If you were in charge of Kyron's investigation... - Page 2

Kat010 · #26 09-10-2010, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pufnstuf

You would have to think Multnomah Co. Sheriff's Office to be extraordinarily inept to even begin to respond to this question--you would have to assume that you, a civilian with no LE training, know more about criminal investigations than seasoned LE veterans who are running this investigation.

I have no criticism for MCSO, because I don't know how thoroughly they have investigated this case. I'm not prepared to assume the worst about them. I'm sad that some people do.

MOO.

Again, I have to respectfully disagree. This is *not* a criticism.

This is a thinking exercise. You can imagine that you're you, or that you're The Closer.

Leads in investigations, managers, etc. get replaced all the time. New people are brought in to provide fresh ideas.

This is standard management stuff, including LE. There are many times when teams are shuffled around, leaders changed.

My post in no way "assumes the worst" of anyone at all. Again, it's just standard management thinking and questioning.

Meanwhile, after more than three months, where's Kyron? And who did what? And how?

Are there new ideas, different techniques, reappraisals, that could help answer those questions? If so, should we turn away from them?

And there have been some really good ideas in this thread, thanks, ya'll!

rnmif · #27 09-10-2010, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeanE

I would take advantage of my position of power to flirt outrageously with Jason Gates.

He's such a cutie.

Oh, BeanE, leading me astray isn't hard to do.... LOL!

If I weren't happily married, and I didn't assume that he must not be single, because how on earth could he be single! I'd so be right there with you.

I like a strong man with a tender side. And he's smart as a whip. Holy cow, he's bright. And he has an amazing attitude.

Very cool guy.

Okay, I'll stop being a bad girl now...

Kat010 · #28 09-10-2010, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyes4crime

I don't respond well to guilt trips so I'm going to put my heartfelt thoughts down. moo

Rod Underhill heads up family court, misdemeanor court, and DV, he heads up Kyron's investigation. On the local thread I was told that this case is being looked at as a domestic violence issue - meaning within family.

ETA: He is in three divisions: (link is in local questions thread)
1. Family violence
2. Family justice
3. Misdemeanor court

The very first thing I would do is put a DA in charge who has broader experience in criminal investigations such as kidnapping, pedophilia, child murders. Considering that a 7yo child is missing from his school, it seems negligent to put a DV Deputy DA (Rod Underhill) in charge of the criminal investigation. Granted Underhill has over 1400 DV prosecutions, but is this really the scope of what happened to Kyron?

The one and only assumption that can be made for missing Kyron is that all possibilities have been ruled out except family violence.

IMO no wonder this investigation has made NO sense!

On the other hand, the quick like lightening RO and custody issues now make sense. Rod Underhill must know the inside and outs of the family court - makes it nice for Kaine. But what about poor Kyron - I want justice for Kyron. moo mho and all that stuff

Wow. Standing ovation from over here.

Very good points. I agree--they need someone skilled with that level of criminal investigation.

Kat010 · #29 09-10-2010, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rnmif

Oh, BeanE, leading me astray isn't hard to do.... LOL!

If I weren't happily married, and I didn't assume that he must not be single, because how on earth could he be single! I'd so be right there with you.

I like a strong man with a tender side. And he's smart as a whip. Holy cow, he's bright. And he has an amazing attitude.

Very cool guy.

Okay, I'll stop being a bad girl now...

Stop trying to entice Jason into the "records rooom"!

He's with me now.....#1 on my staff.

So go photocopy something or answer the tip line or do something! tee hee!

rnmif · #30 09-10-2010, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cluciano63

I have to admit, I miss seeing him...I only hook up to watch the PC's if he is doing them, otherwise I just read along here...

But then I have kind of a girl-crush on Desiree too...she is so beautiful.

Oh, bless you! I do too, but heck if I was brave enough to admit it in public.

It's not just that she's beautiful, and she is, beyond just girl next door beautiful, but she has such grace, strength, and she is the one person in this whole thing that manages to always smell like a rose. I don't think she has a mean spirited bone in her body.

She's been through a lot in her life, and seems to put everyone's needs before her own. Which is not always healthy, but I admire the selfless spirit... I think they are a dying breed.

I hope she is learning that it's not just permissible, but important to take care of herself. I think she's a very special woman, and why certain people ever....

