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Kyron Horman Kyron went missing from his school in Oregon. His mother has a civil suit on his step-mother and his father is in the middle of a divorce. WHERE IS KYRON?


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  #26  
Old 09-17-2010, 11:53 AM
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I don't particularly care for Pat Brown. She seems to rubber stamp all potential suspects or POI the same. I find her very repetitious.

She may be an expert on serial killers but then most of the cases discussed on tv aren't about serial killers. I am not aware of any profile she did that helped the police discover who the serial killer was but maybe she has done so. I don't know anything about her actual work and only see her in the media as a talking head on crime shows.

And I have never seen her testify in the many trials I have watched.

IMO
I read Pat Brown's book and most of the cases she wrote about were not serial killers. I don't know if most of the cases she works on were serial killers or not, but they were not the majority of the ones she wrote about in her book.

I like Pat Brown, I think she makes a lot more sense than the psychobabbble psyschologists we see/hear so often in the media.
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Old 09-17-2010, 12:12 PM
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I read Pat Brown's book and most of the cases she wrote about were not serial killers. I don't know if most of the cases she works on were serial killers or not, but they were not the majority of the ones she wrote about in her book.

I like Pat Brown, I think she makes a lot more sense than the psychobabbble psyschologists we see/hear so often in the media.
I like her too. I'm very interested in psychology but sometimes people in that field use terminology I'm not familiar with. I know she is probably having to simplify things for me as a layperson, but it's better than not understanding what the heck she's talking about. LOL
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Old 09-17-2010, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes View Post
I don't particularly care for Pat Brown. She seems to rubber stamp all potential suspects or POI the same. I find her very repetitious.

She may be an expert on serial killers but then most of the cases discussed on tv aren't about serial killers. I am not aware of any profile she did that helped the police discover who the serial killer was but maybe she has done so. I don't know anything about her actual work and only see her in the media as a talking head on crime shows.

And I have never seen her testify in the many trials I have watched.

IMO
Criminal profilers tend to do that because of statistics. IMO, most, not all, but most perps could be rubberstamped. Look at all the murdering husbands we follow at WS. I swear most of them use the same how to list. Same with murdering parents who report their kid missing to cover up the murder. How many times do we see that one? IMO, the crime will usually fall in with the statistics. There is always the exception to the rule, but not often.....jmo.
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Old 09-17-2010, 12:21 PM
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Let's not bash people please. I have removed one post due to name calling.

It is okay to disagree with a public figure, it is not okay to bash them.

I've also gotten a couple of alerts about negative comments regarding Levi as he is one of our members. We do allow more leeway with opinions about Levi since he is a public figure. However, please remember that he is a member here and has always been very kind to our members. We can disagree with him, but we can't bash him either.
Sorry, I really didn't mean to bash but on re-reading my post it certainly came out that way. Like I said, this was the first time I've heard either of them and I am unfamiliar with their work. I was looking to elicit comments like the ones that followed. At the end of the day all of us, including people like Pat Brown and Bruce McCain, are putting out speculation about this case since we really know very few hard facts and it's helpful to know something about the knowledge and biases of the person speculating when considering the value of their opinions. Too many times you see talking heads (or even reporters) state opinions as fact and too many people then accept those statements as truth simply because of the source.
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Old 09-17-2010, 12:43 PM
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Sorry, I really didn't mean to bash but on re-reading my post it certainly came out that way. Like I said, this was the first time I've heard either of them and I am unfamiliar with their work. I was looking to elicit comments like the ones that followed. At the end of the day all of us, including people like Pat Brown and Bruce McCain, are putting out speculation about this case since we really know very few hard facts and it's helpful to know something about the knowledge and biases of the person speculating when considering the value of their opinions. Too many times you see talking heads (or even reporters) state opinions as fact and too many people then accept those statements as truth simply because of the source.
You didn't bash, no worries. It's okay to disagree. I'm glad you explain the reasons behind your opinions.
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Old 09-17-2010, 01:49 PM
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You made me laugh about Pat Brown. LOL Many posters don't like her, maybe because of that speculative nature she puts forth. I have a different take on her.

The valuable thing about what PB says is everything she has either learned, or studied about and then used when it comes to understanding how different predators work. Think of all the things she knows. She is an expert at Serial Killers. I think all that knowledge she has in profiling can be used to apply to predatory criminals in general. Why they choose the victims they do, what they are likely to do in certain situations and how varied these people really are depending on what motivates them to commit a crime. I always appreciate her insight as it comes from experience and much study on her part. IMO
What was it she said about twelve year old Kayleah? Something to the effect of she was too chubby to have been abducted or sexually assaulted. First of all, she wasn't too fat to have been abducted (what an utterly ridiculous assumption) --- she wasn't fat, period. And that was one of the most heartless, insensitive comments I've ever heard in a missing child case.

