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  #301  
Old 07-27-2011, 12:54 AM
Walker Walker is offline
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Originally Posted by GobBluth View Post
First time poster here, and trying to sift through threads, so sorry if these questions have been addressed.

Does anyone know/have theories as to why JW's friends were on the 5th floor of SW, and how they entered the building? Were they visiting LS's roommates, or someone else? Were they looking for LS and CR? Did they know CR? Did JW know or know of CR? ZO sounds like trouble, in general.

Also, if CR has memory loss from the punch, how does he remember that LS was helping HIM home? Maybe he was assuming, IDK.

In regards to the psychic, has it been confirmed that she was using "cadaver" dogs? I have only seen them referred to as "her dogs," and IMO, most psychics seem a little whack-a-doo, so maybe they are her psychic dogs or something, and not trained cadaver dogs. Besides, why would a psychic think she needs cadaver dogs?? Kinda funny.

Again, sorry if these questions have been addressed, and my heart goes out to the Spierer family.
For the most part, "psychics" are a type of con artist. Psychics may indeed know things, but their sources do not live in the spirit world.
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  #302  
Old 07-27-2011, 12:54 AM
bonechaos bonechaos is offline
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Originally Posted by GobBluth View Post
Does anyone know/have theories as to why JW's friends were on the 5th floor of SW, and how they entered the building? Were they visiting LS's roommates, or someone else? Were they looking for LS and CR? Did they know CR? Did JW know or know of CR? ZO sounds like trouble, in general.

Also, if CR has memory loss from the punch, how does he remember that LS was helping HIM home? Maybe he was assuming, IDK.
That first question is something I'd like to know too. Whether they were specifically looking for CR, LS, or one of them lived there and they were just hanging out.

The second question is interesting too... they were probably talking about what happened to MB when they got back to CR/MB's apartment, and then he relayed the information to CR the next day.
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Last edited by bonechaos; 07-27-2011 at 01:33 AM.
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  #303  
Old 07-27-2011, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by bloom54 View Post
Maybe she did... the story says that they "put him to bed" and he doesn't remember anything....
I think the story says he/she arrived just after 3:00 am, was put to bed and LS left to go to JR's at 3:15am per MB.
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  #304  
Old 07-27-2011, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Tr. View Post
Right..we've discussed this on another thread.
Body Language as you describe plus choice words (possibly threats) equates to intimidation.

At least one of them (CR, LS) was not too drunk to know where the "house" was.
LS and CR were within steps of her Apt...a safe haven if-you-will, yet they didn't go there.
The most obvious reason (always imo) to leave at this point is because you feel compelled to do so out of one thing...fear.
Also, sorry - I missed what you said about intimidation when I replied previously. I do not in any way find the words "CR, dude, just leave" intimidating. They're the words of someone who wants to avoid drama.

Note: These words were simply used as an example.
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  #305  
Old 07-27-2011, 01:19 AM
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I get the feeling a lot of people think that LS was put out with the garbage.
What other ideas do you WebSleuthers have for searching and why?

I know some mentioned Gayle St Johns hits at IN37 and 46...been searched already.
Someone else suggested heading north on Old SR37...been searched already.
Someone mentioned continuing to search Lake Monroe...?
I heard Indianapolis mentioned...it's a big place.
WHAT Else you got?
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  #306  
Old 07-27-2011, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by bonechaos View Post
Also, sorry - I missed what you said about intimidation when I replied previously. I do not in any way find the words "CR, dude, just leave" intimidating. They're the words of someone who wants to avoid drama.
Do you have a theory you'd care to share as to who, what when, where, why?
  #307  
Old 07-27-2011, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Tr. View Post
Do you have a theory you'd care to share as to who, what when, where, why?
Here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6952685&postcount=116


I do not believe the boys who confronted CR were involved. I believe she is dead. I believe the crime here is what was done with her body, not how she died.
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  #308  
Old 07-27-2011, 01:34 AM
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Maybe they had planned on going to CR's all along and were just stopping by to pick something up...

Or maybe after running into JW's friends, LS didn't want to be seen bringing CR home and/or risk JW coming to her place. (Remember, HT says they had tentative plans for him to come over that night anyway)

If she didn't have her phone, she wouldn't have known if he was still up, or if his friends had sent him a text about what was going on.

just thoughts.
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  #309  
Old 07-27-2011, 01:34 AM
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Too much speculation?

We don't really know for a fact that LS took any illegal drugs that night or morning. Also, we do not know that she was behaving bizarrely. That she stumbled briefly getting out of an elevator after the altercation at Smallwood may indicate drunkenness, but we don't have any evidence that she was also abusing other substances. That CR (we assume) was able to assist her does not prove that he was sober, or that she was completely incapacitated.

Neither do we know that these assumptions are wrong: we just don't have any substantial evidence either way at this point in time.

What I think maybe we are underestimating is fear alone.

The fight among the young men on her apartment floor may have terrified LS. And, seeing her friend, CR, being assaulted would have been frightening enough that she might indeed forget about her shoes, and just hurry to get out of there ASAP.

The "activity" at 3:00 am in the alley: was that another altercation?

According to CR's attorney another confrontation occurred that morning at 5 North. Was this yet a third incident, or did the 3:00 activity somehow spread to 5 North? We don't know much about this incident at all, but again LS may have frightened.

What was the history of these confrontations? Had LS been frightened before?


LS seems to have joined a lot of different charity, social & cultural groups (Habitat for Humanity, etc), and perhaps she had at least one confidante in Bloomington outside of the Smallwood-5 North circle, or even outside IU. A part-time student who works, maybe?


