The Verdict - Do you agree or disagree?

[jandkmom]

Originally Posted by Peepers

how she did or did not grieve isnt evidence of a crime in a court of law. just sayin..

We weren't saying it was...evidence is:

hair with death band in trunk
search for how to make chloroform on computer and chloroform in trunk
KC never reported Caylee missing
KC lied to LE about everything
Cadaver dogs hit on trunk
duct tape came from Anthony house
laundry bag came from Anthony house
KC abandoned car with smell of death in it
o....and Caylee was found bagged like trash on the side of road

[yolorado]

Originally Posted by ExpectingUnicorns

Agreed. But confusing consciousness of guilt with grieving does have import in a court of law.

Besides, what she was doing wasn't grieving. (Hey everybody, my daughter's dead, let's party so I can celebrate or ugly cope or forget or pretend she's still alive and then I'll call up my family and tell a bunch of lies and get tatoos so I can celebrate my baby's life and make believe her death is all a dream!!) She was going out of her way not to express grieving behavior, to act as if everything was normal, alright, perfect. (Hey everybody, my daughter's at my mom's or with Zanny or at Universal and I'm at work or in Orlando or in some other place in FL or at the hospital or a wedding. Aren't I a good mom and roommate and girlfriend? Nothing to see here. Just me. Just normal. No dead baby. Really, I didn't do anything to kill my baby. Honestly. Trust me!)

[yolorado]

<modsnip>
Well exactly. She dumped the car because it smelled to high heaven and not only did she not want anyone else to smell it and ask questions, she couldn't stand the smell anymore. So she complained to her friend Amy that the car smelled like death...she put forth the idea of squirrels because she didn't want to mention the real reason and setting up cover if she couldn't get rid of the smell later on. She may have had some other wild plan involving the car but basically she didn't like the way it smelled. Tony picked her up from Amscott so any story she'd come up with later about being jacked at Amscott wouldn't have worked. Who knows if she had a plan to use the car later on to cover what actually happened, but she didn't want to drive it then. Smelled like DEAD...she said squirrel but I think most of know what it really smelled like TO KC. The text to Amy and her abandonment of the vehicle (with trash to offer some sort plausible explanation if someone had questions) were KC testifying against herself. If she didn't have the dead baby (whose hair with a death ban was found there) in the trunk, why didn't she take action to fix the problem rather than dumping the car, take the car somewhere to see if someone could get rid of the smell? She didn't because she KNEW what it smelled like. MO, she was buying time. She's a talker, not a planner. She needed "one more day" to figure something out. Who knew she would find the jury from planet fantastic and she wouldn't even need an excuse!?

[DesSands]

Originally Posted by beccalecca1

I would appreciate a link if you found it, I am interested in things like this.

IMO, Casey isn't the normal griever, she isn't normal in the least bit. I believe her mind wasn't at the development stage of normal 20 years olds, therefore I believe her grief process wouldn't be that of a normal person.

To me, she acts very immature, almost like her mind stopped developing when she was younger, so she can't grasp complex adult things like adults can at her age (you have a child and you have a job, you are in contact with the father of the child because children aren't brought to you by the stork, etc.)

**I wish I could find my nursing Mental Health textbook, there was so much information in it that would pertain to the development of your mind, and the grief process, but I haven't been able to find it since I've been out of school **

Becca, do you believe that some people are simply PLAIN EVIL? Hard to fathom any mother doing such things, but it does go on without any remorse. We witnessed that and if there were significant mental problems, she had enough attorneys to find a pshychologist that could unearth that theory.

[beccalecca1]

Originally Posted by RR0004

There is no age determining factor that I know of when it comes to the grieving process...even young children go through different stages. Are you saying she is mentally delayed and therefore would be unaffected in the way that most otherwise unimpaired folks are? Personally, I would love to see her leave her brain to science. There have been some great brain studies on sociopathy with live candidates...who knows what they could find if they were able to study and dissect the sociopath's brain.
Does anyone know if this is being done?

Children suffer grief completely differently then adults do. In fact, young children may not even know that their loved one is never coming back; their minds don't understand it fully.

Same goes for teens, young adults, and aging adults. They all grieve a little differently then the other.

With Casey, I'm saying that I believe that she exhibits someone who's mind hasn't developed completely (perhaps in the emotional state) because of her behaviors in life. She appears to be someone who has suffered trauma at a younger age and her mind hasn't gotten past that point developmentally. That's just my opinion though.

[Chablis]

Originally Posted by DesSands

Becca, do you believe that some people are simply PLAIN EVIL? Hard to fathom any mother doing such things, but it does go on without any remorse. We witnessed that and if there were significant mental problems, she had enough attorneys to find a pshychologist that could unearth that theory.