Ah Mrs. Mom, don't worry 'bout your little one. She's far too [fill in the blank] for anyone to want to do bad things to her.

I have no use for Ms. Brown.
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Old 09-17-2010, 02:06 PM
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What was it she said about twelve year old Kayleah? Something to the effect of she was too chubby to have been abducted or sexually assaulted. First of all, she wasn't too fat to have been abducted (what an utterly ridiculous assumption) --- she wasn't fat, period. And that was one of the most heartless, insensitive comments I've ever heard in a missing child case.

Ah Mrs. Mom, don't worry 'bout your little one. She's far too [fill in the blank] for anyone to want to do bad things to her.

I have no use for Ms. Brown.
That comment has to be one of Pat Brown's very worst mistakes. Not long after saying that, 12yo Kayleah's naked body was found in a nearby drain pipe after a heavy rain. There has yet to be a predator arrested. moo

When Pat is off, she is really off. What I like about Pat Brown is that she came out of nowhere, got a degree in criminal justice, made her career what it is, and is an inspiration to women everywhere. I may or may not listen to her but I will always say - good for her! hoo
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Old 09-17-2010, 02:10 PM
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Listening now. (won't be able to listen to entire show)

But I just had to interject.

I have a serious problem with her saying it's 'unfortunate in today's society' that the prosecution has to prove their case -- that they can't simply go into court and claim "we think" without proof of a crime.

Today's society? Unfortunate ??? Psst, Ms. Brown. That's how we do things here, and have for well over 200 years.

Oh Lord, now she's claiming that this is a "flat area".

I gotta turn this off. My BP is rising.
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Old 09-17-2010, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Levi View Post
I read Pat Brown's book and most of the cases she wrote about were not serial killers. I don't know if most of the cases she works on were serial killers or not, but they were not the majority of the ones she wrote about in her book.

I like Pat Brown, I think she makes a lot more sense than the psychobabbble psyschologists we see/hear so often in the media.
I respect your entitled opinion of Ms. Brown. I just do not share the same opinion after watching her for many years.

IMO
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Old 09-17-2010, 03:32 PM
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Criminal profilers tend to do that because of statistics. IMO, most, not all, but most perps could be rubberstamped. Look at all the murdering husbands we follow at WS. I swear most of them use the same how to list. Same with murdering parents who report their kid missing to cover up the murder. How many times do we see that one? IMO, the crime will usually fall in with the statistics. There is always the exception to the rule, but not often.....jmo.
That is not the problem I have with Pat Brown and I think motives and mindsets are different however with each case. I don't think all who murder are from the same cookie cutter design. If that were the case the experts could predict who will murder and who wont and they have yet to accomplish that feat.

My problem with Ms. Brown is she has a tendency to make someone guilty even before they are arrested or charge or called a suspect or POI and some of the ones she was so convinced were guilty of the crime.... never were.

This is just my personal observation after watching her for many years.

IMO
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:04 PM
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That is not the problem I have with Pat Brown and I think motives and mindsets are different however with each case. I don't think all who murder are from the same cookie cutter design. If that were the case the experts could predict who will murder and who wont and they have yet to accomplish that feat.

My problem with Ms. Brown is she has a tendency to make someone guilty even before they are arrested or charge or called a suspect or POI and some of the ones she was so convinced were guilty of the crime.... never were.

This is just my personal observation after watching her for many years.

IMO
BBM. I don't feel that way either and said in my post that most not all. I just wanted to respond to your rubberstamping comment. For the most part, a certain type of criminal is pretty predictable. I think some profilers forget the exceptions and get tunnel vision.
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:17 PM
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Pat says TH fits the profile of someone who could commit this crime against Kyron. She is narcisstic, she's moving on with her life as if he didn't matter, Kyron wasn't important to her. When a child goes missing and you know they are dead, it is annoying people keep looking and want everyone else to please move on. That's how they think.

THIS IS NOT A TRANSCRIPTION - THIS IS JUST ME HIGHLIGHTING WHAT WAS SAID ON THE SHOW. PLEASE LISTEN FOR YOURSELF TO GET THE ACTUAL DISCUSSION.
I bolded this part, I found this really interesting for me, it is not anything I have ever thought of before, I guess that is why they need profilers in certain cases. I find profiling really interesting, because you really do need to think like a criminal to understand what one may do. Having never been a criminal it does not naturally come to me to think that way.
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:19 PM
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BBM. I don't feel that way either and said in my post that most not all. I just wanted to respond to your rubberstamping comment. For the most part, a certain type of criminal is pretty predictable. I think some profilers forget the exceptions and get tunnel vision.

Not on Criminal Minds LOLOLOL Actually I have learned allot from that show and think it is very well written. I agree with your comment a certain type of criminal is pretty predictable. On that show they constantly troubleshoot their profile to refine it. I've always thought the writer must use the FBI as a resource for the script leading me to believe this is how it is done in the real world.

