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JonBenet Ramsey What really happened to 6 year old JonBenet? Someone is getting away with murder. All information posted on this site is gained through published documentation on this case. It is strictly opinion only.


View Poll Results: Did Patsy write the ransom note?
Yes, Patsy wrote the note 289 91.17%
No, Patsy did not write the note 28 8.83%
Voters: 317. You may not vote on this poll

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  #26  
Old 12-10-2010, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
Good. People should remember it.
I think that it's possible that there could be even MORE consistancies between Patsy's handwriting, and the RN authors...IF the same Sharpie pen had of been used. But now...we will never know. What a shame!!!
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Old 12-12-2010, 06:42 PM
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Following on from my post on friday...

Aside from the excellent letter by letter matches for PR, what other 'evidence' exists for the RN.

Did we get fingerprints?
Did we get any DNA?
It was on the floor (allegedly), so what floor materials were found on it?
What exactly was written on the practice notes (or the imprints of them)?

Re: the practice note, I see it began "Mr & Mrs" and yet the actual note is simply addressed to "Mr Ramsey". Ampersand is another awkward letter to write, do we have a comparison of that with PR?

Speculation time of course, but what would change the kidnapper's mind about including Mrs Ramsey in the note I wonder?

What of the rest of the notepad and pen? Same thing...DNA? Fingerprints?

Just wondering aloud...how were the pages torn? Neatly? How much noise is made when tearing those pages from the pad or screwing up a page from a practice effort?
Do ransomers edit? Do they say "Oh darn, I didn't want to include that person, I'll use another bit of paper" or would they simply scribble it out, like the part scribbled on the 3rd line or the second page?

When I read the note, I can't help thinking of that fantastic scene at the end of 'The Usual Suspects' when Agent Kujan turns and realises the entire story he just heard was garnished from everything posted on the wall behind him. I wonder what was on the walls in the kitchen or basement area of the Ramsey's house....
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Old 12-12-2010, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by joeskidbeck View Post
Regardless of who killed JonBenet. I firmly believe that Patsy wrote the note, nothing will ever change my mind on that. The writing is identical.
Absolutely, there can be dueling experts, but seeing is believing.
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Old 12-12-2010, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
Cynic, I have to ask: where did you get them?
Well, I am sharing with you all a bit of an early Christmas present which I received, Michelle Dresbold’s book, Sex, Lies and Handwriting (with Cina Wong’s analysis.)
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Old 12-12-2010, 08:16 PM
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Heck yeah, she wrote the RN. The letters are all written the same, Patsy and the rn "author" make their q's look like 8's...and if you look closely (Enlarge it and you can REALLY see)...they both put little "hooks" at the end of their letters that have a tail....for example Y.
No doubt in my mind.
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Old 12-12-2010, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Tadpole12 View Post
Letter by letter, the Ramseys' 1996 Christmas letter, can be jumbled and reconstituted into the SFF rn, quite nicely.

A cut and paste word jumble, would account for the odd terminology and sentence strusture within the rn.

The pratice 'titles', pages left within PR's pad, suggests, or was meant to suggest, that the pad contained PR's rough draft of her 1996 Christmas letter.
I recall Voynich suggesting this a number of months ago.
The primary argument against this is that not only do you have to be able to form the characters individually, you have to be able to piece them together as words and connect them as Patsy would, including spacing and other elements which handwriting analysts would be looking for.
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Old 12-12-2010, 08:24 PM
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Here is a portion of Patsy being questioned about the letters at a deposition.
(Wolf v Ramsey)
She doesn’t see the similarities, I wonder why?

Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, what I am showing you is a series of letters. I am not identifying their source. I am just simply showing you a series of letters. I would like you to look at them carefully. Again, this is Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 for identification. Can you, without knowing the source or where these letters are from, identify any of them?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, I would like you to also look at the letters and ask me if you see any similarities in the way in which these letters are written. And we will just start from the bottom. Looking at the B.

A. Ask you if I see any similarities?

Q. No. I am going to ask you to comment on whether you see any similarities in the handwriting.

MR. WOOD: Let me just ask you, Darnay, Patsy Ramsey is not a questioned document examiner.

MR. HOFFMAN: I just want her personal observation.



Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I am going to show you a document that has been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 for identification. And I would like you to look at the document. Please look at it carefully. What you -- this document, for the record, contains eight letters that are side by side vertically on the page. The letter D, what looks like the letter S, what looks like letters R and O, what looks like an N, what looks like an O, what looks like an exclamation point, what looks like a G, and what looks like a B. I am going to ask you, Mrs. Ramsey, if you can identify any of these letters as being your handwriting.