They didn't have to. They put the people who raised her on the stand and let the people decide she never stood a chance with people who couldn't acknowledge a pregnancy and a chronically cheating emotional husband who couldnt return home until "after he got his confidence back" I mean maybe if she had not grown up with those people she could have stood a chance. The dramatics of George I sure hope was part of the plan and not how he really is.

jmo

[NotRocketSighence]

Originally Posted by kelian36

Isn't it odd that according to the jurors, FCA was found not guilty--BUT there is no investigation into 'who' killed Caylee?

Has anyone heard of LE going back out and reinvestigating a case (exception cold cases) after a not guilty finding? I haven't. I think its pretty much standard that LE think they find the person who did it otherwise why else would they be on trial. Not guilty findings are just a risk they run because its a flawed system and dependent on humans.

[pcrum12]

Originally Posted by jandkmom

I can't put the website due to TOS, but at your search engine, type in Caylee Anthony graphic evidence photos...they are at several locations. It is heartbreaking.

I googled your exact quote and I can't find anything that's not Pixelated. I really want to see the photos. Maybe it would change my mind. Maybe not.

[NotRocketSighence]

Originally Posted by pcrum12

I googled your exact quote and I can't find anything that's not Pixelated. I really want to see the photos. Maybe it would change my mind. Maybe not.

Its my understanding Judge Perry issued a very strong warning to all media about only releasing the pixelated shots.

[pcrum12]

Originally Posted by jandkmom

Lets pretend for a minute that there is no duct tape and no chloroform, since those are the two pieces of evidence that most people have the problem with. Just a baby in two trash bags and a laundry bag thrown out like trash on the side of the road...mother never reports her missing, rents a movie on the night of Caylee's death, stays with new boyfriend the night of Caylee's death, parties at a hot body contest the first week or two that Caylee has died, steals from her best friend, lies to friends about where Caylee is, abandons car, tells law enforcement that a specific name of a person kidnapped Caylee, and was willing to have LE look for such person, etc...what would your "reasonable" conclusion be that happened to Caylee? We have to step outside the realm of what a normal person would do or what could have happened. In a perfect world, no one is capable of killing their child, but in the real world it happens way too much. Children do die accidentally from drowning in swimming pools, but parents call 911, mourn, cry, and bury their children properly...they don't throw them out like trash.

That's one of my points. Casey nor any of the Anthonys are NORMAL.

[Baznme]

Originally Posted by pcrum12

That's one of my points. Casey nor any of the Anthonys are NORMAL.

With all respect,.........that's not an answer. The question asked was "what would your "reasonable" conclusion be that happened to Caylee?

[Sustained]

Originally Posted by pcrum12

That's one of my points. Casey nor any of the Anthonys are NORMAL.

And how many American families are normal ? And what defines normal in a family ? If you take away FCA, would the A's be considered normal ? Is it unusual to have a dominating mother, a semi-subservient father, and a child you have to walk on eggshells around in order to keep the family harmonious ? Certainly not, I grew up in one of those families. But no one in my family killed a grandchild ...

I firmly believe that some people are evil ... that degree of evil is only measurable by actions and it takes less in some people for the evil to surface. IMO, sometimes it takes just a little spark, such as CA threatening FCA to throw her out or take custody of Caylee. And we all saw what happened to Caylee ...

[NSS]

Originally Posted by Italy

Finally something we can agree upon.

Unfortunately that question does not account for the fact that mothers do kill their own children.

Beccalecca, you seem interested in the subject and I wish I had a link for you. There was a psychiatrist on TV who said that for a mother to accept the death of their child after the death happened, she had to have come to accept the death before it happened.

In his vast and professional experience, the accidental death of one's own child paralyzes the mother. She is unable to do anything and truly cannot accept it for some time. If, however, she has come to an acceptance of the child's death beforehand, it is an easy matter to accept the death afterwards. I think you would be interested in his comments and if I find it, I'll certainly pass it on to you.

It was a Doctor on the HLN show with Dr Drew. He said that the immediate acceptance (shown by her behaviors) was suggestive of pre meditation for the reasons you already mentioned.

[pcrum12]

Originally Posted by jandkmom

If JB knew that Caylee drowned that first day and was never missing, they what would it have mattered if GA had a wrong number call to a kidnapper? I get wrong number calls and make wrong number calls. If VT had have been the number that GA had on his phone list. Would it have been fair if VT would have been thrown out there as a possibility? If GA had accidentally dialed your number would you like to go out there and defend yourself? KC and JB knew what happened to Caylee and to toss doubt and imply that innocent people where involved was inexcusable. How can you think that is right?

bbm: Per DT after the verdict - Casey does not know what happened to Caylee after the drowning. He would want to depose him and investigate to see if he was involved with the disposal.

[RR0004]

Originally Posted by beccalecca1

Children suffer grief completely differently then adults do. In fact, young children may not even know that their loved one is never coming back; their minds don't understand it fully.

