IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #9

[sv614]

I am EXTREMELY interested in finding out when Rosenbaum left and why.

1. What day did he leave?
2. Was he already planning on leaving on that day?

People know the answers to this. HT certainly knows.

[Gabby66]

very true jj. Good point about the lawyer. Was it then reported that one passed, and they just didn't say whom? Is that safe to assume the others FAILED? I have heard of people who take a LD test for "practice" - these aren't people who have committed and crimes but are being asked questions by the testers who are learning to administer the test. Apparently, people can fail the thing - even when answering simple questions truthfully, from what I've heard. But if they gave it to 4 boys and three fail, that's pretty darn telling, IF it happened.

[phantomthought]

Originally Posted by jjenny

Did LE actually say it was JR who saw her leave at 4:30, or did it all come from other people such as roommate and lawyers?

I do not think LE has said much about either of her trips to JR's.They go from her leaving smallwood to arriving and leaving Kilroy's back to smallwood to the last video in the alley.I think everything else comes from the lawyers and the roommate and the problem with her is other than them hanging out to 12:30 all of her info is second hand.Even the statement that LS and her bf were suppose to hang out that night was told to her by the bf the next day.

[ingra1327]

Originally Posted by Gabby66

very true jj. Good point about the lawyer. Was it then reported that one passed, and they just didn't say whom? Is that safe to assume the others FAILED? I have heard of people who take a LD test for "practice" - these aren't people who have committed and crimes but are being asked questions by the testers who are learning to administer the test. Apparently, people can fail the thing - even when answering simple questions truthfully, from what I've heard. But if they gave it to 4 boys and three fail, that's pretty darn telling, IF it happened.

All we know is that one prime person of interest passed a LD test, so I don't think we can assume that everyone else failed. And, like you said, false positives are somewhat common.

[bx2]

Originally Posted by ingra1327

All we know is that one prime person of interest passed a LD test, so I don't think we can assume that everyone else failed. And, like you said, false positives are somewhat common.

I tried to mention this earlier too so sorry for repeating, but I do think its quite possible that polygraph results are unknown. I find it suspicious that this was mentioned very briefly almost in passing, from only one source that I'm aware of (fox59). Until an identity is revealed, I'm hesitant to accept it.

[Gabby66]

I thought I'd also comment on the DNA samples. Some people were questioning why LE would take samples unless they have something against which to compare it. I believe DNA is just part of the evidence collection, though at this point I'd assume it's voluntary. If sadly, they were to discover a body say, 10 years from now, and within the next 10 years the guilty party was killed in a car accident, it would be a shame to not be able to tie him to the case, giving the family closure. I think it's probably just protocol, to collect from any POI who will willingly do so - why not?

[ally0x]

One thing that I find interesting is that she supposedly walked to 11th and College and turned the corner to walk down College back to her apartment. However, she got to JRs apartment complex by going a different route - through all the alleys, etc. And from looking at the map it would seem that she would have to actually walk past a path that she could have taken to start walking back to her apartment..the path she took to get there. I just find it weird that she would take a different route home than the one she took to get there. I am a college student as well, so putting myself in that mind frame, the only reason I would think to take an alternate route back to my room would be because it's faster. But it doesn't really look like that route is any faster than the other route. And also, being a college student, I think I would feel safer walking inbetween buildings (the "back way") rather than walking alone on a main road. Although thinking about it now, I don't think I would feel safe either way.

Basically, I'm speculating that JR is lying about LS leaving at 4:30 and going in the direction she did. IMO, I don't think she left that apartment complex alive.

[eqh]

Originally Posted by Jupiter812

LS's name is all over the TG article which we're now referring to as the 3:38 sighting which I think is a more accurate and objective way to describe it. This witness is sure it was LS? I talked to someone about this tonight and the person said in B-ton at that hour there is more than one petite blonde who is messed up out on the streets.

It just makes no sense that JR would claim 4:30 if she was taken off the street by someone else at 3:38 and he was not involved. As mentioned by others, this could have happened and she still could have wound up back at JR's house.

