Walk a mile in Kaine's shoes...

[tfrohning]

Originally Posted by debs

In the interest of fair play and academic discussion, walk a mile in Terri's shoes. If she's innocent. Walk a mile in her shoes.

In fair play I have...What would I do if my husband feels I guilty of hurting or kidnapping his child? Hmmm
I just shut up and hire criminal lawyer not just any criminal lawyer but the best in OR.

I will not help find Kyron at all.... oh and also I will start sexting with some guy while Kyron is missing. That make Kaine Jealous

How am I going to get out this murder to hire to kill him? Hmmm

The truth is when I walk in Terri's shoes I feel so guilty and start wondering how heck is she is going to come out on top Oh! I know tell where Kyron is

I really did try to find a reason to find her a victim and I have not found one little bit of info yet to make me see her has a victim.

Just give me something to make me lean toward Terri innocent.
Just one thing

[ThoughtFox]

Bravo, stmarysmead! Thank you for this thread.

I think it's time to look at this in terms of logic and recognize that Terri's actions taken as a whole are not those of a loving wife and mother, or even a loyal wife and mother.

Terri knows where her son is, but Kaine does not know where Kyron is, so why do we judge him more harshly?

Terri was the last parent to see Kyron alive, and while people want to vilify Desiree and Kaine for not being there that day, the fact that Terri was there shows how much they trusted her as a parent. Yes, the responsibility may have been shoved off on her, but at the same time, she liked to put pictures of Kyron on her Facebook and talk about him to her friends as if she was a loving mother. But a real loving stepmother wouldn't resent him to the point of wanting him gone, and she wouldn't want to kill Kyron's father, for heaven's sake. So let's get real about this.

I think this a case about the betrayal of trust. I'm absolutely sure that Kaine was in total denial at the beginning and had to be convinced by the police that TH had sought to harm him with the MFH plot.

It takes years to build up trust, but only a few days to destroy it.

I had a sister-in-law who cheated with her boss for years. Her husband (my brother) found proof (a hotel receipt where she wasn't supposed to be, and gifts as well).

He "talked to his wife" - confronting her with the evidence - and she admitted being deceitful. She promised to break it off with her boss forever if my brother would never tell a soul what she did. My brother trusted her and they got back together. He promised he would never tell anyone in the family that she had cheated, and everyone thought they had a wonderful marriage.

After ten years, my brother began to think she was cheating again, but he had no one to confide in about his fears. My mother was ill and he didn't want to burden her.

The day after their youngest child turned twenty-one, his wife packed up all her stuff and left town with the boss-man, trashing the house and moving to another side of the state.

It turned out people in our family had heard rumors but gave her the benefit of the doubt. People had openly been told about her affair but chose not to believe it. Other people talked to her every day and thought they knew her but they were wrong. The divorce tore their family apart and the grown children don't talk to either parent very much anymore.

So yes, you can give people benefit of the doubt and choose to think the best, but that doesn't mean the rumors aren't true. It doesn't mean that someone isn't capable of lying and ruining a family.

And that heartbreaking thing happened to my brother's family without a murder, without a missing child - it was just an ordinary betrayal of adultery that happens every day. It happened long before text messages or even email, but it's easy to see how someone truly deceitful and selfish could use technology and networking to have affairs and ruin lives, or even plan a kidnapping or a murder.

[grayjay]

Wow. The MFH thing? I thought it was Terri who handled it so poorly and made it public fodder, by her actions. None of that should splash back on him, IMO.

[believe09]

Originally Posted by debs

In the interest of fair play and academic discussion, walk a mile in Terri's shoes. If she's innocent. Walk a mile in her shoes.

Respectfully it is not the subject of the thread. We are separating Kaine out, and we have a chance to speak about him as Kyron's father, and as a victim of the kidnapping of his son as well as the alleged victim of a MFH plot.

I wouldnt walk a mile in Kaine's shoes ever. I think he has done the best he could given the hand he has been dealt, and I will continue to lurk and see if the efforts of all who want to find Kyron actually locate him.

[ThoughtFox]

Originally Posted by grayjay

Wow. The MFH thing? I thought it was Terri who handled it so poorly and made it public fodder, by her actions. None of that should splash back on him, IMO.

