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Old 04-06-2010, 12:58 AM
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WA - Shantina Smiley, 29, & Azriel Carver, 8 (fnd deceased), Olympia, Mar 2010 - #6

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Old 04-06-2010, 01:24 AM
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This is in response to the Examiner.com story posted on the last thread. If someone could repost that may be helpful. There was a statement that the investigators did not think the various items would have washed up together. That is what several here have thought as well. It would seem then that at the area around the stairs was above the highwater mark. That makes sense in that you would expect the stairs to have a stable base not subject to wash out underneath considering how treacherous the stairs were in height. So it was likely that area of permanent dry beach that these items were found.

The lack of identification of the man's shoe. The house above this area where the 4 pounding knocks came are the most mysterious parts of the story to me. The fact there was no follow up to the knock on an entry door or doorbell ring or even trying another home until help was found if the situation was an emergency. But, why were the items left there? In one area like that where they were sure to be found. What purpose would it serve? If they didn't wash up there, then they were left there on purpose, right? What reason could there be?
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Old 04-06-2010, 01:44 AM
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http://ww.examiner.com/x-34328-Seatt...-still-missing

It was also brought up on the other thread by some who felt these items weren't found together, but rather here and there as the person walked along the beach. The Deputy indicates they WERE found together:

Quote:
"It was interesting that the items belonging to Shantina and Azriel found on the beach were just below the housing development where this house is located. The items were about 50-60 yards from the house, just down a steep stairway," Chamberlain said.

He found it peculiar, he said, that the items would all be found at the same location on the beach. Chamberlain said he does not believe the items were washed out to sea as originally believed because of the difference in weight and size of the items. He believes it is more likely Shantina and Azriel walked down the beach and that they had the items with them.

"It is unlikely they would all float to that spot," Chamberlain said. "Perhaps they walked down the beach and became trapped by the incoming tide, or they tried climbing the steep stairs and slipped, getting trapped in the water."
He's been involved in the investigation. If he says they were found in the same location, they were.

Last edited by Calliope; 04-06-2010 at 01:45 AM.
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Old 04-06-2010, 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by houndstooth View Post
This is in response to the Examiner.com story posted on the last thread. If someone could repost that may be helpful. There was a statement that the investigators did not think the various items would have washed up together. That is what several here have thought as well. It would seem then that at the area around the stairs was above the highwater mark. That makes sense in that you would expect the stairs to have a stable base not subject to wash out underneath considering how treacherous the stairs were in height. So it was likely that area of permanent dry beach that these items were found.

The lack of identification of the man's shoe. The house above this area where the 4 pounding knocks came are the most mysterious parts of the story to me. The fact there was no follow up to the knock on an entry door or doorbell ring or even trying another home until help was found if the situation was an emergency. But, why were the items left there? In one area like that where they were sure to be found. What purpose would it serve? If they didn't wash up there, then they were left there on purpose, right? What reason could there be?
They were found just a day or two after the search in that area was called off, IIRC. I'd like to know how often the woman walks that part of the beach, and had she walked there since the van was found.
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Old 04-06-2010, 01:57 AM
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http://www.nwcn.com/home/Fiance-Item...ry=y&img=0&c=y


Shantina Smiley: Update from police; no foul play suspected, Shantina still missing

http://www.examiner.com/x-34328-Seat...-still-missing

Brought over the pic and Examiner article, to this thread.
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http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...er#post5351180
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:04 AM
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Thanks Calliope! Great question. For one thing, even if SHE didn't walk the beach, one would have hoped that investigators would have covered that area and known whether or not they were there on Sunday morning!

I agree totally that the items did not wash up there but were seeded for a particular reason. But, why not have just left them in the van and allow them to wash up wherever the tide took them. Why go to the trouble of taking things like the balls out to put in a particular location. Was it to lead investigators away from there in a false direction? Like a breadcrumb trail to lead away from another location? All of this seems staged, but, all that was needed apparantly to make investigators think she drowned was to leave the doors open on the beach! She must have thought she needed to do more. IDK.

Didn't you find it curious that RS even now is expecting her to be hiding out in someone's basement? I think she is no longer in the area. But, on the other hand I wondered if he had a particular basement in mind when he said that.
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:10 AM
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Where is RS talking about the basement?
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:11 AM
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FYI, the Examiner is not a real newspaper, more of a blog site.
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:13 AM
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RS is behaving like many of us would in his situation, holding out hope that somehow she is alive.
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulR View Post
FYI, the Examiner is not a real newspaper, more of a blog site.
Do you think this reporter is lying? Why would she make up a quote from a Deputy she names in her article?

http://www.co.thurston.wa.us/sheriff...hamberlain.htm

ETA: impressive resume. if he says the items didn't wash ashore, I believe him.

