IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #4

[VeryVeritas]

Originally Posted by jjenny

If she called DR at 4:15 am, it would have been from JR's apartment using JR's phone, so she couldn't have possibly been screaming on the street at that time.

The reports I read about the scream said it was at around 4:30am. not 4:15

[Chili Fries]

Originally Posted by VeryVeritas

AFTER LEAVING JR's 4:15 to 4:30am:

NORTH? I see no reason for her to go that way at all.

WEST? No. It does not make sense that she would go west if JR just watched her walk east to 11th and N. College. And she would have no reason to go that direction at all.

EAST? I really don't see a reason for her to go down 11th either. If she were thinking she would go to Kilroys that late it would make sense to go down N. College first past Smallwood right? Is there any likely reason for her to go this way vs. South? Also JR said she was "rounding the corner" so South seems to be it if JR is truthful.

SOUTH? 2 paths... a) N. College - this is the way that JR says she went...
she could get to Kilroys or her apt. this way. Makes sense. However it is a well lit and very short distance to Smallwood. Some linkage back to the gravel parking lot behind 5 North exists correct? Is there not more than one way to get from N. College back to the gravel parking area?
b) Going back the way she came through the gravel parking lots behind 5 North and then (if she would have made it that far) through the alley.

Her keys and purse were in the area outside of the Alley where the gravel parking lots are located. She obviously didn't get them, nor to the Alley.
Since all directions except South do not make sense, it would seem she did not get more than 1 block away (if she ever left) 5 North. So to me 3 possibilities emerge: A) LS vanished on N. College on the East side of the street B) LS vanished on her way to the Alley perhaps in the gravel parking area or C) LS was taken out of the apts alive or dead in some other manner.

Do you see anything that could rule any of these 3 possibilities out?

Someone in the first thread brought up another possibility...that Lauren headed to another destination after JR last saw her. She could have gone to see somebody else she knew in the area or maybe even saw a kid or kids hanging out and went to talk to them. There are houses along College, somebody could have been sitting outside at the end of a late night and started up a conversation with her then invited her in.

[VeryVeritas]

Originally Posted by Btown

That about sums it up all right, if JR's statement is accurate.

There are 3 primary ways to get to the alley from her location. She would have to backtrack to get to one of them, if JR's story is accurate.
One way would show up on camera.

The one furthest to the South would show up on a cam correct? And since she didn't show up, that one would be ruled out, right?

How would inacurracy JR's statement (even it were made up) change things?

[VeryVeritas]

Originally Posted by Btown

Actually I mis-stated that it had a smoked dome. I was thinking of the one at Smallwood. Sorry Guys.

There are 2 cameras at 10th & College Apartments on the West side of College. Neither one points at the sidewalk or the street. You can barely get glimpses of the sidewalk in daylight.

IDK if LE's mentioned it.

What do they point at if not the sidewalk or the street?

Even in low light conditions if these cams were active they might pick up a passing shadow or change in lighting condition for example someone or a vehicle's headlights passing by. If there was a struggle that shadow would appear different than someone even staggering along at a fairly even pace.
Seems to me the cams could be tested at night to see if they would show any glimpse of change in lighting as someone passes by on the sidewalk.
That could rule in or out that someone/something passed by vs. nothing passed by. If nothing passed by, she didn't get that far.

[VeryVeritas]

Originally Posted by Chili Fries

Someone in the first thread brought up another possibility...that Lauren headed to another destination after JR last saw her. She could have gone to see somebody else she knew in the area or maybe even saw a kid or kids hanging out and went to talk to them. There are houses along College, somebody could have been sitting outside at the end of a late night and started up a conversation with her then invited her in.

I'm sorry, so what direction would that be? You mean South, right?
In Btown's photos it looked like there were only 2 houses on N. College that fit your description, one of them is vacant right? Is there any report of who lives in the other one? After that is a Dr's office.

[VeryVeritas]

Dogs... should have been able to determine if she went down N. College or not. They might still be able to confirm that actually. I recall that over a week ago that LE had dogs over in that area, so LE should know if she was on N. College or not.

[VeryVeritas]

Does Waffle House have a cam? And I mean Inside... seems like the people who were in the Waffle House prior to 4:30 may have been out on N. College around that time.

[ncbuckeyecb]

Originally Posted by VeryVeritas

Dogs... should have been able to determine if she went down N. College or not. They might still be able to confirm that actually. I recall that over a week ago that LE had dogs over in that area, so LE should know if she was on N. College or not.

Thought I read on one of these threads that at a PC the police confirmed they had used dogs but had "negative" results? Not sure if I'm remembering that right...

[clover]

I've been catching up with all these threads and find myself with so many questions. I am doing my best to think about this case from the perspective of someone who may have "had a few too many," because I've been there myself, regrettably.

Some thoughts:

- Has a description of LS's shoes been released? It's not uncommon for cute shoes (heels, strappy, etc.) to feel good at the start of the night but hurt like heck after walking/dancing in them for a bit. She may have initially taken her shoes off because they were hurting her feet and then felt temporary relief to be barefoot. She may have even left the shoes with a bartender or misplaced them in the bar, then decided to just go with the bare feet option or forgotten the shoes due to her possibly altered state.

