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JonBenet Ramsey What really happened to 6 year old JonBenet? Someone is getting away with murder. All information posted on this site is gained through published documentation on this case. It is strictly opinion only.


View Poll Results: Did Patsy lie about the Bloomingdale’s panties?
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  #351  
Old 07-13-2011, 10:11 PM
DeeDee249 DeeDee249 is offline
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Also, Patsy admitted to police in her interviews that she bought the large-size panties for her niece, who was several years older than JB. They weren't bought to treat JB's infections. A better way to have treated JB was to stop giving her bubble baths. How many doctor visits would it take for any mom here to stop the baths? JB had over 30 visits.
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  #352  
Old 07-15-2011, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
Also, Patsy admitted to police in her interviews that she bought the large-size panties for her niece, who was several years older than JB. They weren't bought to treat JB's infections. A better way to have treated JB was to stop giving her bubble baths. How many doctor visits would it take for any mom here to stop the baths? JB had over 30 visits.


I was just about to say the very same things...LOL! Patsy didnt say they were for treatment of an infect. Instead she said, they were for her niece.

The more this stuff is discussed and analyzed the stupider this whole thing gets. These people were given far to much credit for intelligence when in fact, they were lucky idiots... Unreal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #353  
Old 07-16-2011, 10:07 AM
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And this is only 1 tiny part of the case. Compound the idiocy by 1000 or more!
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  #354  
Old 07-17-2011, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
Also, Patsy admitted to police in her interviews that she bought the large-size panties for her niece, who was several years older than JB. They weren't bought to treat JB's infections. A better way to have treated JB was to stop giving her bubble baths. How many doctor visits would it take for any mom here to stop the baths? JB had over 30 visits.
DeeDee249,

So what has Patsy to worry about? She told it like it was, she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, and thats the reason why JonBenet must be wearing size-12's. Except that no size-12's were found in the underwear drawer or anywhere else in the house!

Why did she not say oh those are Jenny's, the intruder must have redressed JonBenet in them, and an explanation for the rest being missing, well the intruder has a fetish for underwear?

Quite likely because she did not know about the size-12's, otherwise if she had redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, then had the remainder removed her first explanation would never pass her lips.

Which suggests either Burke or John redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, and with fibers from John's israeli manufactured shirt found on JonBenet's genital area, this might point to John as the redresser?

When questioned about the barbie doll Patsy never offered any explanation relating to a Christmas gift. Nothing zilch, yet our received wisdom is that both were Christmas gifts, so why the convoluted tale in one instance and relative silence on the other?



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  #355  
Old 07-17-2011, 10:07 PM
DeeDee249 DeeDee249 is offline
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DeeDee249,

So what has Patsy to worry about? She told it like it was, she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, and thats the reason why JonBenet must be wearing size-12's. Except that no size-12's were found in the underwear drawer or anywhere else in the house!

Why did she not say oh those are Jenny's, the intruder must have redressed JonBenet in them, and an explanation for the rest being missing, well the intruder has a fetish for underwear?

Quite likely because she did not know about the size-12's, otherwise if she had redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, then had the remainder removed her first explanation would never pass her lips.

Which suggests either Burke or John redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, and with fibers from John's israeli manufactured shirt found on JonBenet's genital area, this might point to John as the redresser?

When questioned about the barbie doll Patsy never offered any explanation relating to a Christmas gift. Nothing zilch, yet our received wisdom is that both were Christmas gifts, so why the convoluted tale in one instance and relative silence on the other?



