Was Burke a Victim of Sexual Abuse?

[BlueCrab]

Strong forensic evidence exists that JonBenet Ramsey had been chronically sexually abused. The question to answer, of course, is by WHOM? The list of possible suspects able to get to JonBenet multiple times would be very limited. So could it have been Burke who had been molesting JonBenet?

It's generally known that when children have been sexually abused, they often will later become sexual abusers themselves. But what evidence is there that Burke had ever been sexually abused?

Circumstantial evidence of sexual abuse to Burke having occurred does exist, although it is not strong. It exists in the form of written correspondence to a private party, a copy of which is reportedly in the hands of the police, but has never been released. I saw a copy of the correspondence, which has been cautiously circulated, and read it myself.

The correspondence states that Burke may have been sexually abused as a toddler, and it could have led to why at age 3 he would sit on the floor and openly play with himself. Patsy reportedly allowed him to continue so as not to "stigmatize" him. Also, Nedra reportedly had said that Burke was "mature" for his age.

The correspondence stated that Burke liked to be alone or with only one other person at a time. He particularly liked Aunt Pam and when he was with her he would order anyone else who entered the room to get out.

The correspondence revealed the early suspected molestation may have been the result of a close non-family member regularly treating toddler Burke by massaging him for an "itch" caused by circumcision. The family of the person reportedly doing the massaging, according to the correspondence, allegedly has an extensive history of child molestation, although the Ramseys were not aware of this history at the time.

If the information in this correspondence is credible, then it appears that Burke could have been a victim of child sexual abuse, and therefore a possible incest perpetrator.

But it's all JUST MY OPINION based on the information I read in the correspondence (the existence of which can be verified by one or two others in this forum and elsewhere).

BlueCrab

[sissi]

May I inquire into how long a circumcision would itch? Healing occurs within days,are you implying that he wasn't circumcised at birth but as a toddler? I don't like this story, it reminds me of similar garbage concerning mother's who nurse their sons. IMO

[Jayelles]

My son was circumcised at the age of two, but there were no problems that I recall.

I've had two caesareans and recall itching both times from the stitches healing. I think it started 3-4 days after surgery and continued for a week or so. I'm working this out from a letter I wrote after I had my first caesarean in which I commented about the itching.

[Arielle]

Was the family with the history of sexual abuse who had the person who may have abused Burke still friends with the Ramseys at the time of the murder? Would it have been possible for this person or someone from this family to have been involved in sexual abuse of JonBenet? I assume that for legal reasons, the names of these people can't be named, so I just ask if these folks were still around in the "circle".

[BlueCrab]

Originally Posted by Arielle

Was the family with the history of sexual abuse who had the person who may have abused Burke still friends with the Ramseys at the time of the murder? Would it have been possible for this person or someone from this family to have been involved in sexual abuse of JonBenet? I assume that for legal reasons, the names of these people can't be named, so I just ask if these folks were still around in the "circle".

Arielle,

The answers are NO, and NO, and NO.

JMO

[Ivy]

The possibility of Burke having had sexual contact with JonBenet doesn't hinge on whether Burke had been sexually abused when he was a baby or toddler. It is common for boys around the age Burke was when JonBenet died to experiment with sex by playing "doctor" and the like with girls (and sometimes other boys), even their own siblings.

Two excerpts from the Globe Nov 24, 1998:

Shortly after the call and immediately after his attorney friend Mike Bynum told John to get legal
counsel for himself and Patsy, Burke's dad took the boy into a room for a private meeting.
Sources say Burke played "doctor" with JonBenet and, according to other sources, showed signs of being
disturbed when he smeared feces in his bathroom. Injuries to JonBenet's genitals were consistent with
her being molested by a finger, rather than a penis, say sources, something that experts say might be done
by a prepubescent boy.

~~~

One scenario discussed by investigators is that Burke and JonBenet - who, as sources recently told GLOBE, were sometimes caught playing doctor by house guests - were using a garrote in a "choking game" that went too far.