A. No, sir.



Q. If you have no further observations, we will move to the next letter, what looks like it could be an S.

A. Or it looks like it could be a 5.

Q. It could be a 5, too. Any similarities or dissimilarities between the two?

A. The one on the left is larger than the one on the right. The one on the right looks more like an S than the one on the left. The one on the left is more circular, kind of, on the bottom. The one on the right is -- the bottom portion looks more angular.

MR. WOOD: We have the same stip on this?

MR. HOFFMAN: Same stipulations.

Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Any other observations of either similarities or dissimilarities before I move on, Mrs. Ramsey?

A. No.



Q. I will ask you to look at the top and final one, what I would identify as a D, but that doesn't mean it is a D. I would like you to look at that and tell me what similarities or dissimilarities that you see there.

MR. HOFFMAN: And, Lin, of course, we have the same stip.

MR. WOOD: Thank you.

THE WITNESS: The left one looks like an A to me, and the right one looks like a D. It looks like maybe a shaky or older person might have written it. Kind of squiggly. This one has a higher -- the one on the right has a higher stick on the side than the one on the left.

Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Right.

A. And the open space, the doughnut hole is bigger on the one on the right than the left.

I don't think they look alike.

Q. Okay. Fair enough.

A. They look like two different letters to me.
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Old 12-12-2010, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by wonderllama View Post
Following on from my post on friday...

Aside from the excellent letter by letter matches for PR, what other 'evidence' exists for the RN.

Did we get fingerprints?
Did we get any DNA?
It was on the floor (allegedly), so what floor materials were found on it?
What exactly was written on the practice notes (or the imprints of them)?

Re: the practice note, I see it began "Mr & Mrs" and yet the actual note is simply addressed to "Mr Ramsey". Ampersand is another awkward letter to write, do we have a comparison of that with PR?

Speculation time of course, but what would change the kidnapper's mind about including Mrs Ramsey in the note I wonder?

What of the rest of the notepad and pen? Same thing...DNA? Fingerprints?

Just wondering aloud...how were the pages torn? Neatly? How much noise is made when tearing those pages from the pad or screwing up a page from a practice effort?
Do ransomers edit? Do they say "Oh darn, I didn't want to include that person, I'll use another bit of paper" or would they simply scribble it out, like the part scribbled on the 3rd line or the second page?

When I read the note, I can't help thinking of that fantastic scene at the end of 'The Usual Suspects' when Agent Kujan turns and realises the entire story he just heard was garnished from everything posted on the wall behind him. I wonder what was on the walls in the kitchen or basement area of the Ramsey's house....
There has been no information released with respect to DNA.
With regard to fingerprints:
Vargas: "Were John and Patsy Ramsey's fingerprint on the ransom note?"
Thomas: "No."
Vargas: "No?"
Thomas: "No."
Vargas: (VO) "But if they found the note and picked it up, Thomas asks why their fingerprints were not on it. Did they say whether or not they had picked it up to read it?"
Thomas: "I tried to pin Patsy Ramsey down at the time of our first interview with them. Did you grab the note? Did you pick up the note? Did you clutch it in your hand and read it and run upstairs with it? Who moved it to the hardwood floor? And I couldn't get an answer to that. She didn't recall."
Vargas: "Is it possible that the parents could have handled the note and not left their fingerprints? Or that the paper for some reason didn't retain that kind of print?"
Thomas: "Certainly. But then I think the argument can be made, then when the sergeant touched the same pad, he left a fingerprint on it. When the CBI examiner touched the same pad, he left a fingerprint on it. Patsy had left previous fingerprints on that pad, five that we identified. So that remains one of the mysteries in this case. How come there's no identifiable fingerprints on this thing if one or both parents handled and grasped it that morning?"
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-ransomnote.htm


The only print identified on that note belonged to the document examiner (Chet Ubowski).
...
Lab analysts did identify 7 latent fingerprints on the tablet from which the ransom note came. None of them belonged to an intruder. One belonged to Sergeant Whitson, who handled the tablet on the morning of December 26. A second belonged to CBI's Ubowski. The remaining five prints were Patricia Ramsey's.

JonBenet : Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation - Steve Thomas p223
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Old 12-12-2010, 08:39 PM
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Cynic, your point on the connecting of the letters in 'electronic' is a good one.

I immediately wrote the word on a piece of paper and connected different letters.
I guess it's yet another things showing writing styles.