And Kaine cannot be blamed for what adult Terri chose to do with other men or gardners or whomsoever.

No one plans their own murder for hire!

And no matter how bad a husband people think Kaine was, his life is protected by the law and he has a right to protect his children.

[STEADFAST]

I think Kaine believed in Terri's innocence in Kyron's disappearance because he loved her, despite some hinky happenings, like her failing polygraphs, not clearing up her timeline and who knows what else. I think when LE showed him their evidence of the MFH plot, the scales fell from his eyes, the light dawned and it all came together for him.

If I were him, I wouldn't be able to get myself and my daughter away fast enough once I saw her in that light. I would not want to engage her in conversation, since I would believe that she is full of lies.

[human]

1. Whatever LE told him sealed the deal. He may have been having doubts, but arguing with himself in his head. The argument was over when he heard and saw what LE had

2. If he remained married to her, guess who gets to pay the $350,000 and would be liable for it? I would say, no thanks.

[TxLady2]

Better yet, walk a mile in Desiree's shoes, if your'e a mother and have ever had a child to go missing... for even a few minutes. It is a horrible, scary feeling.
These parents are going through an unimaginable horror right now, not knowing where Kyron is and what he's going through... of if he's even alive. They try to hang on to hope that he is... but the dread and the fear are taking over their emotions and they know it's a possibility that he is lost to them forever.
I may not agree with everything Kaine has done, or how he's handled things... but I can still feel sorry for what he's experiencing. Same with Desiree... maybe more so because I'm a mother. You don't know what you would do or how you would react until you face it. And once you do....... you might surprise yourself.

[sorrell skye]

Originally Posted by stmarysmead

I certainly agree with your first paragraph.

But in regard to the second part, I think I would not criticize Kaine on this point until I knew exactly what LE told them and what supporting evidence, if any, they showed him.

If I saw emails or texts coming from my spouse's email or cellphone and information therein was so specific to our family life, there might be little else to say...and frankly, I might be so totally freaked out...I would just need to leave immediately.

In other words,something like..."Next Friday, Kaine has an appt. at the Eye Doctor's on 12th St. at 3PM...he usually drives on 75th St to get there. We once had a flat tire in that area and it's pretty deserted. Maybe you could sideswipe the car and kill him when he gets out."

I wouldn't feel there would be any thing Terri could tell me if they showed me anything like that. Or texts of my spouse in sexual poses...with accompanying verbage alluding to my death.

Wouldn't be much to talk about then. Nor, walking in Kaine's shoes, absorbing such fear and betrayal...would I expect him to do so...at such a horrific time in his life.

BBM

Thank you starting this thread. I always find it helpful to put myself in someone else's shoes - that's what empathy is all about, after all.

I think that if the above bolded part had occurred, there would be documentary evidence related to the alleged MFHP, and TH would have been arrested for conspiracy to commit murder.

IMO, LE only had the claim of the LS (the claim of someone who apparently didn't take the alleged MFHP seriously enough to contact LE about it 6-7 months prior to June, but only revealed it after LE had contacted him, which leads me to wonder why - was it not a well-founded claim, or is the alleged MFHP *witness* not an entirely believable witness?). IDK. And then we have the statement by LE saying that the alleged MFHP did not go beyond the "verbal" stage, which I took to mean that no money had been exchanged, and/or that the LS told LE that he & TH had only *talked* (i.e. speculated, fantasized, etc.) about a so-called MFHP against KH.

I have no doubt KH was stunned when LE informed him of the alleged MFHP. I admit - I would be if I was in a similar circumstance. I think I would also want some answers - some proof, before believing & acting on such an allegation against the person I had been in a relationship with for the past 6 years.

What I wonder is: did he go to TH & ask her to explain the LS's bizarre claims? If not, why? Was he truly as blind-sided as he says he was? If so, I can't help but ponder his overall judgment & skills of perception regarding the woman he had lived with since 2004 (and subsequently married in 2007).

If his judgment & perception were so off in the preceding 6 years, perhaps, given the emotional enormity of the current situation, it's possible that his judgment & perception are not wholly accurate at present, as well?