~~~

I recall reading somewhere early in the case that Linda Hoffman Pugh, the housekeeper, saw the two children under the sheets in Burke's bed on at least one occasion and suspected something sexual was going on. Another time, LHP walked into Burkes bedroom to put some clean clothes into his chest of drawers and Burke and JonBenet were in a blanket tent on the floor. Burke yelled at LHP, "GET OUT!"

imo

[VespaElf]

If I recall correctly in PMPT Hedra was known for making,on more than one occasion,some innapropriate and bizarre coments in regard to Burke's genitals and their size.



BC,
Im aware of the letter you speak of and I too belive it to be legit.
Theres some interesting comments in regard to this subject archived on FFJ.

[BlueCrab]

Originally Posted by sissi

May I inquire into how long a circumcision would itch? Healing occurs within days,are you implying that he wasn't circumcised at birth but as a toddler?

Sissi,

The implication by the writer of the correspondence was that the "itch" from the circumcision was merely a ridiculous excuse by the non-family member to massage Burke's private part, and had apparently gone on for some time. This whole alleged episode occurred while the Ramseys lived in Atlanta, prior to moving to Boulder.

JMO

[AbigailCrane]

Jane Stobie reported Nedra often bragged about Burke's genital size.

JS: "I was sent to Atlanta to manage the supplies division of the company and that division had been headed by Patsy's mother for a number of years. I think it was a nice little business for the family but when Lockheed came to take over Access, they didn't want Patsy's...the family relationships became more difficult, they wanted to do something about the nepotism. I was sent to Atlanta to close the facilities so Nedra and Polly worked for me. That's when I really saw the red flags. That's when my own background with child abuse, that's when I really saw the red flags".

Mame: "Were they obviously immediatley disfunctional appearing...er, dysfunctional to you"?


JS: "Yes. Absolutely. I had been warned about taking that job from a number of people, including my boss. They said 'watch out for Nedra, she's really mean' - a lot of people had experiences with her at Access Graphics. She just, she goes into rage".

Mame: "Did she (go into rages)"?
JS: "Yes. I personally experienced it. I'll never forget this one day she came to my office, closed the door and it was like a scene from the Exorcist. I started to pray immediately. She came after me with such venom"...

Mame: "Now, and even then, did you pick up from her, possible sexual abuse going on".

JS: "I think one of the amazing things was, and this was not told to me directly, it was told to a group of employees there, Nedra and one of her employees were talking to several empoyees about the size of Burke's"...
http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/02112000mameinterviewjanestobie.htm

eeeww, Nedra is a flowers in the attic type of mother/grandmother.

[BrotherMoon]

If the history of this family was ever detailed, I think Nedra would be found to be the locus of the etiology of dysfunction.

[sissi]

Right! Jane Stobie was "right on". Heck she knows from her own background of abuse how to spot an abuser! The fact that she could channel Jonbenet was just the neatest gift one could have! She knows who killed Jonbenet for sur'.
Her background at Access was impeccable, everyone just loved her! Yep, if ever ya got yourself some good information it's now!

[Ivy]

Nedra may have been flamboyant with what some might consider unorthodox ideas, but I don't think the Paughs were an unusually dysfunctional family. Most of the familes I know could be called dysfunctional in one way or another, including mine. Maybe even especially mine.

(OT) By the way, BrotherMoon...Watson and Crick were not plagiarists. Even though in England it was considered wrong to work on someone else’s pet project without an invitation, in the U.S. and France it wasn't. Watson, an American, wasn't as bound by this progress-stifling social rule as Crick. At that time, the main DNA research was being done by Maurice Wilkins. His King’s College associate, Rosalind Franklin, and he clashed continually and never collaborated. Apparently Wilkins considered women inferior to men in the scientific field, which means he was a jerk. Be that as it may, Wilkins was in favor of turning over the research to other parties because he couldn't work with Franklin. This gave Watson and Crick the opportunity to begin to develop and build DNA structural models. Franklin came very close to solving the DNA structure, but they beat her to it. However, when Wilkins published his work in Nature, Franklin's work was published in an accompanying article.

