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  #26  
Old 01-06-2011, 03:33 AM
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Quick question: who is BO? I thought mom's initials were BD. TIA
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Old 01-06-2011, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by sarx View Post
Oh how I wish it were that simple, my life would be so much easier, lol. No, sadly, some dogs always have their noses stuck to the ground, some go down and up, some stay up most of the time, some are down when it's fresh and up when it's old, and some are the exact opposite. No two are alike. A good handler can "work" any dog, but they're not going to be able to read someone else's dog. So, if the dog takes them straight to the person, it's all good. If he doesn't and the handler has to decipher what the dog did, there's where knowing the dog becomes key. By the same token, if a person hasn't trained on say an old trail (or a super fresh trail, or a car trail, or a trail in the rain, the list goes on and on), then they aren't going to know what to look for because they've never seen it.
Thank you, you have provided a wealth of knowledge this evening.

Recently, there was a case where they were bringing dogs in to search under water... does the body fluid disperse in the water like in the air?

And thank you again!
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  #28  
Old 01-06-2011, 03:38 AM
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sarx - if you are still here. I have another question. I was told (by someone who is SAR) that German Shepherds notoriously cannot smell human remains under water, as in a lake or river. From what I understand - they can - that the gasses produced will rise to the surface of the water and disperse above it - and a dog - German Shepherd or not - can smell it and will react.
Well, my shepherd thoroughly enjoys bringing up dead fish from the bottom of the river....

LOL, ok, sorry for that, but say what? It is a different discipline of training all together and you may not have any success taking a trailing dog out on a boat and hovering over a dead body, but being a GSD has nothing to do with it. (Course any dog out on the water may act "funny" in the presence of those gases rising up, and just not know how to "alert" on it.) After all dogs generally love dead things, it's a natural behavior, just like all search disciplines.

There is no cookie cutter answer to what breed makes the best SAR dog, there are certainly breeds that are more apt to it, but even there, it is only a tiny handful who have what it takes. You can't take every bloodhound, lab, shepherd, etc and turn them into a SAR dog. There are a few breeds who because of their pinched/pugged noses they actually don't have great sniffers, but that's such a tiny group it's hardly worth mentioning. I've seen so many breeds and mutts that have been awesome that I would never judge a dog by it's coat.
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Old 01-06-2011, 03:38 AM
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Quick question: who is BO? I thought mom's initials were BD. TIA
BO is Mom. Billie Ostrander. IIRC
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Old 01-06-2011, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by StrayKat View Post
Thank you, you have provided a wealth of knowledge this evening.

Recently, there was a case where they were bringing dogs in to search under water... does the body fluid disperse in the water like in the air?

And thank you again!
Water dogs work off of the gases that are released when scent molecules diffuse into the water and then are evaporated when they reach the surface (turning into the gas the dog smells). This reaction can go on for months depending on conditions, possibly even longer.
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Old 01-06-2011, 03:47 AM
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I'm sure I've missed it. Has Hailey always lived here?
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Old 01-06-2011, 03:50 AM
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Well, my shepherd thoroughly enjoys bringing up dead fish from the bottom of the river....

LOL, ok, sorry for that, but say what? It is a different discipline of training all together and you may not have any success taking a trailing dog out on a boat and hovering over a dead body, but being a GSD has nothing to do with it. (Course any dog out on the water may act "funny" in the presence of those gases rising up, and just not know how to "alert" on it.) After all dogs generally love dead things, it's a natural behavior, just like all search disciplines.

There is no cookie cutter answer to what breed makes the best SAR dog, there are certainly breeds that are more apt to it, but even there, it is only a tiny handful who have what it takes. You can't take every bloodhound, lab, shepherd, etc and turn them into a SAR dog. There are a few breeds who because of their pinched/pugged noses they actually don't have great sniffers, but that's such a tiny group it's hardly worth mentioning. I've seen so many breeds and mutts that have been awesome that I would never judge a dog by it's coat.
Totally understand. - I would never judge a dog by it's coat.
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Old 01-06-2011, 03:54 AM
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To any locals.
Has the area behind Walnut Ave and the area around E 21st been searched?
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Old 01-06-2011, 03:54 AM
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And before I leave - here is Amanadareckonwith's PB case archive album link for Hailey -

http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/m...TX-/?start=all
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Old 01-06-2011, 04:18 AM
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To any locals.
Has the area behind Walnut Ave and the area around E 21st been searched?
I don't live there anymore but, those areas are pretty open I think.
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Old 01-06-2011, 04:20 AM
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I don't live there anymore but, those areas are pretty open I think.
It looks like there are some trees and possibly some dirt roads leading into the area? Does that sound right?
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Old 01-06-2011, 04:21 AM
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I think it would be a good time to bring in some HRD dogs for elimination purposes. Check the house, check the shed and check any vehicles that might be involved.
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  #38  
Old 01-06-2011, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by sarx View Post
I'm sure I've missed it. Has Hailey always lived here?
Not in that house we don't believe. I can't remember if either parent kept the house that they lived in during the marriage, once they separated. I know that fact is in one of the first threads.