I have no doubt KH feels as if the entire universe has been turned upside down - not to mention how Kyron must feel, if he's still alive (I hope, I hope).

However, if I'm going to walk inside KH's shoes, it would help if I knew a bit more about the person whose shoes I'm being asked to wear.

I think I know a lot about TH - albeit from KH's perspective. I know next to nothing about KH, except that his beautiful little boy is missing - and that alone breaks my heart.

[ThoughtFox]

Originally Posted by BeanE

BBM



I certainly don't see anyone on Websleuths "despising" Kaine or "demonizing" Kaine or Desiree.

Yet, you when you referred to "posters", SMM, I thought you were referring to posters here on Websleuths. Are you talking about WS posters? Or posters elsewhere?

Can you clarify please?

Thanks.

I think there have been a great many threads that have descended into Kaine or Desiree-bashing, even if that wasn't the original intent of the thread. Many posts have been removed by the Mods before some of us saw what was written, but they put warnings on those threads for a reason.

ETA: The Mods have been warning people that Kaine and Desiree are victims too since they have lost their child. I think it is sad that it has to be explained to someone, but apparently it does.

If we can have a thread about being on the fence and not deciding anything one way or another, then why not a pro-Kaine thread for a change?

[Curious Me]

Let me try to walk a mile in Kaine's shoes.

Things seemed like they were going pretty good in the marriage then out of the blue Terri's whole mask fell off at the exact moment I was frantically trying to find our son. I'm Kaine, I feel awful for not seeing all this stuff other people are telling me I should've noticed how dangerous Terri was. To think, Terri was nuzzling up to me at that first presser, and now I find out she may have took Kyron. Wanted me dead! How can I not believe those sexting pics? But she loved Kyron, didn't she? This is torture no matter how our marriage was falling apart. My God, why won't she tell us the truth!

This man needs some slack. His shoes are crushing my feet.

[rnmif]

Originally Posted by stmarysmead

But do we need to despise Kaine in order to have an open mind about Terri's innocence?

Perhaps she is not responsible for Kyron's disappearance. Yet, at the same time, whatever Kaine was shown by LE...made his actions responsible and understandable in regard to removing himself and Baby K from the situation.

I just don't think the way to defend Terri is through demonizing Kaine or Desiree.

I am the first to admit I have not been here to read much. I'm a week later leaving than I'd hoped to be, my knee is being a PITA, and I'm just trying to slam things in boxes and get out of dodge ASAP.

But I.... haven't read anything that came across to me as demonizing KH. Questioning some of his actions, yes. I have to admit, there are some things about him that give me pause. Unfortunately that's about as far as I can take it.

I don't know that TMH should be defended at this point, I don't know that KH's actions were responsible, because I don't know what KH heard or saw, when he was informed, we only have his words that he had to leave the house in 15 minutes after a phone call. There isn't a damn thing LE could say to me over the phone that would have me packing up and leaving 15 minutes after talking to them. I have a good marriage with normal ups and downs, but I know my husband. I look at life and relationships as having boundaries, he might have outlier behaviors, but 99% of his behavior falls into a specific realm. Because we are involved, committed, loving, and honest, even though we may not know everything about each other, I might believe him guilty of some things, others there is just no way.

We are both somewhat introverted, more quality than quantity in the friends department. I don't have anyone in my inner circle that I couldn't vouch for, and make a very compelling case for.

I find it interesting that I always took KH to be the same.... Yet, apparently that is not so.

[rnmif]

Originally Posted by stmarysmead

I have a friend whose daughter (with 4 children no less) has just been told by her husband that he has been involved with someone else for 7 years and wants a divorce to marry this woman. The whole family is thunderstruck.

Until he made his decision, had his financial "ducks in a row"...he played his part very well.

Scott Peterson was defended by the Rochas, wasn't he? The perfect son-in-law.

Jeffrey MacDonald's in-laws stood behind him as well, until presented with compelling evidence that he killed their daughter and grandchildren.

There are many ways a trusting person can deceive himself or herself.

And, for all we know...Kaine DID hear or read the conversations between Terri and the LS. That might be the very reason he felt no further conversation could change anything.

I'm less impressed by the relationships to further removed family members. This is a relationship between husband and wife.