There's no way to know if the eyewitness testimony is accurate. Consider that this would have happened about 2 weeks before the eyewitness spoke to Gatto (how long before she spoke to police?), her brain is likely to fill in details or see things that didn't occur, even if she feels very confident. It very likely could have been some other person involved here.

[Lovejac]

This is why I'm not as suspicious of CR anymore.

http://www.indystar.com/article/2011...yssey=obinsite

Salzmann said a second altercation, at Rossman's building, took place a couple of days after Spierer went missing, when other students confronted Rossman. Salzmann would not elaborate.

He said police have searched his client's Jeep Grand Cherokee, credit card records and cellphone and that Rossman has cooperated with those searches.

[eqh]

Originally Posted by ally0x

One thing that I find interesting is that she supposedly walked to 11th and College and turned the corner to walk down College back to her apartment. However, she got to JRs apartment complex by going a different route - through all the alleys, etc. And from looking at the map it would seem that she would have to actually walk past a path that she could have taken to start walking back to her apartment..the path she took to get there. I just find it weird that she would take a different route home than the one she took to get there. I am a college student as well, so putting myself in that mind frame, the only reason I would think to take an alternate route back to my room would be because it's faster. But it doesn't really look like that route is any faster than the other route. And also, being a college student, I think I would feel safer walking inbetween buildings (the "back way") rather than walking alone on a main road. Although thinking about it now, I don't think I would feel safe either way.

Basically, I'm speculating that JR is lying about LS leaving at 4:30 and going in the direction she did. IMO, I don't think she left that apartment complex alive.

I would think that walking along College would be quicker, more direct, less hard on her feet and feel safer than walking down the alley. I think I've heard others say that alley is quite dark at that time.

I think a lot of us are on board with your speculation, though.

I think it is sort of odd they would have gone down the alley in the first place, especially considering that CR should have been reasonably worried about being jumped again -- are we sure they would have left from the front door of Smallwood on College, or through a back way?

I'm can't shake the feeling that something bad went down in that alley, and she might not have made it to 5 north under her own volition, if at all.

[Mophebius]

Hey all just got signed up again for websleuths and I'm pretty stoked to be here. I followed the Haines family murders here a few years back and hadn't been back since. I'd like to ask a couple questions and offer my own working theory on what may have happend to Lauren.
I am from the North West and we often times have moutain rescues etc. in this area. In some cases one of the tools used to help find lost or missing person's is to use the "ping's" from their cell phone movements. I understand being familiar with the case that Lauren left her cell phone at Kilroy's. What I'm wondering is has LE looked into the movements of the POI's based upon cellphone "ping's"? I know it isn't an exact technology and I am by no means an expert on it. I just know that in certain circumstances cell phone movements can be used to help find or significantly narrow down a search area. This could be extremely useful information in terms of alibi coroboration and or POI elimination if the perp or "perps" possessed or even used their cell phone's in and around the time of potentially the commision of a crime? I would love to see what JR and JW's (and their inner circle of friends) movements may have looked like that night. Again I know it's not an exact science, but could it could prove to be greatly helpful if LE could determine if some person or group traveled to an area near the time of Lauren's disappearance.
My personal hunch is that the answer to this case lies with JR or JW, potentially even the both of them. They are old frat buddies, I beleive 1 was graduating and the other was to be a senior at IU. I dont see them as outright killers, they neither one really profile as killers to me. Self Preservationists though? It certainly falls in-line with my opinion of them, that they would be capable of disposing of a body under a specific set of circumstances. I obviously dont know exactly what happend here, this is again just a working theory. My gut tells me that "something" happend, be it accidental death or overdose, as many people have suggested. I dont think we have a huge conspiracy group of people though that may be knowledgeable or responsible for the disposal of the body. I think this was pulled off by no more than 2 people. The fact that nobody has talked yet lends to my theory of 1 or 2 people involved in the disposal, once you get over 3 or more it gets sloppy...
I think LE has alot more info than they are divulging to the public. They may just be dotting i's and crossing t's at this point? I have a feeling that they are privately zero'd in on a small group of people and trying to figure out exactly what went down.
I also wanted to add that the body may not have been burried or hidden right away. Remember that Lauren wasn't reported missing until the afternoon of June 3rd. I think the key to cracking this case and finding Lauren, is determining the movements of these two small groups of people (JR/JW and crew) from 2am June 3rd to 2pm June 3rd. I really hope this is being worked on if it's a possible angle to the truth!