.
I can't imagine Patsy didn't know about the panties. She did admit buying them for Jenny, and she admitted wrapping presents in the basement, thought she falsely claimed to have put those panties in JB's drawer.
She had to have told JR where they were if she wasn't there herself. I agree JR was the redresser, regardless of who killed her. His fibers link him to those panties.
I have no idea why Patsy did not offer anything further on the doll. But frankly, I don't see where LE asked any specific questions about it. They mentioned the doll in their questioning, but I don't see that they asked why it was there. No questions about whether it was a gift that year. It had to be a gift for someone- the doll was not available before 1996. It was a special Holiday Barbie, they make a new and different one each Christmas season.
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  #356  
Old 07-17-2011, 10:39 PM
Chrishope Chrishope is offline
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Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
I can't imagine Patsy didn't know about the panties. She did admit buying them for Jenny, and she admitted wrapping presents in the basement, thought she falsely claimed to have put those panties in JB's drawer.
She had to have told JR where they were if she wasn't there herself. I agree JR was the redresser, regardless of who killed her. His fibers link him to those panties.
I have no idea why Patsy did not offer anything further on the doll. But frankly, I don't see where LE asked any specific questions about it. They mentioned the doll in their questioning, but I don't see that they asked why it was there. No questions about whether it was a gift that year. It had to be a gift for someone- the doll was not available before 1996. It was a special Holiday Barbie, they make a new and different one each Christmas season.
If I have my facts straight, JBR was redressed in the clothing she had on when the family arrived home that night. PR would have known the size 12s were wrong. She could only have told JR where to get them if the plan was to make it appear the "intruder" (who senselessly stops to redress her) didn't know any better. I think UKGuy is probably right, PR didn't know of the 12s until the police mentioned it to her.
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  #357  
Old 07-17-2011, 11:11 PM
DeeDee249 DeeDee249 is offline
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If I have my facts straight, JBR was redressed in the clothing she had on when the family arrived home that night. PR would have known the size 12s were wrong. She could only have told JR where to get them if the plan was to make it appear the "intruder" (who senselessly stops to redress her) didn't know any better. I think UKGuy is probably right, PR didn't know of the 12s until the police mentioned it to her.
JB had on only the TOP she had worn that day (a white Gap sweatshirt with a silver sequin star). Her bottoms were long johns that Patsy claimed to have put on a sleeping JB when they arrived home that night.
I still disagree about Patsy knowing about the panties. There are other reasons why those particular panties were used. For one- they were likely right there in the basement wrapped among other presents for Jenny, for whom they were originally bought. (we know there were partially unwrapped gifts found right there in the wineceller). Using a pair from the basement would eliminate the need to go upstairs and into JB's drawers for her own panties.
IF JB also owned a set of those Bloomies day-of-the-week panties in her OWN size, she may have been wearing the "Wednesday" pair that day to the White's, as Christmas Day was a Wednesday that year. It would have been a very "Patsy" thing to do, putting on the appropriate pair of panties. The Rs admitted that JB could not read...the chance that JB would have pulled out a pair that said "Wednesday" out of all the other panties there is unlikely. We also know that police found NO other size 12 panties anywhere in the house, including JB's panty drawer, and because Patsy sent along the rest of the set (6 remaining pairs) 5 years later still new in the package this kinda puts to rest that she actually put those size 12s in JB's drawer.
IF JB had worn her own pair of Wednesday panties, there is a chance that someone at the White's may have seen them, as JB was known to ask anyone around to help her in the bathroom. That is something that might have been remembered when questioned by police, and there was a good chance people at the party would be questioned by police. It may have felt necessary to redress JB in an identical (except for size) pair. I truly feel that the Rs thought no one would notice that they were too big on her. They were put on UNDER the long johns, after all, so it's not like they were hanging down. She was also dead (or dying) so she wasn't walking around in them. Looking at her in the longjohns, nothing looked out of the ordinary. I think they probably assumed JB would be undressed by the coroner, but just figured they'd be pulled off and that was that.
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  #358  
Old 07-18-2011, 01:18 AM
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JB had on only the TOP she had worn that day (a white Gap sweatshirt with a silver sequin star). Her bottoms were long johns that Patsy claimed to have put on a sleeping JB when they arrived home that night.
I still disagree about Patsy knowing about the panties. There are other reasons why those particular panties were used. For one- they were likely right there in the basement wrapped among other presents for Jenny, for whom they were originally bought. (we know there were partially unwrapped gifts found right there in the wineceller). Using a pair from the basement would eliminate the need to go upstairs and into JB's drawers for her own panties.
IF JB also owned a set of those Bloomies day-of-the-week panties in her OWN size, she may have been wearing the "Wednesday" pair that day to the White's, as Christmas Day was a Wednesday that year. It would have been a very "Patsy" thing to do, putting on the appropriate pair of panties. The Rs admitted that JB could not read...the chance that JB would have pulled out a pair that said "Wednesday" out of all the other panties there is unlikely. We also know that police found NO other size 12 panties anywhere in the house, including JB's panty drawer, and because Patsy sent along the rest of the set (6 remaining pairs) 5 years later still new in the package this kinda puts to rest that she actually put those size 12s in JB's drawer.
IF JB had worn her own pair of Wednesday panties, there is a chance that someone at the White's may have seen them, as JB was known to ask anyone around to help her in the bathroom. That is something that might have been remembered when questioned by police, and there was a good chance people at the party would be questioned by police. It may have felt necessary to redress JB in an identical (except for size) pair. I truly feel that the Rs thought no one would notice that they were too big on her. They were put on UNDER the long johns, after all, so it's not like they were hanging down. She was also dead (or dying) so she wasn't walking around in them. Looking at her in the longjohns, nothing looked out of the ordinary. I think they probably assumed JB would be undressed by the coroner, but just figured they'd be pulled off and that was that.
That is exactly the way I see it.
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  #359  
Old 07-18-2011, 06:20 AM
Chrishope Chrishope is offline
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JB had on only the TOP she had worn that day (a white Gap sweatshirt with a silver sequin star). Her bottoms were long johns that Patsy claimed to have put on a sleeping JB when they arrived home that night.
I still disagree about Patsy knowing about the panties. There are other reasons why those particular panties were used. For one- they were likely right there in the basement wrapped among other presents for Jenny, for whom they were originally bought. (we know there were partially unwrapped gifts found right there in the wineceller). Using a pair from the basement would eliminate the need to go upstairs and into JB's drawers for her own panties.
IF JB also owned a set of those Bloomies day-of-the-week panties in her OWN size, she may have been wearing the "Wednesday" pair that day to the White's, as Christmas Day was a Wednesday that year. It would have been a very "Patsy" thing to do, putting on the appropriate pair of panties. The Rs admitted that JB could not read...the chance that JB would have pulled out a pair that said "Wednesday" out of all the other panties there is unlikely. We also know that police found NO other size 12 panties anywhere in the house, including JB's panty drawer, and because Patsy sent along the rest of the set (6 remaining pairs) 5 years later still new in the package this kinda puts to rest that she actually put those size 12s in JB's drawer.
IF JB had worn her own pair of Wednesday panties, there is a chance that someone at the White's may have seen them, as JB was known to ask anyone around to help her in the bathroom. That is something that might have been remembered when questioned by police, and there was a good chance people at the party would be questioned by police. It may have felt necessary to redress JB in an identical (except for size) pair. I truly feel that the Rs thought no one would notice that they were too big on her. They were put on UNDER the long johns, after all, so it's not like they were hanging down. She was also dead (or dying) so she wasn't walking around in them. Looking at her in the longjohns, nothing looked out of the ordinary. I think they probably assumed JB would be undressed by the coroner, but just figured they'd be pulled off and that was that.
Thank you for refreshing my memory. The longjohns supposedly were put on her while she slept in her bed. She was then -supposedly- put to bed still wearing the white GAP shirt she'd worn all day?