[BrotherMoon]

Originally Posted by Ivy

Nedra may have been flamboyant with what some might consider unorthodox ideas, but I don't think the Paughs were an unusually dysfunctional family. Most of the familes I know could be called dysfunctional in one way or another, including mine. Maybe even especially mine.

(OT) By the way, BrotherMoon...Watson and Crick were not plagiarists. Even though in England it was considered wrong to work on someone else’s pet project without an invitation, in the U.S. and France it wasn't. Watson, an American, wasn't as bound by this progress-stifling social rule as Crick. At that time, the main DNA research was being done by Maurice Wilkins. His King’s College associate, Rosalind Franklin, and he clashed continually and never collaborated. Apparently Wilkins considered women inferior to men in the scientific field, which means he was a jerk. Be that as it may, Wilkins was in favor of turning over the research to other parties because he couldn't work with Franklin. This gave Watson and Crick the opportunity to begin to develop and build DNA structural models. Franklin came very close to solving the DNA structure, but they beat her to it. However, when Wilkins published his work in Nature, Franklin's work was published in an accompanying article.

It was not their creative vision, pure and simple, it was someone else's.
Work is one thing, vision another.

[Ivy]

Of course it was their creative vision, silly. Who do you think they were, a couple of lawnmower repairmen looking for something to do on the side?

[BlueCrab]

Originally Posted by AbigailCrane

Jane Stobie reported Nedra often bragged about Burke's genital size.

JS: "I think one of the amazing things was, and this was not told to me directly, it was told to a group of employees there, Nedra and one of her employees were talking to several empoyees about the size of Burke's"...

Abigail,

Here's how Larry Schiller described it in Perfect Murder - Perfect Town. On page 264 of PMPT pb:

"Stobie found the Atlanta office totally unprofessional. There was pageant literature everywhere. Polly spent a lot of the day screaming at her husband. Stobie overheard conversations about oral sex and discussions between Nedra and some employees about the size of Burke's penis when he was born."

JMO

[Ivy]

That's disgusting, but what does it have to do with the possiblity that Burke had been sexually abused?

But I can make a connection between Nedra's vulgar remarks about Burke's genitalia to AG employees and Burke possibly having sexual encounters with JonBenet. Burke may have learned early on that he'd always been well endowed and became obsessed with his "manhood" and wanted to experiment.

imo

[BlueCrab]

Originally Posted by Ivy

One scenario discussed by investigators is that Burke and JonBenet - who, as sources recently told GLOBE, were sometimes caught playing doctor by house guests - were using a garrote in a "choking game" that went too far.

Ivy,

This suggested "choking game" scenario is supported by the erotic asphyxiation device found wrapped around JonBenet's neck.

EA involves increasing the intensity of the orgasm by restricting oxygen and blood to the brain with a ligature around the neck as one person masturbates the other person. The person who is masturbating the other person usually maintains complete control of the tightness of the ligature by the use of a handle on the rope device. The person who is being masturbated has his/her hands tied behind to prevent involuntarily grabbing at the ligature, thus ruining the enhanced orgasm, as the body tries to save itself from asphyxiation.

IMO, this is how JonBenet was accidentally asphyxiated. The children were inexperienced in the use of the EA device, which is a highly dangerous technique when practiced even by teens and adults. The FBI estimates that erotic asphyxiation (practiced by two people) and autoerotic asphyxiation (practiced solo) accidentally kills 500 to 1,000 people each year. Statistics are hard to verify accurately because embarrassed families usually try to hide the real cause of death.

JMO

[twizzler333]

Do children that age have orgasms? Do they know what one is? My kids are just now learning that there is indeed something to the reason why adults choose to have sex, but they don't seem to have a concept on what an orgasm actually is or how it is caused exactly. I understand children "play doctor" and are curious doing things like that but they really should have no clue about erotic junk and orgasms, not at the ages they were. Maybe I am just clueless to what kids know nowadays, but this seems a bit much IMO. I don't even know much about this autoerotic whatchamacallit junk and I am almost 40!