[jennyb629]

Originally Posted by Mophebius

I am from the North West and we often times have moutain rescues etc. in this area. In some cases one of the tools used to help find lost or missing person's is to use the "ping's" from their cell phone movements. I understand being familiar with the case that Lauren left her cell phone at Kilroy's. What I'm wondering is has LE looked into the movements of the POI's based upon cellphone "ping's"? I know it isn't an exact technology and I am by no means an expert on it. I just know that in certain circumstances cell phone movements can be used to help find or significantly narrow down a search area. This could be extremely useful information in terms of alibi coroboration and or POI elimination if the perp or "perps" possessed or even used their cell phone's in and around the time of potentially the commision of a crime? I would love to see what JR and JW's (and their inner circle of friends) movements may have looked like that night.

I also wanted to add that the body may not have been burried or hidden right away. Remember that Lauren wasn't reported missing until the afternoon of June 3rd. I think the key to cracking this case and finding Lauren, is determining the movements of these two small groups of people (JR/JW and crew) from 2am June 3rd to 2pm June 3rd. I really hope this is being worked on if it's a possible angle to the truth!

I have to say I totally agree...I hope they are checking/have checked all the PsOI cell phone 'pings'/records. This could be incredibly helpful. I'm kind of doubtful, unfortunately, that they have been able to check all of them since both JR and JW left town shortly after Lauren's disappearance and both retained really high-profile attorneys right away. We have barely seen anything in the MSM or in press conferences about information any of the PsOI have contributed but it seems like-out of all of Lauren's friends-JR and JW have offered the least in terms of cooperation with this case. I wish we could know for sure if LE has been able to check cell phone records and movements for these 2, who seem to me to be-if not responsible-at least knowledgeable about something that could be of help in solving this case.

Like you said, it also complicates things somewhat that whoever was involved had up to 12 hours to get rid of the body/evidence...that is kind of a long time and, assuming that this was something involving someone Lauren knew, apparently enough time even for a college student perp(s) who were intoxicated, freaked out/scared, meticulously trying to avoid cameras/spotting by potential witnesses, unfamiliar with surrounding rural areas, etc. to cover this up pretty well (I say 'apparently' since so little information has been found so far). But, since that 12 hours is such a long time, it would be so helpful to get the cell phone info for that time period to see if any of these PsOI were in locations that may indicate cover-up activities (a drugstore/place to buy cleaning supplies, gas station/ATM/etc. out of their normal area, or of course an actual location they may have left the body or other evidence). Perhaps they would have been smart enough to realize that they could be traced if they took their cell phone though and would have purposefully left it at home...but that could also be suspicious in itself as it would be odd for a college student(s) to go around all day w/o their phone...especially for JW since he would have supposedly been using his phone to try to reach Lauren that morning. Where did he make those unanswered calls to her from?

However, like someone on this board said before, the perp(s) most likely didn't know how much time he/she/they had--it was possible that someone else could have noticed that Lauren was missing earlier in the morning (one of her roommates, her bf if he was not involved in the disappearance, another friend, her parents, etc) so the perp(s) were no doubt still working as fast as possible, not knowing how long they would have to cover their tracks/hide evidence/a body. Grr, every time I start writing about this case I just get so frustrated with all the unknowns and twists and turns! I always wind up writing a lot more than I intended as well...

[Blythe]

Originally Posted by Rhyme & Reason

Right, but they didn't necessarily know they had 12 hours.

If they would be the one to report her missing they knew they had 12 hours or even more.

[webrocket]

pings are useless with Lauren's phone as it never left the bar or so we've been told.