You make a good point that putting the size 12s with the WED. marker made it look like the same pair she had on at the party. I'm still a bit skeptical though.

Being a male, and having no daughters, I'd have absolutely no idea what size panties a 6 year old girl wears. Most women would know. That means if she had size 12 panties on at the party, and someone was asked to help her in the bathroom, a woman would have noticed if she had 12s on. A man probably wouldn't. Of course we know she wasn't wearing 12s at the party.

There is also the problem of why PR said she put them in JBR's drawer. She had no reason to say it if she knew the panties were in the basement. She could just let the police suppose the intruder put them on her - and the intruder would have done it because they were handy and being a guy, the intruder wouldn't know they were the wrong size.

JBR's undie drawer is an odd place to keep presents, even underwear. As you point out, other gifts were in the basement. For some reason, PR wanted the police to suppose that the 12s had been in the drawer, and that the intruder put them on her in her bedroom. Or when informed that JBR was wearing 12s, that's the first story she could manufacture to make it seem to make sense.

I don't really see why PR would want to save time not going back upstairs for the correct size. They had hours and hours to stage the "kidnapping gone wrong".

I think it's quite possible there were multiple stagings, and that PR maybe didn't know about a re-re-staging with the 12s.
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  #360  
Old 07-18-2011, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
I can't imagine Patsy didn't know about the panties. She did admit buying them for Jenny, and she admitted wrapping presents in the basement, thought she falsely claimed to have put those panties in JB's drawer.
She had to have told JR where they were if she wasn't there herself. I agree JR was the redresser, regardless of who killed her. His fibers link him to those panties.
I have no idea why Patsy did not offer anything further on the doll. But frankly, I don't see where LE asked any specific questions about it. They mentioned the doll in their questioning, but I don't see that they asked why it was there. No questions about whether it was a gift that year. It had to be a gift for someone- the doll was not available before 1996. It was a special Holiday Barbie, they make a new and different one each Christmas season.
DeeDee249,
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I can't imagine Patsy didn't know about the panties.
Well nothing she said suggested she did. She offered a contradiction instead normally this occurs when someone thinks the evidence cannot be checked. If Patsy redressed JonBenet and removed the remainder then she would have been aware what she was saying was nonsense.

It could be that the selection of a Wednesday pair was to run along the same line as JonBenet's headstone dedication suggesting death prior to 12:00, who knows?

The point to note about the wine-cellar staging is not the location or that JonBenet was secreted away inside but that JonBenet was redressed when she need not be, and that whomever completed it messed it up by redressing JonBenet in those size-12's.

The precise rationale for this, we cannot be certain of, but trading the actual size in preference for the day-of-the-week, seems like a lose lose decision however you look at it. Consider the converse JonBenet is discovered in size-6 underwear stating any day-of-the-week except for Wednesday. Now personally that would have been my choice, since, unless you actually know JonBenet shared a toilet with someone else, it seems less of a risk than the visibly wrong size of the size-12's. And of course since its a staging event intended to convince someone I reckon I'll just go upstairs and fetch a pair of size-6's. For all we know, there was another Wednesday pair in her underwear drawer? The exact detail of what was removed has never been revealed. That is JonBenet may have been found wearing a brand new pair of size-12 Bloomingdales marked with Wednesday, with the remainder returned all those years later, likely confirming their origin? This does not mean there was not a Wednesday pair of size-6's in her underwear drawer!


As per the alleged RDI, it was John who redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, likely selecting the Wednesday pair on grounds of consistency. I reckon John was was amending some aspects of a prior staging?


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  #361  
Old 07-18-2011, 08:13 PM
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I think it's quite possible there were multiple stagings, and that PR maybe didn't know about a re-re-staging with the 12s.
Chrishope,
That would be my interpretation otherwise why would she bother with her fabrication about placing the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer?

When interviewed about the pineapple snack etc she disowned some of the items on the table. Similarly with the flashlight not ours the R's said.

But for the size-12's which she had been tipped off about prior to the actual interview Patsy invents an explanation which is completely contradicted because there were no size-12's anywhere in the house. If she had been the size-12 redresser she would have known these facts. And in knowing these facts she would have been better placed to say: not our underwear too large for JonBenet, the intruder must have brought them with him

So if Patsy knew all the facts why did she not disown the size-12's?


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Old 07-18-2011, 11:24 PM
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Chrishope,
So if Patsy knew all the facts why did she not disown the size-12's?
interesting question..... if we were to assume JR (or someone else) did the redressing and she didn't know about it, and perhaps didn't know about the molestation or wet/stained underwear, or any reason for the underwear to be removed, or JBR's 'area' to be cleaned and changed, then maybe she is not thinking of a reason for an intruder to need to bring underwear with him, and has to think of a reason for her to be in them in the first place...

also, even if it would seem that saying an intruder brought the underwear with him, to put distance of any knowledge of them, that doesn't seem like a likely thing to say that an intruder would do...it sounds absurd, and why would an intruder need to do that. Maybe she thought saying that woudn't make any sense either,

...and anyway if she was supposedly only being kidnapped, why would her underwear have been changed by an intruder? After all, when asked if she knew if JonBenet had been molested, she said no she had no knowledge of it, and said that she had no knowledge of any prior molestation either. Whether that was true or not, she did not know, or at least intend, for molestation to be part of the intruder evidence.

