school - captured on video
2. MR at atm - captured on video
3. MR at BA's house - testimony
4. MR at Home Depot - captured on video
5. Unknown sperm cells mixed with Tori's blood on door moulding
6. MR's blood mixed with Tori's blood on gym bag
7. The missing back seat and the trash pick up
8. TLM's testimony, which appears to be verified by other witnesses, videos, and forensic evidence. She may have lied, but not everything she said was a lie.
9. MR's own lies. He lied to the police. He lied to several women who have testified.

That's all I can think of at the moment, but I reserve the right to come back and edit this post anytime I want to add to this list.

Salem

And for futher information regarding MR's culpability, I highly recommend this post: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7782694&postcount=428"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Thread 4/12/2012[/ame]
 
snoofer said:
he mentioned on the audio with LE...told LE we will just call her "Leslie" for some reason i am thinking that is the oakville one:twocents:
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I was just wondering if she was included on the list of women.
 
Bravo said:
Did TLM ever state what was done with Tori's missing clothes or what she thought may have been done?
Click to expand...

I believe she testified that Victoria's clothes as well as her jacket, shoes and backpack were disposed of along with TLM's white coat, MR's shirt, the hammer and the water bottles in garbage bags that were tossed in a dumpster at the car wash/variety store.

MOO
 
Salem said:
Let me give it a shot - it will be good to try to pull everything together:

1. MR cruising the school - captured on video
2. MR at atm - captured on video
3. MR at BA's house - testimony
4. MR at Home Depot - captured on video
5. Unknown sperm cells mixed with Tori's blood on door moulding
6. MR's blood mixed with Tori's blood on gym bag
7. The missing back seat and the trash pick up
8. TLM's testimony, which appears to be verified by other witnesses, videos, and forensic evidence. She may have lied, but not everything she said was a lie.
9. MR's own lies. He lied to the police. He lied to several women who have testified.

That's all I can think of at the moment, but I reserve the right to come back and edit this post anytime I want to add to this list.

Salem
Click to expand...

#5 - it couldn't be determined who the sperm belonged to. (ETA: I don't believe for a second it was from a different layer)

...but good job, and I'm sure we'll be able to add to that list
 
roseofsharon said:
I was just wondering if she was included on the list of women.
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I believe she predates the women on the list for at least the few months leading up to this crime. As well as the girlfriend that he was going to move in with that lived with him in his mother's home while he was seeing the woman in Oakville.

MOO
 
daisy.faithfull said:
If MTR is found guilty of all charges, he only serves one twenty-five year "life" sentence, right?
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Yes 25 years for 1st degree murder. Unless they can show he's a dangerous offender he may serve longer. He probably will not get a chance for parole until 25 years.

IMO the abduction and murder charges have been proven. Although he was not the one to abduct Tori, he put TLM up to it, knowing she would. The chances of him pulling off an abduction on his own would be much more difficult. The murder charge will stick because MR helped TLM dispose of Tori no matter what he claims he was doing while TLM was swinging that hammer. IMO he's guilty because he didn't go to LE with what he stumbled upon after his little stroll, IF we are to believe the defense's theory. Personally I don't buy it.

Now it's just a case of showing the sexual assault which would back up motive as to why Tori was abducted. With all these women coming forward testifying they had a relationship with MR, goes to show his need for sex and not necessarily to show he was seeking a long term relationship. There is sexual dysfunction going on somewhere in MR's mind and relationships. It would interesting and helpful to see a psychiatric report on him. :moo:
 
With all this DNA evidence, or lack thereof, I think we are forgetting one major factor which will come into play when the jury deliberates this case. The majority of us all have a certain amount of common sense, while I am sure that the jury will be instructed to decide only on the facts presented it is only human nature to trust your gut and go with what most of our common sense tells us about this case.

