What came first the Chicken or the Egg?

[TressaRing28]

What came first the blow to the head or the garrotte?

My opinion is that if Burke was good for the crime, then the garrotte was used in sexual play that went to far, and the blow to the head came out of fear. Jon Benet screamed during the sex play hence, Melody Stanton hearing the child scream.(PMPT) Then Patsy hears something like Burke coming back to bed since there 3rd floor bedroom was right over Burkes room.(PMPT AND POLICE FILES) She comes down discovers JB and writes the note as John sleeps...

If it was a accident by Patsy hitting JB or JB falling down stairs then the Blow came first... the sexual cover-up and staging was an automatic responce to the fear of being caught.

If indeed John was involved after the fact, and Burke was the perp, then he would dictate to Patsy what to write in the note. Regardless I do conceed the fact that Patsy wrote that long long RN.

If John was the perp and was having sick sex with JB then the garotte came first and,Blow to the head later. If Patsy found out then in my humble opinion the blow came from Patsy by accident as she tried to hit John.
Then She and John constructed the note...

So what came first the Chicken or the Egg?

Opinions please ?

[BlueCrab]

Originally Posted by TressaRing28

What came first the blow to the head or the garrotte?

Tressa,

The autopsy report implies the ligature strangulation came first:

"Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma."

Petechial hemorrhages above and below the tightened ligature on the neck, and petechial hemorrhages on the eyelids, would not have been able to occur if she had already been dead from the head blow. The heart had to be pumping to cause the blocked blood at the neck to form the numerous tiny hemorrhages.

JMO

[twizzler333]

Agree BlueCrab. I would think there is a high probability that the strangulation occurred first.

BUT, what does it matter? I guess being that this case has been going on all these years and it hasn't really mattered whatsoever in solving the crime, I guess it really doesn't matter now. It certainly is not worth arguing over since we really don't know who committed the crime. Maybe one day when they get a clue and really do some investigating on this crime it will matter then.

[TLynn]

I think that's an unknown element. The coroner puts them together.

The blow to the head may have knocked her unconscious and the ligature was the cause of death. I know it's been stated that, if that were the case, asphixiation had to come fast due to the amount of bleeding in the brain.

If JonBenet were asphixiated first - would the brain still bleed and swell?

[Ivy]

I think that the strangulation and head blow happened very close together. The cord was yanked hard. JonBenet was struck on the head to immobilize her. The cord was yanked hard again and held taut.

There were two ridges on her neck where the cord had been. The above scenario could explain it.

imo

[TressaRing28]

Originally Posted by BlueCrab

Tressa,

The autopsy report implies the ligature strangulation came first:

"Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma."

Petechial hemorrhages above and below the tightened ligature on the neck, and petechial hemorrhages on the eyelids, would not have been able to occur if she had already been dead from the head blow. The heart had to be pumping to cause the blocked blood at the neck to form the numerous tiny hemorrhages.

JMO

Hi Blue Crab, your so smart about this case thanks for responding

[BrotherMoon]

Originally Posted by TressaRing28

Hi Blue Crab, your so smart about this case thanks for responding

High praise BC. Too bad it didn't come from an under age male, you might get a boner.

[twizzler333]

Why do we have to be so mean???? My goodness, a precious angel was murdered and all we can do is jab at each other???? I know I have my days when I want to scream at some of the comments here, but I have to regain my "senses", take a deep breath, whatever.....c'mon guys, let's try kindness for a bit. It is okay to disagree. If the truth's known, we are all wrong anyway.

[BlueCrab]

Originally Posted by BrotherMoon

High praise BC. Too bad it didn't come from an under age male, you might get a boner.

EVERYONE,

Please do not respond to BrotherMoon's posts unless he wants to honestly discuss the JonBenet case. He's apparently trying to destroy the WS JonBenet forum with his lengthy off-subject posts that boost his inflated ego and tear down everyone else. Thanks.

BlueCrab

[TressaRing28]

Originally Posted by BlueCrab

EVERYONE,

Please do not respond to BrotherMoon's posts unless he wants to honestly discuss the JonBenet case. He's apparently trying to destroy the WS JonBenet forum with his lengthy off-subject posts that boost his inflated ego and tear down everyone else. Thanks.

BlueCrab

No problem Blue ,

I was just wanting to hear informed opinions


Tressa

[TressaRing28]

Originally Posted by TLynn

I think that's an unknown element. The coroner puts them together.

If JonBenet were asphixiated first - would the brain still bleed and swell?

Very good point Tlynn---

[BlueCrab]

Originally Posted by TLynn

If JonBenet were asphixiated first - would the brain still bleed and swell?

TLynn,

There was no bleeding of the brain. The two teaspoons of blood found on the brain was a normal amount of residual blood.

There was no swelling of the brain.

JMO

[K777angel]

Here is what Dr. Henry Lee said about it:

"They also found that JonBenet had sustained a very powerful blow to the head, which though it did not cause external bleeding, caused intracerebral bleeding that would quickly prove fatal. They could not determine if the head blow preceeded the garroting with scientific certainty , though the head blow, in all probability, had come first . Since the head wound was fully developed, this meant that the victim had survived for a period of time."

Also: "In fact, no one at the bureau had ever seen a child garrotted after being fatally wounded with a blow to the head."

Also, concerning the DNA, he writes:

"CBI investigators continued to wrestle with the weak and contaminated DNA samples taken from under the victim's fingernails and determined these samples could not provide accurate findings ."

He says:

"I had told the district attorney that there was a distinct possibility that JonBenet Ramsey had been accidentally killed by someone in her family and that the family had panicked and had decided to stage a cover-up to avoid anyone getting into terrible trouble."

Regarding the fibers found on JonBenet:

"...the black fibers found on the duct tape, JonBenet's body, the white blanket, and the floor of the wine cellar." (There were also "red" fibers found on the tape with the black fibers)

He also states that "Since the rope and abrasion ran around her neck in an even fashion, there was no real evidence of any kind of struggle."

[TLynn]

Since the head wound was fully developed, this meant that the victim had survived for a period of time."

Wonder what "period of time" means...10 mins. / 30 mins. / Hour ...?

It just computes in my brain that - a severe accidental head injury, without revival, and assumed death would result in a staged crime scene (to cover for the original crime of sexual molestation by the guilty party).

Would her heartbeat and breathing slow down (to what could've appeared to be death)?

Because if JonBenet died from AEA strangulation - why the head blow? Everything done to her was "gentle" - except for the severe head injury.

[TressaRing28]

Originally Posted by TLynn

Since the head wound was fully developed, this meant that the victim had survived for a period of time."

Wonder what "period of time" means...10 mins. / 30 mins. / Hour ...?

It just computes in my brain that - a severe accidental head injury, without revival, and assumed death would result in a staged crime scene (to cover for the original crime of sexual molestation by the guilty party).

Tlynn, the period of time could have been 10 minutes. Stage the crime Garrote , Molest the body with broken Paintbrush,wipe the body down.

But, the RN took a while to write , espically if Patsy wrote it with her left hand . I would say at least an hour or longer.

I am of the opinion that JB was hidden behind the Freezer in the broiler room to start with.Hence,the smell of decay from the warm room--- Later John moved body to the wine cellar before police got there or when he went down to basement between 9-11. Just a thought...