But this underwear is a huge deal when considering the fact that they came forward with the rest of the package years later. Why do it at all at that point? They're trying to say it was perfectly normal for the underwear to be in the house, and have it coincide with their original story, that's why. But it also wipes away any doubt that the underwear did not originate in the house. Yet it was not in her drawer as stated. If it really was wrapped in a package, someone had to specifically look for underwear to replace on JBR, and knew to find it in a wrapped gift, and only a Ramsey would know that.

It really is another huge smoking gun.
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  #363  
Old 07-19-2011, 06:34 PM
Chrishope Chrishope is offline
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Chrishope,
That would be my interpretation otherwise why would she bother with her fabrication about placing the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer?

When interviewed about the pineapple snack etc she disowned some of the items on the table. Similarly with the flashlight not ours the R's said.

But for the size-12's which she had been tipped off about prior to the actual interview Patsy invents an explanation which is completely contradicted because there were no size-12's anywhere in the house. If she had been the size-12 redresser she would have known these facts. And in knowing these facts she would have been better placed to say: not our underwear too large for JonBenet, the intruder must have brought them with him

So if Patsy knew all the facts why did she not disown the size-12's?
.
We know there were at least one pair of 12s in the house, and it seems likely they came from a package which contained the other days of the week. (Most of us here are RDI, so lets not get bogged down in asking why the "intruder" would bring one pair of WED size 12s)

Whether the package had been wrapped or not, we don't know. If we theorize that JR put the 12s on JBR, he either knew which package to unwrap, or they were not yet wrapped, and he saw them.

As UKGuy points out, JBs dresser drawer may well have contained other pairs of WED size 6s. We don't know. Then again, maybe the drawer was searched and no WED pair could be found?

The fact that she was redressed in the WED 12s would seem to indicate someone wanted her wearing panties labeld WED. Otherwise why not pull any pair out of the drawer, or out of the package?

Doesn't it seem as though she had been redressed to be consistent with the story that would be told to police? She was carried upstairs, put to bed, and the long johns were put on her. Essentially she is wearing what she wore at the Christmas dinner/party. Except that the LJs were put on her when she was put to bed. And I guess her bottoms (what had she worn to the party, a skirt? pants?) were removed.

Of course, Burke contradicts the story of JB being carried into the house asleep. Even if he's mistaken, we still don't know that LJs actually were put on her at bedtime. Could be they were put on her after the murder. But the story was going to be they were put on her at bedtime. She had to be found wearing the same thing the Rs said she had on when put to bed.

So, if the story has been agreed upon, and has to be kept straight, then she has to be wearing WED panties, long johns, and her white Gap top.

So maybe the WED tag was more important than size? Maybe the redresser didn't really know the size was way way too big? But he knew they had to say WED ?

Maybe PR thought JB was dressed in her original 6s, and the story about the package being in JBs drawer is an attempt to explain how JB could end up in 12s? If she didn't know what happened to the original size 6s, she can't disown the 12s because then the only explanation is the unlikely one that the "intruder" brought them. An intruder who happens to know JB wears day of the week panties, and happens to know that PR is a stickler for wearing them on the correct day.

Where are JBs size 6 WED panties?

As an aside, does anyone have experience with underwear labeled for each day of the week? Would it be very likely, after the first couple weeks, that anyone would really care which "day" was being worn on any particular day? If you'll excuse the bad joke, it seems like a PITA.
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Old 07-19-2011, 08:58 PM
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We know there were at least one pair of 12s in the house, and it seems likely they came from a package which contained the other days of the week. (Most of us here are RDI, so lets not get bogged down in asking why the "intruder" would bring one pair of WED size 12s)

Whether the package had been wrapped or not, we don't know. If we theorize that JR put the 12s on JBR, he either knew which package to unwrap, or they were not yet wrapped, and he saw them.

As UKGuy points out, JBs dresser drawer may well have contained other pairs of WED size 6s. We don't know. Then again, maybe the drawer was searched and no WED pair could be found?

The fact that she was redressed in the WED 12s would seem to indicate someone wanted her wearing panties labeld WED. Otherwise why not pull any pair out of the drawer, or out of the package?

Doesn't it seem as though she had been redressed to be consistent with the story that would be told to police? She was carried upstairs, put to bed, and the long johns were put on her. Essentially she is wearing what she wore at the Christmas dinner/party. Except that the LJs were put on her when she was put to bed. And I guess her bottoms (what had she worn to the party, a skirt? pants?) were removed.

Of course, Burke contradicts the story of JB being carried into the house asleep. Even if he's mistaken, we still don't know that LJs actually were put on her at bedtime. Could be they were put on her after the murder. But the story was going to be they were put on her at bedtime. She had to be found wearing the same thing the Rs said she had on when put to bed.

So, if the story has been agreed upon, and has to be kept straight, then she has to be wearing WED panties, long johns, and her white Gap top.

So maybe the WED tag was more important than size? Maybe the redresser didn't really know the size was way way too big? But he knew they had to say WED ?