Also, MR is charged with three crimes, First Degree Murder, Sexual Assault and Kidnapping. The Crown knew going into the trial there wouldn't be enough conclusive physical evidence to link MR to a sexual assault however they did have TLM version of the story. Sometimes psychical evidence isn't present but circumstantial or eyewitness testimony is strong enough to sway to conviction, did Rafferty sexually assault Victoria? My opinion is a most certain yes. What other possible explanation could there be for MR to be in the presence of Victoria Stafford, have her in his vehicle on a remote road 1 hour plus away from the child's home? Not to mention a pit stop along the way to purchase garbage bags and a hammer? Clearly my mind says both were up to no good and this was a premeditated act.(first degree murder)

If they cant convict on the sexual assault, he clearly isn't out of the woods on the kidnapping charges. Does anyone know about the kidnapping chargers, if a child is kidnapped held against their will and dies during the abduction, does that not carry a life sentence as well?? If death occurs during a sexual assault that too is also punishable by life? According to my read of the criminal code of Canada death during a kidnapping would also put him away for 25 years??? Yes or No??
 
swedie said:
I guess it will be up to the jurors who to believe. So far TLM's testimony stands on firm ground IMHO. MR is really starting to appear more and more like a sexual deviant and capable of abducting children, especially with this latest woman's testimony. It's not looking hopeful for MR. :moo:

Someone may come forward yet to back up TLM's testimony that the seat was there shortly after Tori's death. Maybe TLM didn't actually cut chunk out of the material, but moreso slit it open enough to dig in to pull out chucks of foam. A slit would be less noticeable and less noticeable foam was missing :moo:
Click to expand...

What was TLM's actual testimony on this point? I have seen tweets that say she cut out parts of the seat, and threw the foam out the window:


Cynthia Mulligan&#8207;@CityCynthia

#rafferty - McClintic says Rafferty told her to use a knife to cut out parts of back seat. Threw the stained foam out the window

But I have read nothing to suggest that she made a slit in the seat so it would be less noticeable. I would think that if she had made tiny slits so it wouldn't be noticeable, then someone would have clarified that with her while they had her on the stand. The way the tweet is worded, I'm apt to take the statement literally to mean that she testified that she cut out chunks of the seat and threw foam out the window.

This is not to say I do or do not believe the testimony, just that she testified to chunks, not slices KWIM? :twocents:
 
SFB73 said:
With all this DNA evidence, or lack thereof, I think we are forgetting one major factor which will come into play when the jury deliberates this case. The majority of us all have a certain amount of common sense, while I am sure that the jury will be instructed to decide only on the facts presented it is only human nature to trust your gut and go with what most of our common sense tells us about this case.

Also, MR is charged with three crimes, First Degree Murder, Sexual Assault and Kidnapping. The Crown knew going into the trial there wouldn't be enough conclusive physical evidence to link MR to a sexual assault however they did have TLM version of the story. Sometimes psychical evidence isn't present but circumstantial or eyewitness testimony is strong enough to sway to conviction, did Rafferty sexually assault Victoria? My opinion is a most certain yes. What other possible explanation could there be for MR to be in the presence of Victoria Stafford, have her in his vehicle on a remote road 1 hour plus away from the child's home? Not to mention a pit stop along the way to purchase garbage bags and a hammer? Clearly my mind says both were up to no good and this was a premeditated act.(first degree murder)

If they cant convict on the sexual assault, he clearly isn't out of the woods on the kidnapping charges. Does anyone know about the kidnapping chargers, if a child is kidnapped held against their will and dies during the abduction, does that not carry a life sentence as well?? If death occurs during a sexual assault that too is also punishable by life? According to my read of the criminal code of Canada death during a kidnapping would also put him away for 25 years??? Yes or No??
Click to expand...

Yes that is correct, the death during a kidnapping is enough grounds for him to be convicted of first degree murder. I think the sexual assault ties into the motive for the kidnapping in the first place which is why it is being discussed. They have to prove that the intent was to kidnap Victoria. And to prove that it is good to know a motive. And common sense does dictate that a 28yr old man would know better than to take a random child on a 1hr journey to visit his drug supplier on the say so of an 18yr old drug addict. Especially as we are know hearing, he didn't have a backseat in his car and the child had nowhere to sit but on the floor? And she didn't balk at this at all? Even though she didn't know either of them? Common sense. It's a wonderful thing.

MOO
 
Shasta said:
Steven D'Souza &#8207; @cbcsteve
Witnesses going quickly now.Crown using them all to establish that #Rafferty threw out back seat of car after Tori's disppearance #sl

I know some here don't believe what's bolded above but if you consider the opposite--that the car seat was gone before the TS abduction, then the Crown would have brought forth the Tennyson neighbours of MTR only to sabotage it's own case. The Crown would not do this. Derestine's questions to the neighbours had the desired effect of confusing the witnesses and testimony. But I don't think he established reasonable doubt in this instance. Especially with the numbers of witnesses corroborating each other on the car seat. JMO

Agree that we are all entitled to our opinions.
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Question:
If they don't want to present evidence that would not bolster their case, then why did they present the hairs from the pea coat? These were not matched to Victoria right? How did this help their case? I hope they're going somewhere further with that because that one, I just don't understand. :twocents:
 
Kamille said:
Yes that article pretty much suggests that McLean has stated that the entire science of DNA is unreliable and they have no idea if blood stains or any other stains are really just multiple stains on top of each other. Or how sperm would get somewhere when there is no trace of semen.