[Mophebius]

I read on another site that CR and JW were no longer considered POI, can anyone else verify this to be true? I saw it in comments made today (6-22-11) on a news website, can't find the site right now, I think it was the Herald Tribune?

[Mophebius]

Originally Posted by webrocket

pings are useless with Lauren's phone as it never left the bar or so we've been told.

Yes you are correct, as I stated I know it wouldn't work for Lauren's phone because she left it at Kilroy's. I am speaking of JR/JW primarily and maybe their closest chronies. I think if we had info, for instance that a certain person/s (JR/JW) made a say 10 mile drive sometime between 2am and 2pm, that would be potentially case breaking evidence. IMO. While I know using cell phone "pings" isn't an exact science, it could possibly place a person/s in an unussual area. This information if attainable could easily implicate or exhonorate some POI's.

[Cuoco7]

Originally Posted by Janeumayer

I guess LE sometimes do not tell the truth, I knew I had read of another video or image after the 2:51 am one. Here's the proof:

"Parker did say police have found an image of Spierer on tape from a security camera in an alley. It showed her with someone else walking from a friend’s apartment to her apartment, Strong said."

http://www.indystar.com/article/2011...t|IndyStar.com

This article was written after CR's identity was revealed and the video of CR and Spierer was confirmed by LE.

http://www.indystar.com/article/2011...7CIndyStar.com

It is interesting to go back and read early on when things may have been put out there that shouldn't have necessarily been revealed...

"The two then went to a building complex up the street, where Rossman lives. Police have said she visited two apartments there. Salzmann said there was another "confrontation" that morning at Rossman's building, but he would not elaborate."

In this article it states that there was a 2nd confrontation later in the evening. Who was that with?

Suppose for a moment that this 2nd "confrontation" ties into her disappearance. Who was this confrontation with? Is this the person she was seen walking away with... the unknown unnamed individual?

There were no reported screams or yelling that night, correct?

That can really speak volumes about the people she encountered that night.... IMO she must've known all the people she was seen with. I believe if there was some sort of struggle in the alley vs. "activities" in the alley we would have heard about it and the direction of the search would have been presented differently.

****I'm apologizing for posting on something 4 pages back... As soon as I posted I caught up more with the discussion of this topic... But I was just thinking....

[Mophebius]

Originally Posted by cluciano63

I still can't imagine why JR would say that Lauren was with him until 4:30AM if she wasn't. Nothing explains to me why he would make this up, it only puts him in the worst possible position. So even if somehow she was scooped up by the "man in the street", he is still putting her at his place almost an hour later...she must have been seen there by someone else and he knows it.

I think JR had no choice in the matter, MB and CR had already placed LS as going over to JR's after she left their apt. I bet he wishes now that, that wasn't the case.

[Mophebius]

Originally Posted by Cuoco7

Police have said Spierer was with the student -- whom they have not identified -- at a nearby bar and that the two were seen on videotape returning to her residence about 2:30 a.m. They then left the building about 10 minutes later, police said.
http://www.indystar.com/article/2011...7CIndyStar.com

It is interesting to go back and read early on when things may have been put out there that shouldn't have necessarily been revealed...

Suppose for a moment that this 2nd "confrontation" ties into her disappearance. Who was this confrontation with? Is this the person she was seen walking away with... the unknown unnamed individual?

There were no reported screams or yelling that night, correct?

That can really speak volumes about the people she encountered that night.... IMO she must've known all the people she was seen with. I believe if there was some sort of struggle in the alley vs. "activities" in the alley we would have heard about it and the direction of the search would have been presented differently.

****I'm apologizing for posting on something 4 pages back... As soon as I posted I caught up more with the discussion of this topic... But I was just thinking....

There was a scream reported near the area where Lauren disappeared that night. It was never confirmed by LE, but was fairly widely reported in the blogosphere. It is not known if it is related, or like I said substantiated. The scream was aparently heard by homelss people in the area.

[waltzingmatilda]

Good morning! I always check the weather conditions and moon phases for when the missing person was last seen.

On June third the moon was a waxing crescent and the weather in Bloomington at 3:54 am was overcast. The sun rose at 6:18 am with civil twilight beginning at 5:46 am.