Same goes for teens, young adults, and aging adults. They all grieve a little differently then the other.

With Casey, I'm saying that I believe that she exhibits someone who's mind hasn't developed completely (perhaps in the emotional state) because of her behaviors in life. She appears to be someone who has suffered trauma at a younger age and her mind hasn't gotten past that point developmentally. That's just my opinion though.

...but they do suffer...all in coming to terms with their loss. Not grasping the loss of a loved one...believing they will come back...part of the wishful thinking that takes place during the grieving process. Even adults experience it. I don't think Casey experienced anything...and that's just MPO.

[RR0004]

Originally Posted by Sustained

And how many American families are normal ? And what defines normal in a family ? If you take away FCA, would the A's be considered normal ? Is it unusual to have a dominating mother, a semi-subservient father, and a child you have to walk on eggshells around in order to keep the family harmonious ? Certainly not, I grew up in one of those families. But no one in my family killed a grandchild ...

I firmly believe that some people are evil ... that degree of evil is only measurable by actions and it takes less in some people for the evil to surface. IMO, sometimes it takes just a little spark, such as CA threatening FCA to throw her out or take custody of Caylee. And we all saw what happened to Caylee ...

Same here...but blessed all the same. All children (thank g-d) accounted for.

[NSS]

Originally Posted by beccalecca1

In order to be diagnosed there had to be documented evidence of conduct disorder prior to the age 15. I'm not sure of anyone who can suffer "sociopathy" without being diagnosible.

My brother was diagnosed when he was 24. He and FICA could be twins.

The problem with diagnosing this disorder too early is that many of the 'symptoms' can be explained by so many other (non sociopathic) angsts of teendom.

[RueMoira]

Let's tell a story to demonstrate deductive reasoning.

Sometimes the most logical place to start piecing a story together is not at the beginning, but the beginning of the end....

A man named Gary, who is a proven pathalogical liar and a theif, has a car. This car smells really, really bad.
For some unknown reason, he is driving around with a bag of trash in the trunk of the car.
His car runs out of gas and, instead of doing what a reasonable person would do such as remove the bag of trash and fill the car with gas, he abandons it next to a dumpster.

Why does he do this? If he doesn't do the most reasonable thing, and he is not mentally ill, there must be a logical explanation for his actions.

Why does he abandon the car? Because it is out of gas and smells. Why didn't he fill it up with gas? He needs gas to drive it. Therefore, he must not have been planning to drive. Why? Because it smelled too bad.

Why did he have trash in his trunk? Was his going to dump it? Why not put it in the dumpster, since it is right there? Since the most locial thing to do with the trash would be to get rid of it, there must be another explanation.

If Gary doesn't want to drive the car because it smells but doesn't get rid of the trash, he must want to keep it smelling like trash. But why? Why would you want to keep trash in your trunk, especially when it is stinking up the car. So bad that you can't drive it.

Maybe, he was forced away from his car at gun point? Before he could remove the trash. No, the car was not taken. So, why would someone want him to abandon his car. They wouldn't, it wouldn't be logical since even
if there was an insane person who forced Gary away from his car, Gary would just go back later and get his car. So no, only Gary would want to abandon his car.
But why? It smelled.
So first fact the car smelled.

Of Trash? Well, no because he could remove the trash and get his car cleaned. It had to smell of something that he couldn't get rid of.
And it had to be covered up with the smell of the trash.
Hmmm...cat urine? No. How would a cat get into the car? And would you try and diguise urine with trash? And the car is Gary's only source of transportation, he could clean it well enough to live with it. No. It not only had to be a bad smell it had to be a smell that really needed to be covered up. A smell that if smelled would bring questions.

What would be a smell, that was so bad that you had to cover it up and would mean trouble for you? An animal? No, it might smell but you wouldn't have to make sure it was covered up by the trash smell. It would not cause trouble for you. The only smell that I can think of would be a smell of human decomposition. To bolster this others who smelled the car stated that it smelled of human decompostion. Plus, cadaver dogs also smelled human decompostion.
But whose body could Gary have had in his car? Who is missing and dead? His mother? No she is not missing or dead. His dad or brother? Nope all are alive and well. Oh yes, Gary's son Mark.
He is missing. Later Mark's body is found. Mark is dead.

What do these strange set of CIRCUMSTANCES let us know.

There was a smell in the car.
The smell was incriminating, powerful and hard to clean up? Other than human decompostion, nothing fits this description.
Other humans describe the smell of human decomp.
Trained animals ID the smell as human decomp.

Therefore, a dead body was in Gary's trunk. But who could it have been? His missing dead son? Or somebody else. Since nobody has accused Gary of transporting a dead body, other than his son's,
it must have been his son's.
Therefore, logically there was a dead body in Gary's trunk and it was his son.