Last edited by Calliope; 04-06-2010 at 02:31 AM. Reason: added link
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:19 AM
houndstooth houndstooth is offline
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Where is RS talking about the basement?
It was quoted in a post by BeanE from the Peninsuladailynews in the last thread.
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:21 AM
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RS is behaving like many of us would in his situation, holding out hope that somehow she is alive.
I can say with a degree of certainty I wouldn't be planning a memorial service less than 2 weeks after my loved one went missing. Makes me wonder if LE has shared something with him that they aren't making public.
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:22 AM
houndstooth houndstooth is offline
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FYI, the Examiner is not a real newspaper, more of a blog site.
I hope you won't hold that against publications as most so-called mainstream newspapers have an online edition. Just because a "paper" is on newsprint does not give their articles more credence. What is wrong with an on-line newspaper? It's the wave of the future.
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:26 AM
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I hope you won't hold that against publications as most so-called mainstream newspapers have an online edition. Just because a "paper" is on newsprint does not give their articles more credence. What is wrong with an on-line newspaper? It's the wave of the future.
The writer of that article is a member here. I've seen nothing in her articles to indicate she hasn't researched the subject and she includes her sources by name. I'm sure she can answer to any questions about her sources.
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:50 AM
Calliope Calliope is offline
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Originally Posted by houndstooth View Post
Thanks Calliope! Great question. For one thing, even if SHE didn't walk the beach, one would have hoped that investigators would have covered that area and known whether or not they were there on Sunday morning!

I agree totally that the items did not wash up there but were seeded for a particular reason. But, why not have just left them in the van and allow them to wash up wherever the tide took them. Why go to the trouble of taking things like the balls out to put in a particular location. Was it to lead investigators away from there in a false direction? Like a breadcrumb trail to lead away from another location? All of this seems staged, but, all that was needed apparantly to make investigators think she drowned was to leave the doors open on the beach! She must have thought she needed to do more. IDK.

Didn't you find it curious that RS even now is expecting her to be hiding out in someone's basement? I think she is no longer in the area. But, on the other hand I wondered if he had a particular basement in mind when he said that.
SS and AZ washing out to sea out of the van just seemed implausible to me. I don't believe that is what happened.

As far as how those items got on the beach and why... I have no idea. But why only these items? And what is the significance of the man's shoe? If Shantina was there on that section of the beach, then where is her purse and bag? And then there's her wallet. It may have fallen from the front pocket of her sweatshirt or out of her purse as she grabbed it out of the van. Or it could have been left behind or placed there intentionally.
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:52 AM
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Responding re quote from Deputy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calliope View Post
The writer of that article is a member here. I've seen nothing in her articles to indicate she hasn't researched the subject and she includes her sources by name. I'm sure she can answer to any questions about her sources.
I spoke with Chief Criminal Deputy Jim Chamberlain on Friday and the information in the article is the information he provided to me. I have covered this case since Shantina and her son went missing.

It is my understanding, as well, that online news publications are the wave of the future.

Isabelle Zehnder
www.seattleheadlinesexaminer.com
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Old 04-06-2010, 03:07 AM
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Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calliope View Post
SS and AZ washing out to sea out of the van just seemed implausible to me. I don't believe that is what happened.

As far as how those items got on the beach and why... I have no idea. But why only these items? And what is the significance of the man's shoe? If Shantina was there on that section of the beach, then where is her purse and bag? And then there's her wallet. It may have fallen from the front pocket of her sweatshirt or out of her purse as she grabbed it out of the van. Or it could have been left behind or placed there intentionally.
I lean towards the wallet left intentionally. To be sure they had her ID. She was in a vehicle that was not registered to her. I think the Van was supposed to have been washed away and been found later. But, I am unclear where the wallet was actually found. I too think that it's implausible for them to wash out considering the water there would have had the weakest current, due to it's being a coved area. I almost think that Az would have been taken further out to arrive on that island located midchannel. My worst case scenario is the person who she was arranged to meet with for a rendezvous came by boat. He picked them both up. Az was uncooperative and the guy threw him overboard in a deeper channel.

I would like for investigators to try to recreate the time and tides. With a painted test dummy to his weight let the tide drift and see where it would have washed up. If it does not come up on Fox Island, then it can be determined after a couple tests that he was intentionally dumped from another location.
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Old 04-06-2010, 03:08 AM
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Just curious, does anyone know if the video of her allegedly purchasing the wine shows her leaving the store with it? IIRC, LE said it did not appear on the receipt.
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Old 04-06-2010, 03:11 AM
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I hope you won't hold that against publications as most so-called mainstream newspapers have an online edition. Just because a "paper" is on newsprint does not give their articles more credence. What is wrong with an on-line newspaper? It's the wave of the future.
Because it's not a newspaper. Anyone can go write for the Examiner, you just need to set up an account.