Maybe PR thought JB was dressed in her original 6s, and the story about the package being in JBs drawer is an attempt to explain how JB could end up in 12s? If she didn't know what happened to the original size 6s, she can't disown the 12s because then the only explanation is the unlikely one that the "intruder" brought them. An intruder who happens to know JB wears day of the week panties, and happens to know that PR is a stickler for wearing them on the correct day.

Where are JBs size 6 WED panties?

As an aside, does anyone have experience with underwear labeled for each day of the week? Would it be very likely, after the first couple weeks, that anyone would really care which "day" was being worn on any particular day? If you'll excuse the bad joke, it seems like a PITA.
Chrishope,
Quote:
The fact that she was redressed in the WED 12s would seem to indicate someone wanted her wearing panties labeld WED. Otherwise why not pull any pair out of the drawer, or out of the package?
Note quite. Because if there is a size-6 Wednesday pair in her underwear drawer then we need to explain why they were rejected in favor of the size-12's. Then we could all be wrong and they have been selected at random e.g. any size, any day of the week, as long as its underwear?


Quote:
So, if the story has been agreed upon, and has to be kept straight, then she has to be wearing WED panties, long johns, and her white Gap top.
I reckon it was John who redressed JonBenet. Probably removing a prior redressing by Patsy?

John and Patsy agree on what JonBenet was wearing when she was placed into bed. Assuming Patsy was genuinely ignorant regarding the size-12's, then it appears that John deliberately did not tell her. Although when questioned about the underwear that JonBenet was wearing when her velvet pants were removed Patsy never noticed, just that if there had been none she would have noticed that? So in both interviews Patsy is consistent in demonstrating a degree of ignorance, what we do not know is if this is intentional?


Quote:
Maybe PR thought JB was dressed in her original 6s, and the story about the package being in JBs drawer is an attempt to explain how JB could end up in 12s? If she didn't know what happened to the original size 6s, she can't disown the 12s because then the only explanation is the unlikely one that the "intruder" brought them. An intruder who happens to know JB wears day of the week panties, and happens to know that PR is a stickler for wearing them on the correct day.
In the original interview the first thing established is Patsy recounting her trip to New York and Bloomingdales to purchase the size-12's as a gift for her niece Jenny. Patsy is explicitly told we have to make sure that the intruder did not bring them into the house!

Patsy was fabricating stuff about JonBenet and the size-12's which turned out to be false and provably so. For whatever reason, she must have thought the size-12's were still somewhere in the house? Patsy suggested JonBenet was wearing the size-12's because she placed them into her underwear drawer. So when none are discovered in the house, it follows, as per IDI, that the intruder removed them. This is one reductio too far so someone realized we could return them and suggest LEA had missed them? And for RDI its indirect evidence that crime-scene evidence was indeed safely transported out of the house.

Quote:
As an aside, does anyone have experience with underwear labeled for each day of the week? Would it be very likely, after the first couple weeks, that anyone would really care which "day" was being worn on any particular day? If you'll excuse the bad joke, it seems like a PITA.
Probably not, I doubt JonBenet would be that concerned, maybe Patsy if she had dressed JonBenet prior to leaving for the White's.

I suspect that the Wednesday day of the week feature might simply be a red herring. That is we can attribute all manner of importance to it e.g. someone may have witnessed JonBenet wearing size-6 Wednesday pair, or the redresser wanted to keep the staging consistent.

When actually if a witness might notice Wednesday on the waistband, would they also not notice that they were hanging about her knees too?

It is curious that Patsy is ignorant about what underwear JonBenet wore to the Whites, what underwear JonBenet was wearing when she allegedly placed the longjohns on her. Because given what we know transpired she should have felt confident enough to state size-12's.

Which indirectly makes the alternative explanation even less likely e.g. Patsy redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, but John removed the remainder, but omitted to tell Patsy?

Quote:
Where are JBs size 6 WED panties?
Probably the same place that the remaining size-12's ended up in. The more interesting question is why were they removed at all?


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Old 07-19-2011, 09:18 PM
UKGuy UKGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by Whaleshark View Post
interesting question..... if we were to assume JR (or someone else) did the redressing and she didn't know about it, and perhaps didn't know about the molestation or wet/stained underwear, or any reason for the underwear to be removed, or JBR's 'area' to be cleaned and changed, then maybe she is not thinking of a reason for an intruder to need to bring underwear with him, and has to think of a reason for her to be in them in the first place...

also, even if it would seem that saying an intruder brought the underwear with him, to put distance of any knowledge of them, that doesn't seem like a likely thing to say that an intruder would do...it sounds absurd, and why would an intruder need to do that. Maybe she thought saying that woudn't make any sense either,

...and anyway if she was supposedly only being kidnapped, why would her underwear have been changed by an intruder? After all, when asked if she knew if JonBenet had been molested, she said no she had no knowledge of it, and said that she had no knowledge of any prior molestation either. Whether that was true or not, she did not know, or at least intend, for molestation to be part of the intruder evidence.

But this underwear is a huge deal when considering the fact that they came forward with the rest of the package years later. Why do it at all at that point? They're trying to say it was perfectly normal for the underwear to be in the house, and have it coincide with their original story, that's why. But it also wipes away any doubt that the underwear did not originate in the house. Yet it was not in her drawer as stated. If it really was wrapped in a package, someone had to specifically look for underwear to replace on JBR, and knew to find it in a wrapped gift, and only a Ramsey would know that.