Just sayin', and yes there could be those profilers who get tunnel vision. That means they are not following the book in their job.
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:22 PM
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I remember reading a study about the high percentage of prisoners having psychopathic-narcissistic personalities. I found it fascinating, and when you think about it makes sense that many never feel remorse, lack of empathy for the victims of their crimes, never thought they would get caught and they thought they could fool everyone.
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by scandi View Post

The valuable thing about what PB says is everything she has either learned, or studied about and then used when it comes to understanding how different predators work. Think of all the things she knows. She is an expert at Serial Killers. I think all that knowledge she has in profiling can be used to apply to predatory criminals in general. Why they choose the victims they do, what they are likely to do in certain situations and how varied these people really are depending on what motivates them to commit a crime. I always appreciate her insight as it comes from experience and much study on her part. IMO
Thank you, Scandi. I had the opportunity to meet Pat Brown some years ago (pre-HLN) and she was as down-to-earth and "on the level" as you get.....not unlike the vast majority of LE/bureau personnel I know.
I got the distinct impression at the time, "Wow....this is a woman in the trenches." Anecdotal information, I know, but Pat was trying to grab a quick coffee break while balancing a stack of thick files, had circles under her eyes from sleep deprivation, wrinkled as all get out, but still sharp as a whip and completely focused on catching a perp. She even apologized to us for not having time to chat..........said she was trying to catch her "second wind" after she had passed the 32 hr. mark. IMO, she's done the work and she's been in the trenches. I respect her opinion.

JMO
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:39 PM
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Not on Criminal Minds LOLOLOL Actually I have learned allot from that show and think it is very well written. I agree with your comment a certain type of criminal is pretty predictable. On that show they constantly troubleshoot their profile to refine it. I've always thought the writer must use the FBI as a resource for the script leading me to believe this is how it is done in the real world.

Just sayin', and yes there could be those profilers who get tunnel vision. That means they are not following the book in their job.
I'm going to disagree with your view of Criminal Minds just a little - yes they often show "exceptions" in the behavior of the criminals to make it interesting because they are, after all, writing a fictional mystery show and they don't want to give anything away to the audience.

But in reality, from what I've seen here on Websleuths since 2003, many of these criminals are similar in several important ways, and that's why Profilers are helpful to the police and the FBI.

I think it comes through on Criminal Minds, too - the variations are usually just quirks of character and don't change the basic sociopathic/narcissist package.

I don't believe that people are "cookie-cutter" either, which is how they get away with things. But the main reason they get away with it is that the people in their lives try to see good in them and forgive them for lots of things that in other situations people wouldn't. Just like with Ted Bundy, people see what they want to see, and the perpetrator knows exactly how to use that human trait to his/her advantage.

JMOO
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:40 PM
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Thank you, Scandi. I had the opportunity to meet Pat Brown some years ago (pre-HLN) and she was as down-to-earth and "on the level" as you get.....not unlike the vast majority of LE/bureau personnel I know.
I got the distinct impression at the time, "Wow....this is a woman in the trenches." Anecdotal information, I know, but Pat was trying to grab a quick coffee break while balancing a stack of thick files, had circles under her eyes from sleep deprivation, wrinkled as all get out, but still sharp as a whip and completely focused on catching a perp. She even apologized to us for not having time to chat..........said she was trying to catch her "second wind" after she had passed the 32 hr. mark. IMO, she's done the work and she's been in the trenches. I respect her opinion.

JMO
You're welcome. You must lead an interesting life.

Over the years here at WS I have met posters who work in related fields of crime as we study. I'll never forget the gal who worked for CNN and was their media laison with families of high profile cases as they were developing. She would teach them how to do an interview, make sure they had proper clothing to wear for that, make sure their living conditions were comfortable and eating good food etc. as they were traumatized. What a dynamo she was and what an interesting life she led.

Then there was the gal who worked in a lime mine . . . . . . . Anyhoo it's nice to meet you.
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:52 PM
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I'm going to disagree with your view of Criminal Minds just a little - yes they often show "exceptions" in the behavior of the criminals to make it interesting because they are, after all, writing a fictional mystery show and they don't want to give anything away to the audience.

But in reality, from what I've seen here on Websleuths since 2003, many of these criminals are similar in several important ways, and that's why Profilers are helpful to the police and the FBI.

I think it comes through on Criminal Minds, too - the variations are usually just quirks of character and don't change the basic sociopathic/narcissist package.

I don't believe that people are "cookie-cutter" either, which is how they get away with things. But the main reason they get away with it is that the people in their lives try to see good in them and forgive them for lots of things that in other situations people wouldn't. Just like with Ted Bundy, people see what they want to see, and the perpetrator knows exactly how to use that human trait to his/her advantage.