And yes, someone I happen to know also has an Examiner column. He's not a journalist, and he's not writing for a newspaper.
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Old 04-06-2010, 03:34 AM
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What's a girl to do? When big media like ABC has a track record of phonying up their reports. CNN and FOX hype and use thinly disguised commercials as "reporting". I guess it comes down to your own follow-ups and diligence to know what stories are credible and which aren't. I think in the particular instance this applies to, that the person was doing a perfectly acceptable job of reporting the facts as they are being disseminated.
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Old 04-06-2010, 06:10 AM
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I hope you won't hold that against publications as most so-called mainstream newspapers have an online edition. Just because a "paper" is on newsprint does not give their articles more credence. What is wrong with an on-line newspaper? It's the wave of the future.
The Examiner is not an online newpaper. It's one of a wave of new paid blog sites. People sign up to blog, and they get paid by the click, and typically get bonuses for certain numbers of clicks.

If you read the analyses of these paid blog sites, you'll see that they're known for being fraught with inaccuracies, and seeded with numerous keywords (the more keywords, the more search hits, the more clicks, the more payments). Indeed, some of these sites overall, and some of the bloggers on these sites, use a sensationalistic, tabloidesque style in which accuracy in reporting is far less of a consideration than grabbing attention to get people to click through.

These paid blog sites simply do not have the same journalistic standards that traditional mainstream media news sites have.

Google had been including them in their News search (which was driving me crazy!), and just recently I noticed that they're dropping them out of the News search one by one.

Myself and some of the other mods have been cautioning our members about relying on these sites as source references. Some mods disallow linking to blogs in some of our forums. Members and guests rely on WS as a source of reliable information, and in general, because blogs are not held to the same journalistic standards as MSM media news sites, they are not sources of reliable information.

As with anything else, some of the sites overall are not as bad as others so far as inaccuracies; some of the bloggers are not as bad as other so far as inaccuracies.

It's a matter of 'buyer beware' so to speak. Read them and consider them as you would any other blog, with the added caution that these particular blogs are heavily geared toward getting you to click through to them. In general, we don't use blogs as credible source reference links at WS - we use MSM, court documents, etc.

ETA: Now let's all please get back on topic - this case.

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Old 04-06-2010, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Calliope View Post
http://ww.examiner.com/x-34328-Seatt...-still-missing

It was also brought up on the other thread by some who felt these items weren't found together, but rather here and there as the person walked along the beach. The Deputy indicates they WERE found together:



He's been involved in the investigation. If he says they were found in the same location, they were.
He's been involved in the investigation, and he says there's no evidence of a crime too.

When should LE in this case to be considered incompetent and their statements discarded, and when should they be considered competent and their statements accepted?
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Old 04-06-2010, 09:23 AM
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. . . I think the Van was supposed to have been washed away and been found later. . . .

I would like for investigators to try to recreate the time and tides. With a painted test dummy to his weight let the tide drift and see where it would have washed up. If it does not come up on Fox Island, then it can be determined after a couple tests that he was intentionally dumped from another location.
(Snipped by SMK)
This is very interesting, as I have wondered often about this last part. Now that Chamberlain mentions what he does about the items found, and their leaving the van, it more or less negates the falling asleep and being awakened by high tide theory. This case has so many twists and turns....
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Old 04-06-2010, 09:42 AM
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He's been involved in the investigation, and he says there's no evidence of a crime too.

When should LE in this case to be considered incompetent and their statements discarded, and when should they be considered competent and their statements accepted?
I don't think I've said there is evidence of a crime.

There's a difference between saying they have no evidence of a crime and LE ruling it out altogether. Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't heard him say that yet. At the very least, I'd hope they'd wait until the final results come back on Azriel's autopsy. Of course, finding Shantina would go a long way to putting this to rest.

Last edited by Calliope; 04-06-2010 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 04-06-2010, 09:55 AM
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I don't think I've said there is evidence of a crime.

There's a difference between saying they have no evidence of a crime and LE ruling it out altogether. Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't heard him say that yet. At the very least, I'd hope they'd wait until the final results come back on Azriel's autopsy. Of course, finding Shantina would go a long way to putting this to rest.
(Bold/Italics mine - SMK) Yes, who knows what new twist might emerge if SS herself were to be found. Even RS is envisioning her in a basement somewhere. It is hard to imagine , now, their being simply caught by high tide, in this new scenario in which Chamberlain has them out of the van, near the house that was pounded on at 1 am. ( I believe he placed the items with SS and AC some 50-60 yards below the house). To me, this tears through the sleeping/surprised theory. And places more suspicion re the backed up van.....And makes one wonder more, not less, how the poor child managed to drown, and what has become of his mother.....Where on earth is Shantina?
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