The note alone is like the case as a whole, lots of little bits on their own mean nothing, but looked at together they tell a different story.
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Old 12-12-2010, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by wonderllama View Post
When I read the note, I can't help thinking of that fantastic scene at the end of 'The Usual Suspects' when Agent Kujan turns and realises the entire story he just heard was garnished from everything posted on the wall behind him. I wonder what was on the walls in the kitchen or basement area of the Ramsey's house....
MENE, MENE, TEKEL, PERES... The writing on the wall.....

The phrase the writing on the wall has come to signify a portent of doom—or the end of an organization or activity. To attribute to someone the ability to "read the writing on the wall" has come to signify the ability to foresee (not necessarily supernaturally) an inevitable decline and end.

The phrase "the handwriting is on the wall" is casually used to denote events that seem destined to occur. Yet the original use of that phrase, from the Bible, was anything but casual.
During the time of Daniel, the imminent fall of the great Babylonian empire was foretold when a floating human hand appeared at a party, writing an enigmatic message on the wall. The occasion was a celebratory banquet, and some of the circumstances and attitudes are remarkably similar to an event that just happened.
What offenses transpired at Belshazzar's banquet so long ago that incited the Lord to utter, in effect, "that's it, your party is over"?

Hmmmm what offenses transpired in the house on 15th st?
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:24 AM
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Thanks so much Cynic for posting this! See what I mean?!?! Yep, she definately wrote the note.
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by cynic View Post
Here is a portion of Patsy being questioned about the letters at a deposition.
(Wolf v Ramsey)
She doesn’t see the similarities, I wonder why?

Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, what I am showing you is a series of letters. I am not identifying their source. I am just simply showing you a series of letters. I would like you to look at them carefully. Again, this is Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 for identification. Can you, without knowing the source or where these letters are from, identify any of them?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, I would like you to also look at the letters and ask me if you see any similarities in the way in which these letters are written. And we will just start from the bottom. Looking at the B.

A. Ask you if I see any similarities?

Q. No. I am going to ask you to comment on whether you see any similarities in the handwriting.

MR. WOOD: Let me just ask you, Darnay, Patsy Ramsey is not a questioned document examiner.

MR. HOFFMAN: I just want her personal observation.



Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Mrs. Ramsey, I am going to show you a document that has been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 for identification. And I would like you to look at the document. Please look at it carefully. What you -- this document, for the record, contains eight letters that are side by side vertically on the page. The letter D, what looks like the letter S, what looks like letters R and O, what looks like an N, what looks like an O, what looks like an exclamation point, what looks like a G, and what looks like a B. I am going to ask you, Mrs. Ramsey, if you can identify any of these letters as being your handwriting.

A. No, sir.



Q. If you have no further observations, we will move to the next letter, what looks like it could be an S.

A. Or it looks like it could be a 5.

Q. It could be a 5, too. Any similarities or dissimilarities between the two?

A. The one on the left is larger than the one on the right. The one on the right looks more like an S than the one on the left. The one on the left is more circular, kind of, on the bottom. The one on the right is -- the bottom portion looks more angular.

MR. WOOD: We have the same stip on this?

MR. HOFFMAN: Same stipulations.

Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Any other observations of either similarities or dissimilarities before I move on, Mrs. Ramsey?

A. No.



Q. I will ask you to look at the top and final one, what I would identify as a D, but that doesn't mean it is a D. I would like you to look at that and tell me what similarities or dissimilarities that you see there.

MR. HOFFMAN: And, Lin, of course, we have the same stip.

MR. WOOD: Thank you.

THE WITNESS: The left one looks like an A to me, and the right one looks like a D. It looks like maybe a shaky or older person might have written it. Kind of squiggly. This one has a higher -- the one on the right has a higher stick on the side than the one on the left.

Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Right.

A. And the open space, the doughnut hole is bigger on the one on the right than the left.

I don't think they look alike.

Q. Okay. Fair enough.

A. They look like two different letters to me.
Uh huh...yes Patsy...of course they do.
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:36 AM
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Patsy knew exactly what they were showing her.

Interesting that it was noted (by one of BR's teachers, I believe) that Patsy ALWAYS handwrote the notes she sent in for JB and BR before the murder. But AFTER JB was killed, all her notes were typed. She was also said to have altered her handwriting after, differing even from her own KNOWN samples (like her Christmas newsletters).
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:38 AM
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Dee Dee, you are the bomb!
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
Patsy knew exactly what they were showing her.