Nevermind. I'll just get in trouble if I go there, but frankly, I don't understand anyone ever thinking they needed more than her. What more do you want? Gold plating? I mean really.... She's a pretty special person.

BetteDavisEyes · #31 09-10-2010, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pufnstuf

I think this is where LE walks a fine line between enticing witnesses to cooperate vs. them lawyering up and clamming up when painted into a corner.

Most people, in my opinion, would not allow themselves to be interviewed by forensic psychologists. I know I wouldn't, and I certainly wouldn't allow a forensic psychologist access to my child if he attended Skyline. I doubt you'd get much community cooperation for people to volunteer themselves or their children to be put under a psychological microscope. MOO.

I understand what you're saying, and perhaps I should have been more precise about what I meant in my post. There are already many videos, interviews, press conferences, etc. with persons who are involved in the case. A team of forensic psychiatrists/psychologists would be able to view these taped interviews and render opinions. Likewise, many people (Skyline staff/teachers, parents, students) provided written statements to LE that can be analyzed by linguistics specialists. There would be no need for anyone to submit to additional interviews. I believe that a lot of pertinent information could be gleaned from psychological analyses of what has been said by whom with regard to Kyron's disappearance. jmo

rnmif · #32 09-10-2010, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pufnstuf

You would have to think Multnomah Co. Sheriff's Office to be extraordinarily inept to even begin to respond to this question--you would have to assume that you, a civilian with no LE training, know more about criminal investigations than seasoned LE veterans who are running this investigation.

I have no criticism for MCSO, because I don't know how thoroughly they have investigated this case. I'm not prepared to assume the worst about them. I'm sad that some people do.

MOO.

Not inept. Just human.

Kat010 · #33 09-10-2010, 07:09 PM

I just thought of a better way to say something, rather than "thinking exercise."

In some post, Tricia made a wonderful statement. I don't have the link to hand, but in essence she said that she told LE, when they asked what we do here on WS, was ...imagine a roomful of people and we spitball ideas around.

Isn't that great?

So, spitball some ideas. That's all. No inferences made, nor meant, about criticisms of LE or anyone.

If we decide, IMHO, that to question, to offer different ideas, to re-think, is a criticism, then we've effectively decided to accept whatever comes down the chute in whatever form from whoever is "up there". I have, ahem, a more "active" idea of what being a good citizen means. JMO, of course.

cluciano63 · #34 09-10-2010, 07:11 PM

Wanting or wishing for a new set of investigators is not deeming the currents ones to be inept, but it is all too possible that they are sold on their version of this crime and if they see nothing to dispute it, they will just stick with that, rather than seek out new avenues. Often, LE prefers to wait for evidence to match their theory and often, they are right, but there are those times when they are not...and this is not to say that they aren't looking over everything-there could be new people working on it, it's not as though they tell the public anything.
(The public does not need to know everything, granted...but they do need to maintain confidence in their LE and in this country, anyway, citizens tend to dislike anything that seems to be secretive. So it is human nature to want to hear from them, from time to time.)

PS- was thinking today that just from being here on WS, it amazes me that any 12 people on a jury can ever agree on anything...

eyes4crime · #35 09-10-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pufnstuf

I think this is where LE walks a fine line between enticing witnesses to cooperate vs. them lawyering up and clamming up when painted into a corner.

LE had a tough job with Terri. They needed to get info from her, but they needed to do it without her lawyering up and invoking the fifth. Fine line to walk.

Most people, in my opinion, would not allow themselves to be interviewed by forensic psychologists. I know I wouldn't, and I certainly wouldn't allow a forensic psychologist access to my child if he attended Skyline. I doubt you'd get much community cooperation for people to volunteer themselves or their children to be put under a psychological microscope.

MOO.