This is only one of the CIRCUMSTANCES that are found in this story.

[NSS]

Originally Posted by jandkmom

We weren't saying it was...evidence is:

hair with death band in trunk
search for how to make chloroform on computer and chloroform in trunk
KC never reported Caylee missing
KC lied to LE about everything
Cadaver dogs hit on trunk
duct tape came from Anthony house
laundry bag came from Anthony house
KC abandoned car with smell of death in it
o....and Caylee was found bagged like trash on the side of road

....and the doll that Caylee never went anywhere without was found in the car seat in FICAs car, and smelled badly enough that CA cleaned it.

Caylee likely had her dolly with her when she died.

[bonniez451]

I have thought alot about how this jury shirked their duties and it makes me wonder on innocents sitting in prison and guilty ones are not and it has really made me think that some tweaking needs to be done to have some sense of assurance that the jury is doing an honest attempt of their duty. I personally, do not have enough judicial knowledge, but I thought they had paperwork with some kind of point system and that is what they used to go thru the evidence etc., I see I was wrong but I think it's kind of an idea and I was wondering if other people might have some idea that would help?

[MissJames]

Originally Posted by Italy

Thanks Suzihawk. I agree with your assessment. It is impossible to argue with fairy tales and imaginings. For some (thankfully few) the facts in evidence are an unnecessary burden.

Caylee accidentally drowned (no evidence) to avoid a confrontation with Cindy (no evidence) and the whole thing covered up by Cindy and George (no evidence) and that Casey lies because she was molested by her dad and brother (no evidence).

Using no evidence, it is just as likely that Caylee was strangled by her evil head scarf and the brown teddy bear carried her off to the swamp. Casey covered it up and lied because she is really only an imaginary person.

As other attorneys have said, the case was lost upon jury selection. Some of the conjecture is remarkably disturbing. Ashton warned about the trip down the rabbit hole - but it was clearly taken... with a first class ticket.

I often wish we could bring John McEnroe aboard with his famous rant: "YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!!!"

BBM

Sometimes the simplest is the best. Very nice summary .Thanks!

I'm way behind but this bears bumping anyway. JMO

[librazone]

Originally Posted by EPfan

The difference with the Scott Peterson case is (I have said this many times- sorry if it's like a broken record) he was connected with the crime, eventhough is was circunstantial.
He bought a boat and didn't tell anyone.....

How about Casey Anthony was in charge of a minor who she stated was missing for thirty one days...and didnt tell anyone. I would say ...that is a connection. How about she was the last person seen with this minor...I would say that is a connection. Of course my little juror mind may be different from your little juror mind...so we have a hung jury.

[librazone]

This case certainly proves how important jury selection can be for each side. But I remain adamant in my statement that there is a schism regarding the concept of critical thought in this society.

[MissJames]

Originally Posted by beccalecca1

Children suffer grief completely differently then adults do. In fact, young children may not even know that their loved one is never coming back; their minds don't understand it fully.

Same goes for teens, young adults, and aging adults. They all grieve a little differently then the other.

With Casey, I'm saying that I believe that she exhibits someone who's mind hasn't developed completely (perhaps in the emotional state) because of her behaviors in life. She appears to be someone who has suffered trauma at a younger age and her mind hasn't gotten past that point developmentally. That's just my opinion though.

My 15 year old son died when his siblings were 3,5,16,20,24and 27.He had cousins and many friends.NONE of them acted like nothing was wrong,let's go rent some videos.NONE of them pretended like he was hanging out somewhere else,let's go clubbing . We only had to explain death to our 5 year old (3 year old is developmentally disabled).He saw a therapist for 6 visits because he was present when his brother was found and it was traumatic. Now he's 11 and still talks about it.
School friends collected at our home,cried together ,wanted to participate in the funeral service and were obviously grieving. They made photo collages and had his soccer uniform framed for us.Many of them were unable to return to school for weeks,which created a problem,since it wasn't a legal excuse,but were grieving,torn up,unable to concentrate.

I'm not seeing Casey as a grieving anything. Not a grieving mom,for sure.Not a grieving young adult or a grieving child. She looks more like someone who was happy and having a great time.She looks carefree . Her actions after her own child died look exactly like someone who didn't care at all that her baby was dead. She wasn't grieving like a child or "ugly coping",she was celebrating her new "beautiful life".

[Baznme]

There are two statements that Casey has made in the days leading up to the trial.

"You could have a bucket full of evidence, but it's all circumstantial"......

and the other made in the prescence of Rob D., the bodyguard:

"They haven't even found her clothes yet".


Who told her it was all circumstantial evidence? Was she THAT smart to have known that early on?

What clothes is she speaking of? The ones Caylee had on when she met her demise? Where would they have been hidden? Was there blood on them?

These kinds of things are why I can't let this go. Guilty or not.