Interesting that it was noted (by one of BR's teachers, I believe) that Patsy ALWAYS handwrote the notes she sent in for JB and BR before the murder. But AFTER JB was killed, all her notes were typed. She was also said to have altered her handwriting after, differing even from her own KNOWN samples (like her Christmas newsletters).
Any chance there are some of these available online?
I think some nice examples of before murder/after murder would go nicely in this thread.
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:43 PM
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Any chance there are some of these available online?
I think some nice examples of before murder/after murder would go nicely in this thread.
Not sure. LONG ago I saw a sample from one of the Christmas newsletters.
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Old 12-13-2010, 05:03 PM
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This is interesting:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...?t=6404&page=2
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
Patsy knew exactly what they were showing her.

Interesting that it was noted (by one of BR's teachers, I believe) that Patsy ALWAYS handwrote the notes she sent in for JB and BR before the murder. But AFTER JB was killed, all her notes were typed. She was also said to have altered her handwriting after, differing even from her own KNOWN samples (like her Christmas newsletters).
Right, and that little tid bit (typing the notes after the murder) came from Burke's teacher. (Alot of IDI's always ask who gave that info.) One of the letters that I can think of off the top of my head...is how she made her lower case A's....before the murder...(and in the RN)....it was a....after the murder it changed to the more common way that my computer will not let me type...without the "hoodie" at the top...just a line down the side.
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:20 PM
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Absolutely, there can be dueling experts, but seeing is believing.
Precisely. The jury would decide, not the experts.

Quote:
Well, I am sharing with you all a bit of an early Christmas present which I received, Michelle Dresbold’s book, Sex, Lies and Handwriting (with Cina Wong’s analysis.)
I thought so. I have it myself, from before they excised that material. (I can only imagine how you got it!)
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:22 PM
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The note alone is like the case as a whole, lots of little bits on their own mean nothing, but looked at together they tell a different story.
Finally! SOMEONE's got it!
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
Patsy knew exactly what they were showing her.

Interesting that it was noted (by one of BR's teachers, I believe) that Patsy ALWAYS handwrote the notes she sent in for JB and BR before the murder. But AFTER JB was killed, all her notes were typed. She was also said to have altered her handwriting after, differing even from her own KNOWN samples (like her Christmas newsletters).
You can't tell me that's a coincidence.
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:07 PM
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You can't tell me that's a coincidence.
Don't worry- I won't!
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
Patsy knew exactly what they were showing her.

Interesting that it was noted (by one of BR's teachers, I believe) that Patsy ALWAYS handwrote the notes she sent in for JB and BR before the murder. But AFTER JB was killed, all her notes were typed. She was also said to have altered her handwriting after, differing even from her own KNOWN samples (like her Christmas newsletters).
Yes. Detective Steve Thomas alluded to this in his famous 'debate' with the Ramseys on Larry King.

He said that apparently, Patsy changed her handwriting "post homicide".
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Old 12-14-2010, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
Patsy knew exactly what they were showing her.

Interesting that it was noted (by one of BR's teachers, I believe) that Patsy ALWAYS handwrote the notes she sent in for JB and BR before the murder. But AFTER JB was killed, all her notes were typed. She was also said to have altered her handwriting after, differing even from her own KNOWN samples (like her Christmas newsletters).
by bold

I think it would be more accurate to say ST alleged that she "altered her handwriting after, differing even from her own KNOWN samples (like her Christmas newsletters)." We only have his word for all of this.
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Old 12-14-2010, 11:40 PM
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by bold

I think it would be more accurate to say ST alleged that she "altered her handwriting after, differing even from her own KNOWN samples (like her Christmas newsletters)." We only have his word for all of this.
"During the interview, Thomas described how out of 73 suspects whose writing samples were analyzed by experts in comparison with the note, Patsy Ramsey was the only one who could not be excluded as its author. He also accused Patsy Ramsey of changing her handwriting after the murder. "In the ransom note, almost exclusively the lowercase manuscript a was used, I think, 98 percent of the time," he said. "What was telling was that after the Ramseys were given a copy of the ransom note, the lowercase manuscript a almost disappeared entirely from Patsy's post-homicide writing. Writing samples from Ramseys' personal letters and notes she wrote before the killing contain 732 manuscript a's that look like the lowercase typewritten a, but they are written by hand. She switched to a cursive a after the murder."

This is exactly what I said in one of my above posts. I had read about the a's before...but I didn't know that ST said this too.

I am quite positive that ST is not the only person that recognized that she changed her handwriting style. I have yet to hear anyone that studied those before and after writing samples...disagree with him. It's not like he was locked in some room by himself with those samples. Nay sayers also believed that Mark Furhman was making things up too. Steve Thomas is the Mark Furhman of the JB case. Just because you disagree with him, does not mean that he is making things up. Someone would have stepped forward a long time ago...and cleared that up...if the changing of the handwriting style was not true.
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