It was very dark that morning. I don't know how JR could have seen Lauren turn that corner on a dark street with overcast skies and only 3% of the moon illuminated. His story just doesn't add up but that is MOO.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/...tename=Indiana

Let's all hope and pray that today is the day that Lauren is found!

wm

[redsky]

forgive me for forgetting - there will be a PC today? at what time?
thanks!

[cluciano63]

I believe LE said there would be PC's Wednesday and Friday of this week at 11:30EST, so I think so.

[rlc]

I'm torn between these two scenarios:

If JW was graduating or even just some of her friends graduating, it could have been an emotional period for LS. I was emotional and behaving irrationally the last weekend with the friends who graduated the year before I did. It was the end of something, and I did not want the parties to end, but at the same time, was trying to distance myself from those who were leaving and convince myself I would have just as much fun with the people still around.

so...let's say JW said he'd come over after the game. Game ended, he didn't come, LS feels hurt/emotional about it, decides to go out with some of her guy friends. HT does not approve, out of concern for LS and loyalty to JW, and expresses that, to LS's annoyance.

LS goes out with the guys. She does drugs she does not normally do (part of that behaving out of character, trying to bond with the people who will still be around next year). At the bar, she sees some of JW's friends, who (like HT) show their disapproval of her party mates. She gets out in a hurry, leaving her shoes and phone behind. JW's friends want to know where she is going, so they go back to her apartment. They get there faster because she is walking barefoot (and maybe went a different way). at the apartment building, the altercation makes her think that her roommate was somehow involved in alerting JW or his friends to her going out with the guys, so she leaves angry at her roommate instead of doing the logical thing and staying home. She walks CR home. His roommate gets him to bed, and she is like a lost puppy, not really sure where to go but not wanting to be alone. She asks him if he wants to party, he says no, she says she will go find JR. but after leaving MB's apartment, she has a change of heart. What she really wants is JW. At this point, she either heads for his house, or for the bar where she left her phone, because she is still a little pouty that he did not come over right after the game, and she wants to see if he got in touch with her, in which case she'll go to his house. She encounters the dark-skinned man, who works locally and is walking from the bar he works at to his car. Either before or after getting to the bar. He offers to get her home. But at this point, she is ready to pass out and is locked out of her apartment, and does not want to call her roommate because she is still a little mad at her. So she gives him the address of the closest trusted friend, JR. He gets her there, continues on to his car. Cameras show him walking alone after the 3:38 encounter, so LE clears him. LS is now back at JR's after the 3:38 encounter. Now, either she is still trying to find a place to settle for the night, but does not want to call either JW (who she thinks blew her off earlier and/or is mad at her for being out with the guys) or her roommate (who she thinks ratted her out) so she calls DR, who doesn't answer, then decides to walk home or to JW's despite her reservations about the roommate or JW. Once outside, somebody, maybe the really angry friend of JW's who hit CR, maybe a stranger, maybe even the man who saw her earlier while on foot, is now waiting in a vehicle. Afterwards, none of her friends are sure what happened, but are afraid to admit to things they did that contributed. HT does not want anyone to know that she and LS had a disagreement or that she maybe let JW and friends know what LS was doing, because those things contributed to the tragedy. JW is afraid, but not sure, that his friends did something to his girlfriend on his behalf (for cheating) or that something horrible happened to her while she was cheating. JR's memories are vague, because he was under the influence, but he does not want to admit that, because it leaves too much room for hypotheticals in which he killed her.

Alternatively, while at JR's, her heart stopped, he panicked, called DR because DR supplied the drugs that the three of them did together before going to the bar, and it would seem logical to find out if he knew anything about the drugs. The question here is how they would have gotten her body away where nobody has found it yet.

[bunnyesq.]