I've been victimized more than once in my life. In each case there were red flags. A friend of mine had a similar situation as your friend. Interestingly his infidelity, or the potential for such, was a constant discussion on her part, a "what if". She told me once if her husband was being unfaithful, and her friend told her, she'd ditch the friend and keep her husband.

This was all her sub/unconscious way of dealing with the fact that her husband was at that time having an affair, something she couldn't consciously ignore.

She's now with a great guy. Her discussions about her relationship and marriage in general are dramatically different. She also knows he can be trusted the same way she knows her ex couldn't.

[LillyRush]

This is sort of in line with what others have said about why or why not did Kaine speak to Terri about the alleged MFH plot before leaving, etc. I'm wondering why the police didn't think of wiring Kaine up with a microphone and having him ask Terri about the MFH? I suppose they might have been concerned about safety if they actually thought she was that dangerous, but they could have placed police right outside the house listening to the live conversation and ready to go in if necessary. It just seems like they would have gotten more out of eavesdropping on a conversation between Kaine and Terri, whether she admitted to the MFH or not, rather than the landscaper and undercover cop who she could easily brush off as not even knowing who they are and then call 911 (which is exactly what she did).

[Jolynna]

Originally Posted by debs

In the interest of fair play and academic discussion, walk a mile in Terri's shoes. If she's innocent. Walk a mile in her shoes.

Fairness to Terri doesn't superede Kaine's responsibility to keep his daughter safe, imo. .

Too many parents don't heed warning signs about their significant other and kids play the price.

When you hear from the police that your significant other has been plotting to kill you and the police also say that your significant other isn't being honest about your other child's disappearance the time for discussion is over. Baby's K.'s right to a safe home trumps all other considerations.

[passionflower]

imo, i HOPE NO ONE EVER HAS TO WALK IN kAINE'S SHOES!
Just the thoughts of your child missing is enought to go insane over.
Then discovering your wife wants you dead, your marriage is over.
Police and media at your house.
Telling your X wife that your present wife (the woman who broke up HER marriage)
is probably the one responsible for HER son missing..........
Realizing the wife that wants you dead is sexting and having a double life....
Raising a baby girl alone in this mix, '
wondering WHY???? WHY???
Friends telling embarrassing things that happened while you are married to this broad.............missing booze when you left their homes............etc
Nope, I hope he has the strength to deal with it all.

[stmarysmead]

To be clear, I was not referring to WS posters "demonizing" Kaine...I admire so much the standards on this site...but certainly I have read a good deal of this elsewhere. But there is general criticism in many places of Kaine's actions that is puzzling IMO when trying to actually devise any alternative things for him to have done.

IMO,we can't separate Kaine's actions after the MFH revelation from LE...from the fact that he was , at that moment, a father of a missing child and the father of a toddler.

If he felt in any way, that he could no longer trust Terri to be the woman he thought she was, the woman he had been protecting...how could he leave her with Baby K with his other child missing? It's asking a lot to think he could just allow himself to be talked out of believing a Murder plot when essentially already enduring the pain of a missing child.

To try to see Kaine's situation does not mean anyone has to believe Terri quilty of anything. It's just a matter of acknowledging the horrendous circumstances already present when...suddenly, LE tells him his WIFE may have tried to kill him.

Maybe, some of us ALONE might choose to take a chance and stay with a spouse that police said had planned to have us killed...but leave our Baby with that spouse...as our other child is missing? I cannot imagine it.

[mmmagique]

imopo, there have been some posts (even here on WS) that do seem to "villify" or to overly question very innocent (seeming to me) things that Kaine and/or Desiree do or say.

I think this has been a very interesting thread, but at the same time, it's probably just preaching to the choir.

Although you never know what one thing will effect someone else's thinking. I've been totally one way about other issues before, and hearing and/or realizing something can totally change my thinking around. We are creatures of habit, but I suspect many of us here can be persuaded to think differently about many things given the proper information. (because most if not all of us here, are more interested in the truth than what we believe is the truth.)

[Calliope]

Originally Posted by stmarysmead

To be clear, I was not referring to WS posters "demonizing" Kaine...I admire so much the standards on this site...but certainly I have read a good deal of this elsewhere. But there is general criticism in many places of Kaine's actions that is puzzling IMO when trying to actually devise any alternative things for him to have done.