BBM

I agree, but at least the forensic psychologists/psychiatrists are alive - unlike the polygraph machine that says, pass/fail/deception based on your sweat, heart rate and blood pressure, doesn't even have to know your name. It can determine your present and future reputation with a move of the pointer. What a machine!!! moo mho

BetteDavisEyes · #36 09-10-2010, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyes4crime

BBM

I agree, but at least the forensic psychologists/psychiatrists are alive - unlike the polygraph machine that says, pass/fail/deception based on your sweat, heart rate and blood pressure, doesn't even have to know your name. It can determine your present and future reputation with a move of the pointer. What a machine!!! moo mho

BBM. I would trust the educated minds of humans long before I'd trust a machine that presumes to know all about me. jmo

Mylou · #37 09-10-2010, 07:35 PM

What a great topic!!
In all honesty I hope and pray that their investigation is really leading them to the whereabouts of Kyron. I really hope they have tons of info we don't know about and that something is about to break quickly.
If they are no where near finding Kyron or making an arrest, then I would certainly try some new investigators, even a new profiler. Like someone else said, start from scratch. Place some people that are experts in the area of this kind of investigation, and that are removed emotionally from the case. Re-interview everyone beginning at the school, family, etc.... Someone at that school must know something I believe, that they have or haven't learnt yet. Maybe I am odd I don't know, but I live in a fairly small city and I always notice the people I know or are familiar with at different functions. I just can't see everyone being so self-centered at an event that they just wouldn't notice people they know. I could be wrong, maybe the majority of people really are that self-centered, only moving and doing what they need to and ignoring everyone around them. I kind of doubt it though, just thinking about events I have been too, you always see people greeting one another. I would imagine that parents greet their children's teachers if they know them at an event at the school, or know about subs etc.... even if they only know them by sight. I also think they need some experts to interview the children from that day. It just seems unfathonable that a child could vanish into thin air at school and no one see him. They just have to have info that we don't know about. I really wish they would shed some light to us the public about something they have to go on.....then maybe someone has the break they need to let the light in.
Some days I honestly wonder if Kyron was even really at school that day.
I read alot about TMH being odd, but honestly I have found everyone a bit odd in this disappearance.

GrainneDhu · #38 09-10-2010, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kat010

I just thought of a better way to say something, rather than "thinking exercise."

In some post, Tricia made a wonderful statement. I don't have the link to hand, but in essence she said that she told LE, when they asked what we do here on WS, was ...imagine a roomful of people and we spitball ideas around.

Isn't that great?

So, spitball some ideas. That's all. No inferences made, nor meant, about criticisms of LE or anyone.

If we decide, IMHO, that to question, to offer different ideas, to re-think, is a criticism, then we've effectively decided to accept whatever comes down the chute in whatever form from whoever is "up there". I have, ahem, a more "active" idea of what being a good citizen means. JMO, of course.

Here's my idea. Find a qualified, experienced investigator who is not involved in any way with the Kyron investigation. Fill this person in only on the facts absolutely known to be true (which would exclude stuff like the MFH, etc). I'm looking for someone who is as unbiased as possible.

Then give that person the tip file and ask them to prioritise the tips independently.

Then compare how the same tips were categorised previously. I'd expect a lot of overlap, particularly in the "leads nowhere" category, but where I think the interesting results would be is in tips that the independent investigator ranked higher probability than they got originally.

cypress · #39 09-10-2010, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nursebeeme

I completely agree. How can we know what we would do when we don't know what they know??????

BBM

Then how do so many people know Terri is guilty?

just · #40 09-10-2010, 07:37 PM

Because I believe strongly that Terri, possibly with help, abducted Kyron, I would use whatever legal means necessary to get information from her - (tricks, lying, misinformation, fear - I really wouldn't care). I would show her picture to the homeless in the area (both at on-ramps in our local area and downtown at shelters), to SOs, drug dealers, landscapers, illegal immigrants and anyone with a record who she could possibly have had contact with to see who she was talking to, when and what about (along the lines that she may have tried to, or did, enlist help like with the MFH).

I believe TH and Tonya Harding (hey, same initials!) have similar personalities and review her case and personality profile (who among us would believe that she convinced two (or more?) individuals to attack Nancy Kerrigan at her practice in broad daylight?)

My point being, Terri could very easily have convinced some dingalings to go along with her - especially someone on drugs, an SO all to happy to oblige, or someone with something to hide that she knows about. She seems to use sex as a weapon (at least with the MFH guy and Mike whoever), so I would explore that angle.

When all is said and done, I feel that the LE has far more information than they are revealing and depending on what they know, may or may not have any use for the above tactics because we have no idea what exactly they know.