Originally Posted by rlc

I'm torn between these two scenarios:

If JW was graduating or even just some of her friends graduating, it could have been an emotional period for LS. I was emotional and behaving irrationally the last weekend with the friends who graduated the year before I did. It was the end of something, and I did not want the parties to end, but at the same time, was trying to distance myself from those who were leaving and convince myself I would have just as much fun with the people still around.

so...let's say JW said he'd come over after the game. Game ended, he didn't come, LS feels hurt/emotional about it, decides to go out with some of her guy friends. HT does not approve, out of concern for LS and loyalty to JW, and expresses that, to LS's annoyance.

LS goes out with the guys. She does drugs she does not normally do (part of that behaving out of character, trying to bond with the people who will still be around next year). At the bar, she sees some of JW's friends, who (like HT) show their disapproval of her party mates. She gets out in a hurry, leaving her shoes and phone behind. JW's friends want to know where she is going, so they go back to her apartment. They get there faster because she is walking barefoot (and maybe went a different way). at the apartment building, the altercation makes her think that her roommate was somehow involved in alerting JW or his friends to her going out with the guys, so she leaves angry at her roommate instead of doing the logical thing and staying home. She walks CR home. His roommate gets him to bed, and she is like a lost puppy, not really sure where to go but not wanting to be alone. She asks him if he wants to party, he says no, she says she will go find JR. but after leaving MB's apartment, she has a change of heart. What she really wants is JW. At this point, she either heads for his house, or for the bar where she left her phone, because she is still a little pouty that he did not come over right after the game, and she wants to see if he got in touch with her, in which case she'll go to his house. She encounters the dark-skinned man, who works locally and is walking from the bar he works at to his car. Either before or after getting to the bar. He offers to get her home. But at this point, she is ready to pass out and is locked out of her apartment, and does not want to call her roommate because she is still a little mad at her. So she gives him the address of the closest trusted friend, JR. He gets her there, continues on to his car. Cameras show him walking alone after the 3:38 encounter, so LE clears him. LS is now back at JR's after the 3:38 encounter. Now, either she is still trying to find a place to settle for the night, but does not want to call either JW (who she thinks blew her off earlier and/or is mad at her for being out with the guys) or her roommate (who she thinks ratted her out) so she calls DR, who doesn't answer, then decides to walk home or to JW's despite her reservations about the roommate or JW. Once outside, somebody, maybe the really angry friend of JW's who hit CR, maybe a stranger, maybe even the man who saw her earlier while on foot, is now waiting in a vehicle. Afterwards, none of her friends are sure what happened, but are afraid to admit to things they did that contributed. HT does not want anyone to know that she and LS had a disagreement or that she maybe let JW and friends know what LS was doing, because those things contributed to the tragedy. JW is afraid, but not sure, that his friends did something to his girlfriend on his behalf (for cheating) or that something horrible happened to her while she was cheating. JR's memories are vague, because he was under the influence, but he does not want to admit that, because it leaves too much room for hypotheticals in which he killed her.

Alternatively, while at JR's, her heart stopped, he panicked, called DR because DR supplied the drugs that the three of them did together before going to the bar, and it would seem logical to find out if he knew anything about the drugs. The question here is how they would have gotten her body away where nobody has found it yet.

I think that it would have been easy for JR to get rid of her body on his way home for the summer.

[Blythe]

Possible?, - Just speculating, I can believe that Lauren was reacting to the fact that JW had graduated. I also buy that recreational drug use, not alcohol, was new to her.

My scenario differs otherwise. I'm thinking she had passed on between 3:15 and 4:00 and was already enroute to disposal. JR's unanswered call to DR was just a nod to Smallwood that "it was taken care of". He can claim to see her at 4:30 because he knows no one else has seen her at that time and it distracts from anything going on between 3:00-4:00.

The second "confrontation" which seems to have been dismissed or even retracted I believe was the "crisis". I think many people know what happened, at least in part. The group was motivated by shock and panic and acted quickly. Surely there were visitors in town, it is summer vacation, so there was access to anonymous help and vehicles.

I think she was totally wasted by 3:00, incapable of making a call. If she had any cognizance at all, she would have returned for her phone. Don't think she called DR for that reason. Besides if she called for her key and he didn't answer and she made no other calls why wouldn't she crash at JR's? If she was calling for her phone, why didn't she just call her cell?