It really is another huge smoking gun.
Whaleshark,
Quote:
It really is another huge smoking gun.
It really is, not even IDI can explain this one away.

Quote:
But this underwear is a huge deal when considering the fact that they came forward with the rest of the package years later. Why do it at all at that point?
Because no size-12 underwear was found anywhere in the house by BPD. Yet Patsy's explanation depended on their existence. That is JonBenet wore the size-12's to the White's, because neither Patsy or any intruder dressed JonBenet in them and presumably no worn size-6 pair was found in her bedroom?

Quote:
interesting question..... if we were to assume JR (or someone else) did the redressing and she didn't know about it, and perhaps didn't know about the molestation or wet/stained underwear, or any reason for the underwear to be removed, or JBR's 'area' to be cleaned and changed, then maybe she is not thinking of a reason for an intruder to need to bring underwear with him, and has to think of a reason for her to be in them in the first place...
This just might be the correct explanation, since although the forensic evidence suggests that Patsy may have applied the ligature etc. This does not preclude the possibility that JonBenet was already cleaned up, and redressed, along comes Patsy adds and applies the ligature, finishing off with the duct-tape etc, whilst John is busy removing the remaining size-12's and worn size-6's?



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Old 07-19-2011, 10:31 PM
DeeDee249 DeeDee249 is offline
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JB couldn't read, so selecting the correct day of the week would not be an issue for her- someone else would have to do it for her.
As far as whether someone would continue to choose the correct day of the week from the set after the novelty of owning such a set had worn off...I am sure at some point wearing the correct day panty would cease being necessary, but that depends on the person. I know some girls who couldn't care less and some who would ONLY wear the correct day.
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Old 07-19-2011, 10:52 PM
Chrishope Chrishope is offline
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Note quite. Because if there is a size-6 Wednesday pair in her underwear drawer then we need to explain why they were rejected in favor of the size-12's. Then we could all be wrong and they have been selected at random e.g. any size, any day of the week, as long as its underwear?
Quote:
I suspect that the Wednesday day of the week feature might simply be a red herring. That is we can attribute all manner of importance to it e.g. someone may have witnessed JonBenet wearing size-6 Wednesday pair, or the redresser wanted to keep the staging consistent.
Possibly.

It's hard to think of a reason to specifically select the 12s. If selected randomly, they likely were not in a package in JBs dresser drawer - why bother opening a package if one doesn't care what panties are selected? One possibility - opening a package assures they are "clean" at least of any trace evidence pointing back to the redresser. But why not just pull out the top pair from the package? I assume Wed would be near the middle of the "stack" within the package, though I guess it's not absolutely necessary they were packaged in correct order by day. Were there different colors for different days? Could color have been the criteria?

If they were loose in the drawer, random selection would be possible. But this contradicts the story of buying them as a gift. If JR was the redresser, it might also explain not knowing they were wrong -despite appearances - since they came from her drawer.

In either case, this places the redressing in the bedroom, which seems unlikely.

Quote:
In the original interview the first thing established is Patsy recounting her trip to New York and Bloomingdales to purchase the size-12's as a gift for her niece Jenny. Patsy is explicitly told we have to make sure that the intruder did not bring them into the house!
I'm not sure of this. Why would it be important that the intruder didn't bring them? -I mean other than the sheer unbelievability of it? Certainly it's no sillier than the intruder redressing the victim in the first place.


Quote:
Patsy was fabricating stuff about JonBenet and the size-12's which turned out to be false and provably so. For whatever reason, she must have thought the size-12's were still somewhere in the house? Patsy suggested JonBenet was wearing the size-12's because she placed them into her underwear drawer. So when none are discovered in the house, it follows, as per IDI, that the intruder removed them. This is one reductio too far so someone realized we could return them and suggest LEA had missed them? And for RDI its indirect evidence that crime-scene evidence was indeed safely transported out of the house.
She knew the 12s were in the house the night of the murder. She "explains" why the 12s are on JB - they were in her drawer. As you pointed out, we do not know if the ignorance is real or feigned.
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  #368  
Old 07-20-2011, 07:49 PM
DeeDee249 DeeDee249 is offline
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Originally Posted by Chrishope View Post
Possibly.

It's hard to think of a reason to specifically select the 12s. If selected randomly, they likely were not in a package in JBs dresser drawer - why bother opening a package if one doesn't care what panties are selected? One possibility - opening a package assures they are "clean" at least of any trace evidence pointing back to the redresser. But why not just pull out the top pair from the package? I assume Wed would be near the middle of the "stack" within the package, though I guess it's not absolutely necessary they were packaged in correct order by day. Were there different colors for different days? Could color have been the criteria?

If they were loose in the drawer, random selection would be possible. But this contradicts the story of buying them as a gift. If JR was the redresser, it might also explain not knowing they were wrong -despite appearances - since they came from her drawer.

In either case, this places the redressing in the bedroom, which seems unlikely.

I'm not sure of this. Why would it be important that the intruder didn't bring them? -I mean other than the sheer unbelievability of it? Certainly it's no sillier than the intruder redressing the victim in the first place.