- Thank you for the terrific scene photos and descriptions from locals. In looking at that Congress sidewalk, I see uneven and crushed portions all along that street's sidewalk. Those would be misery in the dark, with bare feet. You mentioned that certain blocks had closed lanes that are now open - is it possible that LS opted to walk in the street along those closed sections (or even "open" sections of the street?) Since those formerly closed sections are now open, they must have been close to completion, and my bare feet would prefer smooth newly-laid asphalt to cracked, darkened sidewalks any day. Also, it's possible the light was better in the street than the sidewalk. If cameras were trained on the sidewalk, and she walked in the street, would they miss her?

- In her possibly impaired state, might she have accepted a ride from a stranger(s), especially since her feet likely hurt considerably? A friend and I did this in college while stumbling back to our campus intoxicated, and to this day I can't believe we did such a dangerous thing.

- It sounds like relationship drama was going on that night. Alcohol plus relationship havoc can make a fun night get ugly fast and cause people to do things they might not normally do, fueled by heightened emotionality and lowered inhibitions. It seems like so many things that night make no sense in the light of day - but the participants were likely in various states of intoxication. Add "love issues" to the mix, and any semblance of rational decision-making can go out the window. It's hard to make sense out of a lot of these things because they may have happened when people weren't thinking very calmly and sensibly at all.

I am keeping Lauren and her family in my thoughts and am hoping for new developments soon. Perhaps the ideas being put forth on this forum will spur some new or further investigations.

[looksbetterinred]

I've got to learn to read ALL the posts before I comment. What was posted here, was covered.

[Surly Sasha]

I think Waffle House has a camera inside the door but I'll have to double-check. I agree with Btown that, now that this has happened and forced me to notice, it's strange how few cameras are on a main street compared to an alley. Perhaps the assumption was that a main street, being better populated, wouldn't need it?

I kind of have a couple of schools of thought at this point (assuming LE covered the bases of dumpsters and whatnot, which I don't really want to give the benefit of the doubt on but given the huge amount of searchers I feel somewhat comfortable assuming it was all looked at):

JR or JW did something to her and maybe put her body in one of the abandoned houses in the area around Crestmont/12th Street. I don't think they would have an intimate knowledge of rural Bloomington, which leaves out the quarries (hard to navigate in the dark, besides) or forests/fields (Behrman and Grubb were both left in cornfields but both were done, allegedly, by locals). But since she hasn't been found by ground or arial searchers it makes me think she's inside somewhere. I hate to be indiscreet but we had some crazy hot and humid days last week.

That would also be my idea if some street person (homeless or otherwise) happened upon her.

Either of the above would have had a limited amount of time. I got up at 6 am and it was light enough.

If she was taken by some other local she could be anywhere. Morgan Monroe, Yellowwood forest, Greene County, quarries...true needle in a haystack.

It has been storming this morning and it breaks my heart, thinking of how her mother must feel, knowing LS is may be out in the rain.

Someone asked earlier if someone could have recently been released from prison...I don't know. There are some coincidences between Behrman and Spierer--both disappeared the same week (11 years apart) and the Fun Frolic was in town both times. I honestly believe Crystal Grubb was killed by the men she went into the woods with and haven't looked for a link between Grubb and Spierer.

[TonyGatto]

When I receive a phone call and the caller's name appears -- I'm going to presume that it is that person -- unless there is irrefutable evidence that it's someone else. Just sayin.

[sherryannhartman]

I'm at a regional campus now, where I work. I don't believe I know any of them or that my friends do. Most out of state students kinda stick together, so my current friends in bloomington prob wouldnt know much about them.

[sherryannhartman]

Trying to catch up from yesterday, but I had a thought.
When I was at IU, Jill Behrman (sp?) went missing. She was riding her bike and it was thought she was hit by a car.
What if the car circling around hit Lauren? And that's why it doubled back around. In Northern Indiana, we just had a case like this where a drunk woman ran over a teenager (sadly left him for dead). Could be similar?
I assume that there would be more evidence, like blood. Unless all injuries would be internal.
Any thoughts on this? Do we have timing as to how long it took the car to drive by twice?

[sherryannhartman]

My experience with the homeless in bloomington is that many have alcohol or drug problems, but many are also very intelligent. I knew a few bc of friends when I was down there. Some even attended school and dropped out. So, yea there are problems. But if a few heard a scream, I'd believe it.

[sherryannhartman]

It's sort of normal for college kids to be out at all hours in Bloomington. Like I said previously, I did these things many times myself. It's a college town.

[sherryannhartman]

Originally Posted by ChuckMaureen

I sense a problem regarding LS allegedly having left her shoes and her cell phone at Kilroy's and her small purse and her apartment key in the alley.