Charlie09 · #41 09-10-2010, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kat010

If you were suddenly appointed to head up the investigation, what actions would you take? And why? What would you base those actions on?

(FYI, I've previously discussed this thread topic with Tricia and gotten an OK.)

With respect, I'd like to ask that we avoid answers like "I'd arrest TH/DS right now!" However, if you think that they are guilty, tell us what actions you would take, and what you'd base those actions on, to move things along so that an arrest is feasible.

Ditto for anyone else.

So, they're at a standstill. You've just taken over the investigation, knowing what you know right now.

What actions would you take? And why? What would you base those actions on?

I would continue to keep information to the vest, and try to find Kyron. Who cares what Terri is doing or not doing right now, she's effectively isolated and can't hurt her other children - she's not near Kaine, when she does go out, she's watched like a hawk. So she's been isolated - and let's face it, she is the suspect right now.

I would make sure that every i is dotted and every t crossed, so that when we decided to go forward, it would be an airtight case.

cluciano63 · #42 09-10-2010, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie09

I would continue to keep information to the vest, and try to find Kyron. Who cares what Terri is doing or not doing right now, she's effectively isolated and can't hurt her other children - she's not near Kaine, when she does go out, she's watched like a hawk. So she's been isolated - and let's face it, she is the suspect right now.

I would make sure that every i is dotted and every t crossed, so that when we decided to go forward, it would be an airtight case.

I doubt there will ever be anything close to an airtight case here...even if Kyron is found. It's bound to be mostly or totally circumstantial, without a confession, and those kinds of cases are never airtight. If he is not found-well, even less chance.

In my opinion.

Ms Suzanne · #43 09-10-2010, 08:48 PM

Well,very good question.If they are not getting anywhere just looking at Terri.Look somewhere else also.The dots really are not connecting.I would go back to the very very first leads and go over them again.I would look into Kaine and terri together.I would look into the LS(not with Terri.Just his part).But I feel mostly they need to look into the GK and this guy.

http://beavertonpolice.org/publicati...Updategpsa.pdf

Do something different.

Ms Suzanne · #44 09-10-2010, 09:21 PM

If I may please say another thing.Was it really a lead (an early lead?) saying someone saw Kyron with 2 girls? with someone that was a male chaperone?There was no male chaperone?Where were they seen?What did the guy look like?A older guy?a younger guy?

Amster · #45 09-10-2010, 09:22 PM

I wouldn't do anything different....I think they are looking in the right direction and it isn't Kaine. Or Desiree. Sorry.

kappy50 · #46 09-10-2010, 09:33 PM

arrest....day one!

cluciano63 · #47 09-10-2010, 09:38 PM

I would be wishing they had not stumbled across the landscaper and his story, so as to force LE to tell Kaine and thus force Terri to get an attorney. She had not shown signs of getting one before then. Now, for the past 2.5 months, they can't even talk to her. (I'm one who does not think Kaine was in any real danger from that.)

Charlie09 · #48 09-10-2010, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cluciano63

I doubt there will ever be anything close to an airtight case here...even if Kyron is found. It's bound to be mostly or totally circumstantial, without a confession, and those kinds of cases are never airtight. If he is not found-well, even less chance.

In my opinion.

We can certainly agree to disagree

cluciano63 · #49 09-10-2010, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie09

We can certainly agree to disagree

No problem there, but what do you think constitutes an airtight case? To me, it is usually forensic evidence (dna, fingerprints, etc.) motive/opportunity, and eye witnesses to support the rest of the case.

I just don't see how a case can be airtight without physical evidence or a confession; not to say it can't be prosecuted and won, but it is risky. Juries really seem to like to have something they can "see" to add to circumstances.

nursebeeme · #50 09-10-2010, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pufnstuf

You would have to think Multnomah Co. Sheriff's Office to be extraordinarily inept to even begin to respond to this question--you would have to assume that you, a civilian with no LE training, know more about criminal investigations than seasoned LE veterans who are running this investigation.

I have no criticism for MCSO, because I don't know how thoroughly they have investigated this case. I'm not prepared to assume the worst about them. I'm sad that some people do.

MOO.

ITA!!! And I do not begin to think they, or the DA is inept. We will know more when we are able to know more. MOO