IMO,we can't separate Kaine's actions after the MFH revelation from LE...from the fact that he was , at that moment, a father of a missing child and the father of a toddler.

If he felt in any way, that he could no longer trust Terri to be the woman he thought she was, the woman he had been protecting...how could he leave her with Baby K with his other child missing? It's asking a lot to think he could just allow himself to be talked out of believing a Murder plot when essentially already enduring the pain of a missing child.

To try to see Kaine's situation does not mean anyone has to believe Terri quilty of anything. It's just a matter of acknowledging the horrendous circumstances already present when...suddenly, LE tells him his WIFE may have tried to kill him.

Maybe, some of us ALONE might choose to take a chance and stay with a spouse that police said had planned to have us killed...but leave our Baby with that spouse...as our other child is missing? I cannot imagine it.

I appreciate what you're saying, and with all due respect, I don't understand how we here can answer for what others say elsewhere. I've read some pretty horrific stuff spewed about all the people involved in this case.

[Kimster]

PLEASE if we are going to complain about what people are saying about this case, be SPECIFIC in letting others know we don't mean our own members. It causes confusion and alerts and makes life difficult for moderators. We don't want grumpy moderators.

[eyes4crime]

I would never want to walk in Kaine's shoes. Ever! The horrific experience of losing your child would be enough to put me under the covers for years. I can't imagine!

Regarding the MFH - According to LE, the MFH plot never got beyond words...that makes it hearsay. Hearsay can be a comment out of context such as a joke, a big wish, or just a plain lie by the gardener. I think people are using it to enhance their theory, I'm not because I don't see Terri as a psychopathic murderer.

LE have a duty to warn - I think the marriage was just about over so he did what felt right - he took baby girl and ran. moo

Regarding bashing Kaine and Desiree - I feel they were given an inordinate amount of air time to reach judgmental America. No other case that I've followed even comes close.

I don't think they've used the air time given to them wisely! I honestly don't!!! I learned nothing about how to bring Kyron home, nothing about Kyron, and a great deal of insignificant stuff about Terri. Who cares how fast she lost weight for a weightlifting contest? Who cares if she used OTC meds? In the scheme of things, this kind of gossip, innuendo does nothing to bring Kyron home.

If people think that's bashing, so be it! I think it's constructive criticism and wonder why it would be construed any other way. Yes, Kaine and Desiree are victims, but that doesn't mean I have to nod my head in unisyn over everything they do. I want justice for Kyron! moo

As a matter of fact, I think we here at WS have been terrific regarding Kaine and Desiree - the mods have been outstanding in not allowing gossip, rumors, and hate. That's why I'm here. moo

All just my opinions and that stuff!

[craftybatchy]

With all due respect to the OP, and clearly this is MOO...... the only shoes I am terribly concerned about at this moment are those belonging to a child - two children, in fact - Kyron and BabyK.

Until this situation runs its course and due process is realized on behalf of ALL parties, only then can we be certain of who truly is a victim.

[gardeness]

IMO, if Kaine is a data-driven guy, he should have asked for and received data before leaving and filing for divorce. And, I doubt that he received any data, because if data exists about the MFH, Terri would have been arrested immediately, with no MFH "sting" attempt.

While I think that it's strange that Kaine left without talking to his wife, I will give him a little benefit of the doubt--I think that LE encouraged (and rushed) his leaving so that they could attempt the sting. moo

[human]

I think if people knew others as well as they thought that they did, the divorce rate in the US wouldn't be as high as it is. That includes knowing one's own self.

[human]

Originally Posted by gardeness

IMO, if Kaine is a data-driven guy, he should have asked for and received data before leaving and filing for divorce. And, I doubt that he received any data, because if data exists about the MFH, Terri would have been arrested immediately, with no MFH "sting" attempt.

While I think that it's strange that Kaine left without talking to his wife, I will give him a little benefit of the doubt--I think that LE encouraged (and rushed) his leaving so that they could attempt the sting. moo

I don't think anyone can be arrested on someone's say so, can they? Otherwise, people could say all kinds of things.