Shoes:

• Kilroy's sports a huge dance floor.
• Dancing is the most-likely explanation why LS removed her shoes.
• There is no known explanation why LS did not replace her shoes to her feet upon leaving Kilroy's.
• If you are not wearing shoes, you know you are not wearing shoes. It is not like leaving behind a small cheap brooch.
• Was that common behavior exhibited by LS / at Kilroy's / anywhere?
• LS remembered to take her purse but not her shoes when she left Kilroy's?

Cell Phone:

• How did LS carry her cell phone that evening?
• It is possible but not likely LS was carrying the cell phone freely, in-hand.
• Was is it in the small purse, in a pocket, someone else carried it for her?
• Why was it not in the purse / on LS' person when she left Kilroy's?
• Did the cell phone location ping to cell tower(s) before and during while LS was at Kilroy's?
• Did LS or anyone else use LS' phone that evening / while at Kilroy's / after LS left Kilroy's?
• Did the cell phone location ping change after LS left Kilroy's?
• LS remembered to take her purse but not her cell phone when she left Kilroy's?
• Why was LS allegedly unaware of the location of her cell phone after she arrived to the apartment(s) after having left Kilroy's?

Purse / Key(s)

• Was LS carrying her purse / key(s) when she arrived to Kilroy's?
• Was LS carrying her purse / key(s) when she left Kilroy's?
• Was someone carrying LS purse for her when she left Kilroy's?
• When LS left the last friend's apartment to return to her own apartment did she have her purse / key(s)?
• When did LS lose track of her purse / key(s)?

I was also wondering where her shoes/phone were found. Were they outside in the patio? When were they found? That night or the next day? My thought was that if they were found the next day, could someone have taken them back there? I don't know why it makes me wonder so much!

[EllaMae]

Originally Posted by Ven

I agree, but not impossible. Even if I thought one of the POIs was the one, LE should still look at every possibility.

Originally Posted by sherryannhartman

My experience with the homeless in bloomington is that many have alcohol or drug problems, but many are also very intelligent. I knew a few bc of friends when I was down there. Some even attended school and dropped out. So, yea there are problems. But if a few heard a scream, I'd believe it.

I agree with you. LE has been known to use homeless people as informants also. They very often know what happens on the street. They know who belongs, and who's out of place, and they see things and hear things that other people don't notice.

[Btown]

Originally Posted by VeryVeritas

What do they point at if not the sidewalk or the street?

Facing South on the West side of College


Facing North on the West side of College

[sherryannhartman]

Originally Posted by Surly Sasha

Someone asked earlier if someone could have recently been released from prison...I don't know. There are some coincidences between Behrman and Spierer--both disappeared the same week (11 years apart) and the Fun Frolic was in town both times. I honestly believe Crystal Grubb was killed by the men she went into the woods with and haven't looked for a link between Grubb and Spierer.

The first thing I thought about was Behrman. Her case haunts me to this day. I was at IU when she was missing and remember hiking in the woods, wondering if I would happen upon her remains.
I watched a show recently about her, with updates as to who they arrested. I know many don't believe it was the guy implicated. I'm not sure I buy it either. I think LE needed to point the finger at someone, for closure.
What are the coincidences? That might be worth looking into. Both would have been on/near a road without many people around as witnesses. That would also take out any of her friends being responsible...

[Btown]

Originally Posted by VeryVeritas

Dogs... should have been able to determine if she went down N. College or not. They might still be able to confirm that actually. I recall that over a week ago that LE had dogs over in that area, so LE should know if she was on N. College or not.

The locals are saying the dogs had her trail, but lost her trail near the gravel parking lot. That is word of mouth info, not from LE or news orgs.
Take it with a grain of salt.

[jjenny]

Originally Posted by sherryannhartman

I was also wondering where her shoes/phone were found. Were they outside in the patio? When were they found? That night or the next day? My thought was that if they were found the next day, could someone have taken them back there? I don't know why it makes me wonder so much!

After she lost her shoes but before she went missing she was seen by a bunch of people, who clearly must have noticed she was not wearing shoes.
Even her "missing" flier says she was barefooted when she went missing.

[Btown]

BPD is trying to provide a map or visual aid that would give the public a better understanding of where Lauren was last seen on video the morning she disappeared. They hope to have that aid complete by Tuesday or Wednesday.

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81909

[looksbetterinred]

Statistically speaking, women are more likely to be murdered by an intimate or family member. Granted, there are more unknows than anything.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/gender.cfm

[raeann]

Originally Posted by jjenny

Police have found her shoes at the bar, so yes, she was walking around without shoes.

I think that it is possible that this is an assumption that MAY not be accurate. None of the people have mentioned that she had no shoes that we know of...not those involved in the altercation, or any of the three boys who saw her later. She may have inadvertently put on someone else's shoes since people were known to take them off near the sand area, and that person went home without shoes. She may have borrowed an extra pair of flip flop type shoes that someone else brought to the sand bar or she could have even brought extra ones herself in a small backpack. i haven't seen anything that said exactly where or in what her shoes and phone were found, so maybe they were together in some kind of a bag that was left behind at the bar. The keys and coin/id case were most likely on some kind of wrist strap and something she would keep with her rather than hang on a chair back or place under her table.

jmo