[Txswthrt5]

Originally Posted by BrotherMoon

It was not their creative vision, pure and simple, it was someone else's.
Work is one thing, vision another.

However, History shows that they are the ones who patented the idea, thus...to the victor go the spoils.

[VespaElf]

Originally Posted by twizzler333

Do children that age have orgasms? Do they know what one is? My kids are just now learning that there is indeed something to the reason why adults choose to have sex, but they don't seem to have a concept on what an orgasm actually is or how it is caused exactly. I understand children "play doctor" and are curious doing things like that but they really should have no clue about erotic junk and orgasms, not at the ages they were. Maybe I am just clueless to what kids know nowadays, but this seems a bit much IMO. I don't even know much about this autoerotic whatchamacallit junk and I am almost 40!

While children before purberty can not have orgasms ,touching etc will "feel good"(which ,may I add,is further confusing to them if they are being molested).
I dont belive children need to know what an orgasm is and most children do not but if I child is a victim of sexual abuse they far more than any child should.

There is a big difference between "playing doctor" and child on child sexual abuse (which is ,from my expirence,widely underreported)


The asphyxiation is a "learned behavior".

Let's say for instance Burke was molested(not saying he was,this is a "what if").
His molester was into asphyxiation and taught Burke .
Buke then 'practiced' this on JBR and 'taught' her.


I dont have anything in front of me supporting but if I remember correctly from what Ive read I belive the asphyxiation causes a "high" of sorts (not as intense as it is during orgasm) but there would be a sensation .

[nellicat]

I agree that Burke may have been abusing his sister, but the "evidence" that he himself was abused is ridiculous. Lots of little boys play openly with their penises, or they would unless an adult told them not to. My 4 year old has his hands in his pants all the time until we remind him to wait until he's somewhere private, and I can say with 100 percent certainty that he has never been sexually abused!

Regarding whether pre-pubescent children have orgasms: yes, they do, sometimes. I can vividly recall getting "that feeling" and having an orgasm from climbing/rubbing against the swingset, LOL. It wasn't until puberty hit that I connected those feelings with anything sexual. Similarly, many boys will have "dry" orgasms without ejaculation occurring until puberty.

Sheesh. Children are sexual creatures - they explore themselves and, sometimes, other children. That doesn't mean they were sexually abused by anyone else!

[BlueCrab]

Originally Posted by messiecake

I dont have anything in front of me supporting but if I remember correctly from what Ive read I belive the asphyxiation causes a "high" of sorts (not as intense as it is during orgasm) but there would be a sensation .

Messiecake,

You are partly correct. Breath control games can give a person a sexual high. One bizarre example of this is when a man is hanged, in death he will sometimes have an erection.

However, in EA and AEA the goal is to enhance the orgasm while masturbating.

JMO

[Ivy]

BlueCrab... Some years ago on the JusticeWatch forum, a couple of posters from Boulder who had young kids in elementary school said that around the time JonBenet died, kids were playing "choking games" at school. (I wonder if this was investigated by the BPD. Probably not.) I don't recall if the posters elaborated by saying the games were EA games. Do you know anything about choking games being played at Boulder elementary schools at that time?

imo

[BlueCrab]

Originally Posted by BlueCrab

It's generally known that when children have been sexually abused, they often will later become sexual abusers themselves.

CORRECTION

I was wrong about this. After Ivy challenged me, I researched the subject and found that most male victims of sexual assault DO NOT become sexual offenders later in life.

From the National Center for PTSD; FACT SHEET, by Julia M. Whealin, Ph.D.:

"ARE MEN WHO WERE SEXUALLY ASSAULTED AS CHILDREN MORE LIKELY TO BECOME CHILD MOLESTERS?"

In the article Dr. Whealin says:

"Another myth that male victims of sexual assault face is the assumption that they will become abusers themselves..... However, it is important to know that most male victims of child sexual abuse DO NOT become sex offenders."

JMO

[Ivy]

Interesting, BC. Thanks for posting that. It comes as a surprise to me.

Btw, I didn't challenge you. I was just askin'.