I have never trusted the science of DNA. There are just too many possibilities and variables for me. Although I do think it's useful in determining identity markers only.

MOO
Click to expand...

I believe the DNA was "most likely" from a sperm faction. (on the car door frame). That coupled with Tori not having pants and TLM testimony it is reasonable to deduct there was a sexual assault. Too many coincidences for me. JMO
 
For those of you wondering about the 40 yr. old who testified this afternoon and no name was given...

Linda Nguyen &#8207; @LindaNguyenPN
Her name is covered under a publication ban. She said he told her he was trying to help a friend who was in jail (Terri-Lynne McClintic)
 
SFB73 said:
With all this DNA evidence, or lack thereof, I think we are forgetting one major factor which will come into play when the jury deliberates this case. The majority of us all have a certain amount of common sense, while I am sure that the jury will be instructed to decide only on the facts presented it is only human nature to trust your gut and go with what most of our common sense tells us about this case.

Also, MR is charged with three crimes, First Degree Murder, Sexual Assault and Kidnapping. The Crown knew going into the trial there wouldn't be enough conclusive physical evidence to link MR to a sexual assault however they did have TLM version of the story. Sometimes psychical evidence isn't present but circumstantial or eyewitness testimony is strong enough to sway to conviction, did Rafferty sexually assault Victoria? My opinion is a most certain yes. What other possible explanation could there be for MR to be in the presence of Victoria Stafford, have her in his vehicle on a remote road 1 hour plus away from the child's home? Not to mention a pit stop along the way to purchase garbage bags and a hammer? Clearly my mind says both were up to no good and this was a premeditated act.(first degree murder)

If they cant convict on the sexual assault, he clearly isn't out of the woods on the kidnapping charges. Does anyone know about the kidnapping chargers, if a child is kidnapped held against their will and dies during the abduction, does that not carry a life sentence as well?? If death occurs during a sexual assault that too is also punishable by life? According to my read of the criminal code of Canada death during a kidnapping would also put him away for 25 years??? Yes or No??
Click to expand...

Yes it does. If he was there, he is just as guilty as TLM of murder.

So far, we know Tori was in his car. Surveillance video proves TLM lured Tori from school. Surveillance video proves TLM was him when Tori was "missing". We have TLM's testimony and so far her testimony has credibility except we don't know why she changed her original story that MR was the one who wielded the hammer but that doesn't matter because as an accomplice, he's just as guilty. Sperm and blood DNA matching Tori was found in the car. He lied to police officers. He disposed of his back car seat.

IMO, the Crown has proven their case beyond reasonable doubt. If the defenders can provide a reasonable explanation as to why the accused child kidnapper, rapist and killer had a stranger's child in his car, drove 2 hours to an isolated location so the convicted murderer can have a chat with the 8 year old child, I'll listen. Can't wait. :rolleyes:
 
~n/t~ said:
Yes it does. If he was there, he is just as guilty as TLM of murder.

So far, we know Tori was in his car. Surveillance video proves TLM lured Tori from school. Surveillance video proves TLM was him when Tori was "missing". We have TLM's testimony and so far her testimony has credibility except we don't know why she changed her original story that MR was the one who wielded the hammer but that doesn't matter because as an accomplice, he's just as guilty. Sperm and blood DNA matching Tori was found in the car. He lied to police officers. He disposed of his back car seat.

IMO, the Crown has proven their case beyond reasonable doubt. If the defenders can provide a reasonable explanation as to why the accused child kidnapper, rapist and killer had a stranger's child in his car, drove 2 hours to an isolated location so the convicted murderer can have a chat with the 8 year old child, I'll listen. Can't wait. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

:goodpost:

Not too long ago another Sleuther here reminded all of us there was a time before DNA. I think it may be appropriate to remind everyone once again of this. There comes a time when good old common sense comes into play. In the good old days before DNA I believe all the witnesses so far in this case would have proven the Crown's case.
 
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