In the area... I don't think we've heard if she has lived there her whole life? But I would think it's likely they have at least lived close.

I don't think we've seen really specific areas that have been searched. There have been citizens out doing searches. I do believe I have heard reference to Walnut and/or 21st being searched, but I could be wrong because I cannot find it right now.

We totally agree they need to bring in HRD dogs. I just don't know if they will... but they are finally searching now so maybe they will?


Quote:
Originally Posted by crocus View Post
BO is Mom. Billie Ostrander. IIRC
And since she and Clint Dunn are not technically divorced or remarried.... I do believe her name is technically Billie Dunn. That is how it has been in all of the recent articles. It was on Hailey's my space that it was BO and maybe an initial news article or 2.

But I think we can safely stick with Billie Dunn, Clint Dunn, Hailey Dunn and her brother DD. Less confusing I would think? (Plus I have this thing with initials like UTI, BM and BO I think, my brother says it's my inner teenager showing through...)

Last edited by MsFacetious; 01-06-2011 at 04:54 AM. Reason: too much peach schnapps...
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  #39  
Old 01-06-2011, 04:40 AM
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I think it would be a good time to bring in some HRD dogs for elimination purposes. Check the house, check the shed and check any vehicles that might be involved.
Yes, I agree. I do think things may be coming together for the investigators. They seemed to be on top of things today... or pacifying the public since it has gotten media attention.
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Old 01-06-2011, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by sarx View Post
To any locals.
Has the area behind Walnut Ave and the area around E 21st been searched?
Sorry, I was thinking of a different area. I don't know if that area has been searched. I do agree with you that is a good area to search. It is a thick area of foliage that does not get any traffic that I know of. Except for where the roads are.
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Old 01-06-2011, 04:48 AM
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I'm sure I've missed it. Has Hailey always lived here?
As far as I know... NO. I think they relocated there from either Dunn or Snyder, TX. Approx. 15? miles to Dunn and 20? miles to Snyder.
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  #42  
Old 01-06-2011, 05:27 AM
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I think the poly confusion can be cleared up by the time of the articles and information from the son, but there is still something hinky about refusing on Wednesday due to medication:

I believe the article that stated the home was being searched and the poly was administered was published prior to the article that stated the poly's were not taken. Perhaps the media just jumped the gun on stating the poly was administered because SA was at the station and was scheduled for the test....maybe they just assumed, because they had not heard otherwise? The second article stating he did not take the poly's was released at 10pm on Wednesday and states it was confirmed by the son at 8pm on Wednesday, so it seems most up to date.

Here's something else I thought about regarding the refusals and meds:

1. The 2nd article states (according to the son and uncles): SA refused TWO poly's on WEDNESDAY and signed paperwork for a third, but left before it could be administered. Logically the third had to be Wednesday as well, if he refused the first two on Wednesday and the info was released on Wednesday night.

2. This information seems to suggest to me that the refusals on Wednesday did not have to do with the medication. Would SA's medication be out of his system between his 1st refusal on Wednesday and the 2nd refusal again on Wednesday? In following other cases,
it usually seems (and/or I recall) they re-schedule for another day when the person has medication in there system, not later in the day (but I could be wrong about this, as it may depend on the medication and the effects of such). I just don't see him refusing poly #1 on Wednesday due to being on medication and the police talking him into poly #2 later in the day (while still on the medication) and again he refuses and then the police get him to sign the paperwork for poly #3 again later the same day and then he leaves. I do not believe the police would pressure him into poly #2 and #3 on the same day, if it was a medication issue. They want accurate results too!

3. Could the police have asked for a poly from him prior to Wednesday and they had to re-schedule for Wednesday due to him being on medication at the time of the initial plan for a poly and that's where the medication story is coming from? If so, why refuse on Wednesday?

Quote from the article:

"However, at about 8:00pm, Hailey’s older brother David told our CBS 7 crew that Shawn had refused to take two polygraph tests Wednesday.

David says that Shawn signed the paperwork to take a third but then refused to take it and left the building.

According to David, the Dunn family and police had not seen Shawn since that last polygraph refusal. "

http://www.cbs7.com/news/details.asp?ID=23234

Lastly, one thing I initially found strange was that it said SA had no contact with the family since the last refusal of the poly. I was thinking hmmm...wouldn't you want to be there for your girlfriend at a time like this? However, then when I noticed the time-line and saw that the 3rd poly was sometime on Wednesday and the info regarding no contact was only at 8pm Wednesday, so it does not appear to a significant period of no contact yet. I'd love to know if he went back to BO's later that night or on Thursday.
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Old 01-06-2011, 07:10 AM
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NO TIME ON THE ARTICLE

Texas Rangers also spent the day giving several polygraphs to people including Shawn Adkins, Hailey's mother's boyfriend who was the last person to see her alive

http://bigcountryhomepage.com/fulltext/?nxd_id=328636

January 5, 2011
10:00PM UPDATE:
Search for Colorado City Girl Takes a New Turn 1/5/11

Hailey’s two uncles corroborated that story but police are not releasing information about any polygraph tests at this time.

http://cbs7.com/news/details.asp?ID=23234

The standard is LE never releases info about who took a poly or if they passed or failed.
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  #44  
Old 01-06-2011, 07:16 AM
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How would Hailey's uncle and brother know that SA refused to take a poly on Wednesday; did the police tell them? Did the uncle and brother see SA walk out of the polygraph room stating SA refused the poly?