JMOO
I really agree with you ThoughtFox. I think CM is a very well written show when you line it up with all the crime and CSI shows so I always throw it out there for that reason. That was an interesting comment you made about the other people in a criminal's life. It reminded me of how enablers react with alcoholics and how the alcoholic knows just how to use them to his/her advantage. xox
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:53 PM
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What was it she said about twelve year old Kayleah? Something to the effect of she was too chubby to have been abducted or sexually assaulted. First of all, she wasn't too fat to have been abducted (what an utterly ridiculous assumption) --- she wasn't fat, period. And that was one of the most heartless, insensitive comments I've ever heard in a missing child case.

Ah Mrs. Mom, don't worry 'bout your little one. She's far too [fill in the blank] for anyone to want to do bad things to her.

I have no use for Ms. Brown.

" Too chubby to have been abducted or sexually assaulted " ? Seriously ? Good God.....


All JMO
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Old 09-17-2010, 06:52 PM
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" Too chubby to have been abducted or sexually assaulted " ? Seriously ? Good God.....


All JMO
We were following Kayleah's case here on WS and when that comment was made we were all enraged. That comment has to be one of PB more serious blunders - let's hope she learned from it. hoo
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Old 09-17-2010, 08:25 PM
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We were following Kayleah's case here on WS and when that comment was made we were all enraged. That comment has to be one of PB more serious blunders - let's hope she learned from it. hoo
I agree, however I don't know what you mean about one of PB more serious blunders, but there could be others? One of the problems of these guest is they have 30 sec. of\r less to make a point and many times they can't elaborate on their point or they are interrupted. I watch HLN or listen to Levi, for the export guests, and I get frustrated when they are cut off in mid-sentenced that they can't finish to clarify their point. Actually Levi is pretty good perhaps because of the length of the topic time. It is unfair to everyone when the guest "expert" is cut off.
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Old 09-17-2010, 08:51 PM
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Pat says TH fits the profile of someone who could commit this crime against Kyron. She is narcisstic, she's moving on with her life as if he didn't matter, Kyron wasn't important to her. When a child goes missing and you know they are dead, it is annoying people keep looking and want everyone else to please move on. That's how they think.
This is why I cannot help but think that TH may very well be the one responsible for Kyron's disappearance.
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Old 09-17-2010, 09:02 PM
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"Pat says TH fits the profile of someone who could commit this crime against Kyron. She is narcisstic, she's moving on with her life as if he didn't matter, Kyron wasn't important to her."

I listened to the podcast, but didn't hear any supportive reasons for PB to say that TH has moved on with her life as if Kyron didn't matter. I personally don't see TH moving on--she's in limbo right now. If, however, PB's example is the sexting (and I don't know--it's the only example that I could think of), I would disagree that it proves that TH has "moved on" with her life. Even MC stated that some of the texts from Terri were concerns over Kyron's well-being (and baby K's well-being). Of course, those texts were not focused on at all by the media. moo
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Old 09-17-2010, 09:07 PM
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"Pat says TH fits the profile of someone who could commit this crime against Kyron. She is narcisstic, she's moving on with her life as if he didn't matter, Kyron wasn't important to her."

I listened to the podcast, but didn't hear any supportive reasons for PB to say that TH has moved on with her life as if Kyron didn't matter. I personally don't see TH moving on--she's in limbo right now. If, however, PB's example is the sexting (and I don't know--it's the only example that I could think of), I would disagree that it proves that TH has "moved on" with her life. Even MC stated that some of the texts from Terri were concerns over Kyron's well-being (and baby K's well-being). Of course, those texts were not focused on at all by the media. moo
I don't know that TH has been diagnosed as narcissistic has she? But if she has, and I asked this question, unfortunately on a thread that was totally removed, waaaay back when we were asking professionals questions about behavior, and it was one of the last questions before it was trashed, so if anyone knows this answer I'd love to hear it: Would not a narcissist have an extremely hard time being as quiet as she has?
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Old 09-17-2010, 09:12 PM
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I have tremendous respect for expert criminal profilers who take the time to follow a case, study the details of it, and make a deduction based on thorough, accurate information.

My issue with some of the things Ms. Brown states is that it oftentimes seems that she has just glanced @ a cheat sheet (without fact-checking) prior to whatever program she's appearing for, and bases her opinion on what I consider to be a "drive-by" profile.

It calls to mind a *tourist* who merely drives through the Redwoods, compared with those who park, get out of the car, and hike the steep trails beneath the canopy.

She may be more familiar with other cases, but I have to say - the times I've listened to her commentary on this case, IMO she has often seemed to be not as completely & accurately informed as she could have been.

ETA: Want to add that I enjoy listening to Levi's show. I just enjoy it more when others are on besides the venerable Ms. Brown.
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