She knew the 12s were in the house the night of the murder. She "explains" why the 12s are on JB - they were in her drawer. As you pointed out, we do not know if the ignorance is real or feigned.
Well, I had given at least two reasons why the size 12s were selected. Knowing there were panties right there in the basement meant no one had to go up to JB's room to get another pair. Selecting the WEDNESDAY pair, though, may have been deliberate. I have seen these kind of panties new in the package and, yes, they are placed in the pack in order (Sunday, Monday, etc.) Wednesday pair is in the CENTER of the package and to me, requires a deliberate selection, otherwise you'd just pull out the first pair in the package.
The only reason I can see why Patsy admitted the panties were the ones she bought for her niece is that she may have been worried police would find proof she had bought them (credit card receipts, store receipts). Maybe she didn't think fast enough- if police were willing to believe an intruder bought them, why not let them? It is the same as JR admitting he was the one who broke the basement window. The housekeeper knew about it because she had been asked to clean it up, so he had to admit it. Didn't stop LS from ignoring that FACTm though. He still made it seem like an intruder had broken it.
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:56 PM
Chrishope Chrishope is offline
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Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
Well, I had given at least two reasons why the size 12s were selected. Knowing there were panties right there in the basement meant no one had to go up to JB's room to get another pair. Selecting the WEDNESDAY pair, though, may have been deliberate. I have seen these kind of panties new in the package and, yes, they are placed in the pack in order (Sunday, Monday, etc.) Wednesday pair is in the CENTER of the package and to me, requires a deliberate selection, otherwise you'd just pull out the first pair in the package.
The only reason I can see why Patsy admitted the panties were the ones she bought for her niece is that she may have been worried police would find proof she had bought them (credit card receipts, store receipts). Maybe she didn't think fast enough- if police were willing to believe an intruder bought them, why not let them? It is the same as JR admitting he was the one who broke the basement window. The housekeeper knew about it because she had been asked to clean it up, so he had to admit it. Didn't stop LS from ignoring that FACTm though. He still made it seem like an intruder had broken it.
Yes, they could have been selected because they were convenient. And you're right, going back upstairs for panties may have raised questions the rederesser didn't want asked.

When I said there was no sensible reason to select the 12s I meant just that there was no reason to prefer 12s as a size - not that there couldn't be other reasons for selecting those panties, which happened to be 12s.

It makes sense that PR told about buying them as a gift because she may have bought them with a credit card.
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  #370  
Old 07-21-2011, 01:47 AM
Whaleshark Whaleshark is offline
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Some Testimony re: underwear

TOM HANEY: "Did JonBenet have panties with the names of each day of the week on it?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "YES."
TOM HANEY: " OKAY. And did she wear those according to the day of the week or was it just kind of ---"
PATSY RAMSEY: "Just whatever."
TOM HANEY: "Did she know, pay much attention to what day of the week it was?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "No."
TOM HANEY: "So what ever would come out of the drawer?"
PATSY RAMSEY: "Yes."
___

Testimony of why the size 12s might be in JBRs drawer:

1 A. I am sure that I put the package
2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
3 them and put them on.
4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
7 you bought them in November?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the
18 laundry for the family, that is part of her
19 duties; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash
22 clothes on occasion?
23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.
24 Q. Do you have any recollection of
25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?

85
1 A. Not specifically.
2 Q. Was it something that, the fact
3 that she is wearing these underpants designed
4 for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and
5 I will give you a minute to think about it
6 because I know it is tough to try to pin
7 down a couple of months of casual
8 conversation -- do you recall ever having any
9 conversations with her concerning the fact
10 that she is wearing underwear that is just
11 too large for her?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it
14 was, if it had caught your attention or came
15 to your attention, do you think you might
16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't
17 fit, put something on that fits, that is
18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
19 had come to your attention --
20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
25 so.

86
1 I mean, if you have ever seen
2 these little panties, there is not too much
3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm
4 sure even if they were a little bit big,
5 they were special because we got them up
6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they
7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was
8 fine with me.
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see
10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically
13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?
14 And I am not saying --
15 THE WITNESS: They were just in
16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I
17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all
18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can
19 help herself to whatever is in there.
20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not
21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to
22 Jenny.
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in
25 JonBenet's bathroom?

87
1 A. Right.
2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm
3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then
4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet
5 express an interest in them; therefore, you
6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I
8 think I bought them with the intention of
9 sending them in a package of Christmas things
10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that
11 together, so I just put them in her, her
12 panty drawer. So they were free game.
___

11 Q. Why is it that you remember
12 buying Bloomingdale's panties in November of
13 1996?
14 A. Because --
15 MR. WOOD: Because she remembers
16 it. I mean --
17 MR. KANE: Wait a second, Lin.
18 Would you please let her answer the question?
19 It is a simple question.
20 MR. WOOD: Why is it that you
21 remember something?
22 MR. KANE: Yes, why do you
23 remember --
24 MR. WOOD: Because she remembered.
25 Q. (By Mr. Kane) - that, that

92
1 detail?
2 A. Well, for starters, it has been
3 made such a big detail.
4 Q. Okay, well, that is my question.
5 A. I remember that I -- and I, you
6 know, we were kind of shopping around, and
7 it was close to Christmas season, so we
8 might pick up a little souvenir. I
9 bought -- I think I picked up a little
10 something for a baby-sitter, you know.
11 Q. Where was it that you became
12 aware that this was -- where was it that it
13 was made a big deal? What was the source
14 of your information that Bloomingdale's
15 panties somehow were significant that made
16 you then say, wait a second, did I ever buy
17 those?
18 MR. WOOD: Do you have a precise
19 recollection of that event occurring where
20 all of a sudden something happened and you
21 decided it was some big deal?
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
23 mean, my first thought is something in the
24 tabloids, but, you know, they get everything
25 wrong, so --

93
1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you
2 aware that these were the size of panties
3 that she was wearing, and this has been
4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they
5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of
6 that?
7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.
8 Q. And how did you become aware of
9 that?
10 A. Something I read, I am sure.
11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.
Q. "Okay. And every one of those was either a size 4 or a size 6. Okay? Would that have been about the size pair of panties that she wore when she was 6 years old?"
A. "I would say more like 6 to 8. There were probably some in there that were too small."
Q. "Okay, but not size 12 to 14?"
A. "Not typically, no."