Did Hailey's brother take a poly?
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  #45  
Old 01-06-2011, 07:24 AM
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New article that has a little bit more info:

(Snipped)


Quote:
The center of the investigation appeared to be the Dunn household at the corner of 18th and Chestnut in Colorado City, where the Texas Rangers combed through Hailey’s room and searched the backyard.

With cooperation and assistance from Colorado City Police, the Rangers opened a backyard shed and searched other parts of the property for details.

The Texas Ranger investigators declined interview requests with CBS 7 but Hailey’s mother, Billie Dunn, said the Rangers were looking for any clues or signs that might point out where Hailey went.

Wednesday afternoon Billie told CBS 7 that her boyfriend, Shawn Adkins, was with authorities taking a polygraph test.

City Manager Pete Kampfer said he heard the same thing but that he could not confirm the information.


However, at about 8:00pm, Hailey’s older brother David told our CBS 7 crew that Shawn had refused to take two polygraph tests Wednesday.

David says that Shawn signed the paperwork to take a third but then refused to take it and left the building.

According to David, the Dunn family and police had not seen Shawn since that last polygraph refusal.

Hailey’s two uncles corroborated that story but police are not releasing information about any polygraph tests at this time.

Hailey’s uncle Dale says he took a polygraph test and passed it and added that Billie may have taken one Wednesday night as well.

As of 8:00pm Wednesday night, Billie Jean Dunn was not at her home and her family believed she was in downtown Colorado City with law enforcement authorities.
http://www.cbs7.com/news/details.asp?ID=23234
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Old 01-06-2011, 07:42 AM
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I was thinking about this last night, it probably does not mean squat, but still. So the uncle and the dad had poly's. They either tried or did poly Sa. All this talk about poly's and not mention of whether they gave Mom one, I wonder if they did? Errr.....just saw where they say she might have taken one Wed. evening.
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Old 01-06-2011, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by tehcloser View Post
I was thinking about this last night, it probably does not mean squat, but still. So the uncle and the dad had poly's. They either tried or did poly Sa. All this talk about poly's and not mention of whether they gave Mom one, I wonder if they did? Errr.....just saw where they say she might have taken one Wed. evening.
Based on the article I quoted on the
first page
, they did give him one and that's what led to the searches. I don't know which is more reliable - that article or the relatives saying he refused ALL three...

But it would sure be to his advantage to have it cleared up if he DID take a poly: all of these refusals have sent the public/media into a frenzy. Guilty or not, if you're tried/convicted in the public eye, then that can take a long time to go away. Not saying that the refusals are needed for folks to be inclined to think he's guilty - I think many people lean in that direction anyway - but those refusals sure will seal the deal for most folks. All just MOO.
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Old 01-06-2011, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by tehcloser View Post
I was thinking about this last night, it probably does not mean squat, but still. So the uncle and the dad had poly's. They either tried or did poly Sa. All this talk about poly's and not mention of whether they gave Mom one, I wonder if they did? Errr.....just saw where they say she might have taken one Wed. evening.
I saw that in the article to where they "might" have given her one, but no clarification on that. My guess is that her alibi is the strongest of all of them. She was at work when Hailey was last seen by the neighbor and SA, which should be able to be verified easily. She apparently was without a car there too, because SA picked her up from work, so no quick trips home for lunch. Maybe, that is why they don't seem in a hurry to polygraph her. Who knows for sure though (just a random guess on my part), it seems they do things in general at a different pace there than what we are use to in larger cities in these types of cases.
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Old 01-06-2011, 08:36 AM
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Calling all locals---Please let mom and dad know how much we are praying for them and how much we care. I always get attached to the missing kids but Billie has struck a chord in me and I am so worried about her. Same with dad- he looks just lost. And, if the BF did anything to Hailey mom is going to totally lose it.
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Old 01-06-2011, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patty G View Post
How would Hailey's uncle and brother know that SA refused to take a poly on Wednesday; did the police tell them? Did the uncle and brother see SA walk out of the polygraph room stating SA refused the poly?

Did Hailey's brother take a poly?
Good point Patty G. The article did not clarify whether they got that information from the police or BO or somewhere else. I guess that can put another twist on it that I wasn't thinking of before...is it reliable? You'd think it would be coming from three different family members. If not, why would these three lie? Or, have they just been misinformed? If so, by who?

Also, is this information more reliable than the other article where a reporter states that SA did take the poly on Wednesday? Who knows....you'd like to think that family can get more information than a reporter, but sometimes they have sources for info the family doesn't, I guess.

I lean towards the family's information being the most reliable in this situation, but I can easily see how someone else would find the opposite more reliable for many reasons. There is definitely two sides to every coin.
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