__

Doesn't seem there were any size 12/14s in the underwear drawer, despite the fact that PR tries to say that's where they probably were, but yet none would typically be kept in there.
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Old 07-21-2011, 12:26 PM
DeeDee249 DeeDee249 is offline
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And as we know, though Patsy was "sure she put them in JB's panty drawer", the remaining 6 pairs were sent to LE through her attorney LW 5 years later, still in the original package.
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Old 07-21-2011, 02:02 PM
21merc7 21merc7 is offline
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Who besides Patsy would know if JB was originally wearing size 6 Wednesday panties?

Maybe this is where the Wednesday issue lies. I would think JB would have soiled herself upon the blow to the head, the stun gun, or even the actual strangling. One of those would have brought about soiling, both urine and fecal matter. So, to try to keep things continuous a Wednesday pair would be selected in cover up mode. That could have created a slip up with JR and PR being questioned, so why not stick with what you already knew and held in your mind that JB was wearing.

Obviously getting rid of the soiled size 6s would be a priority.
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Old 07-21-2011, 02:13 PM
Chrishope Chrishope is offline
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Originally Posted by 21merc7 View Post
Who besides Patsy would know if JB was originally wearing size 6 Wednesday panties?

Maybe this is where the Wednesday issue lies. I would think JB would have soiled herself upon the blow to the head, the stun gun, or even the actual strangling. One of those would have brought about soiling, both urine and fecal matter. So, to try to keep things continuous a Wednesday pair would be selected in cover up mode. That could have created a slip up with JR and PR being questioned, so why not stick with what you already knew and held in your mind that JB was wearing.

Obviously getting rid of the soiled size 6s would be a priority.

I think that makes sense. They were concerned their stories should be consistent, and that they knew nothing of any events between putting JBR to bed and waking up to find the RN.

No one but PR would have known with certainty what size JBR was wearing, but proper sized WED panties would have been assumed by anyone else.

Because the WED pair had to be pulled out of the middle of the package, it seems they were chosen specifically for their WED marking.

Since the size 6s she was wearing that night are gone, we don't even know if they were marked Wednesday. It may not even have been necessary to select the WED panties from the package.
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Chrishope View Post
I think that makes sense. They were concerned their stories should be consistent, and that they knew nothing of any events between putting JBR to bed and waking up to find the RN.

No one but PR would have known with certainty what size JBR was wearing, but proper sized WED panties would have been assumed by anyone else.

Because the WED pair had to be pulled out of the middle of the package, it seems they were chosen specifically for their WED marking.

Since the size 6s she was wearing that night are gone, we don't even know if they were marked Wednesday. It may not even have been necessary to select the WED panties from the package.
Chrishope,

I think Patsy said she was not sure what underwear JonBenet was wearing, also she never noticed what she was wearing when she undressed JonBenet, and said she was not present when JonBenet prepared herself for the White's party e.g. did she shower, did she change her underwear etc.

Quote:
Since the size 6s she was wearing that night are gone, we don't even know if they were marked Wednesday. It may not even have been necessary to select the WED panties from the package.
Precisely, also we do not know if there were a pair of Wednesday size-6's in her underwear drawer, something BPD have never revealed and that is a critical piece of information, as per the staging. I remember checking the evidence logs to count the underwear pairs and noticed that there were no sizes itemized anywhere.

I do not think the Day-Of-The-Week feature on the size-12's is all that important, simply because its absence would neither add nor subtract from the case evidence.

But the fact JonBenet was wearing size-12 underwear patently is important, since we know, unlike any Day-Of-The-Week being present, she should not be wearing them.

That is we can infer from the size but not from the Day-Of-The-Week!

I would argue if we can reason thus about the size then so could Patsy, and with her being caught out over her fabricated a story, I doubt it was her that redressed JonBenet in those size-12's?

John probably dressed JonBenet in those size-12's, did he deliberately keep Patsy in the dark, was he hiding JonBenet's molestation from Patsy, representing her death as an accident, who knows?

Patsy's fabrication about the size-12's being placed into JonBenet's underwear drawer is based on the assumption that they are available.

That they are not demonstrates Patsy's ignorance, the return of the remainder highlights this aspect.

Returning the remaining size-12's does not show that they were in the house when the police searched for them!


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Old 07-21-2011, 07:27 PM
SunnieRN SunnieRN is offline
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It seems illogical to me that Patsy redressed JonBenet the final time, in the size 12's. It seems she would have thought they would appear odd to anyone undressing her later. A Mom, would most likely go grab a suitable pair.

Second and to me more important, were the fibers from Johns rare Israeli sweater being present in JonBenets vaginal area.

As for the undies being turned in later, perhaps LE should have been more careful at the scene of the crime, when the R's left the house and not allowed anyone to take ANYTHING out of the house. I think a LOT of things would have been found!!
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