What if to escape the escalating violence among the members of this circle, she tried to contact this outside person? With no phone, she may have proceeded on foot to some other location in Bloomington.
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  #310  
Old 07-27-2011, 01:44 AM
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Darcyline Darcyline is offline
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Bonechaos-I like that you cited Occam's Razor. That is probably one of the main reasons I do not really suspect CR. If you suspect CR, that just opens a can of worms of other people to suspect. I am assuming it is easier to hide a body if you have less people needing to keep a story straight and less people who might crack under pressure.


But, of course, I suppose sometimes that principle can be false.

I am also most suspicious of JR at this moment and, honestly, I would love to see him. Like, see him give a statement or answer a question. I know his lawyer is probably keeping him locked away somewhere and even if he isn't his only comment would be no comment. I feel like if my theory is correct those who are close to him probably have an inkling of what happened though.
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  #311  
Old 07-27-2011, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bonechaos View Post
Her apartment was not a "safe haven" by any means though. CR was NOT supposed to be there. The fact that CR was not allowed at SW is key, and makes perfect sense as to why they left
In your opinion it makes sense.

IF CR were so worried about the list you refer to then why would he walk past all of those security cameras on his way to getting the snot knocked out of him?
"Hey SmallWood security...here I am trespassing...again".

He didn't give a crap about that list and neither did LS. SmallWood officials talked about the list in an interview and all but said they don't enforce it.
They even went as far as to say that a person on that list could walk right by a security guard and they wouldn't necessarily notice because they don;t ask everyone for ID as they come and go out of the building.
The most that would have happened to CR if caught at SW is to be told to leave.

As for the actual cops showing up...ZO would have been cuffed and hauled off in a caged back seat like a dog. Any of his homies that had anything to say may have got to ride along.

No, the reason they didn't go in the apt is because they were not "allowed" to do so by the hall monitors all of which should be arrested and charged using the surveillance video as evidence.
Imo of course
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  #312  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by bonechaos View Post
We are trained to be advocates for our clients, not push a certain agenda. Speculating as to the type of work an attorney has done in the past should not be used to conclude anything. I feel like this board jumps to a lot of conclusions about attorneys without really knowing much about the profession outside of tv dramas and highly publicized criminal cases. I apologize if I come off as condescending.
I disagree. The kind of work an attorney has done is exactly the reason you would hire him.
I understand you are a law student...but if you are a practicing attorney with experience in prosecution then you know a lot of people at the police station and would make an excellent liaison.
JW hired a liaison.
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  #313  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Walker View Post
We don't really know for a fact that LS took any illegal drugs that night or morning. Also, we do not know that she was behaving bizarrely. That she stumbled briefly getting out of an elevator after the altercation at Smallwood may indicate drunkenness, but we don't have any evidence that she was also abusing other substances. That CR (we assume) was able to assist her does not prove that he was sober, or that she was completely incapacitated.

Neither do we know that these assumptions are wrong: we just don't have any substantial evidence either way at this point in time.

What I think maybe we are underestimating is fear alone.

The fight among the young men on her apartment floor may have terrified LS. And, seeing her friend, CR, being assaulted would have been frightening enough that she might indeed forget about her shoes, and just hurry to get out of there ASAP.

The "activity" at 3:00 am in the alley: was that another altercation?

According to CR's attorney another confrontation occurred that morning at 5 North. Was this yet a third incident, or did the 3:00 activity somehow spread to 5 North? We don't know much about this incident at all, but again LS may have frightened.

What was the history of these confrontations? Had LS been frightened before?


LS seems to have joined a lot of different charity, social & cultural groups (Habitat for Humanity, etc), and perhaps she had at least one confidante in Bloomington outside of the Smallwood-5 North circle, or even outside IU. A part-time student who works, maybe?


What if to escape the escalating violence among the members of this circle, she tried to contact this outside person? With no phone, she may have proceeded on foot to some other location in Bloomington.


I think she would have appeared on a camera somewhere if she set off on foot any distance at all...one of the locals here indicated that it would be difficult to have gone any great distance, I believe, without passing cameras in the downtown area and that LE had received a lot of footage.
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  #314  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:28 AM
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I disagree. The kind of work an attorney has done is exactly the reason you would hire him.
I understand you are a law student...but if you are a practicing attorney with experience in prosecution then you know a lot of people at the police station and would make an excellent liaison.
These kids would just need a criminal atty, be it a prosecutor or defense atty, simply to help them navigate through the processes in this situation, even if they are not guilty.

I was referred to a criminal defense atty to help me w/a situation w/a crazy ex that broke into my home and attacked me. I was the victim and not guilty of anything, but the communication w/prosecutors and defense atty and victim advocate etc was OVERwhelming.

Another question for anyone, and again, this might have been answered, so I apologize if it has. Does JW have an alibi? I'm not accusing him, but I'm trying to piece it all together, and I keep going back to means, motive, and opportunity.
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:31 AM
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Also, have they said whether the SW hall surveillance cameras captured any comings or goings of others involved, such as JW's friends? Did the cameras capture the altercation at all, or do we know that?

Sorry about all the questions, and thanks!
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by GobBluth View Post
These kids would just need a criminal atty, be it a prosecutor or defense atty, simply to help them navigate through the processes in this situation, even if they are not guilty.

I was referred to a criminal defense atty to help me w/a situation w/a crazy ex that broke into my home and attacked me. I was the victim and not guilty of anything, but the communication w/prosecutors and defense atty and victim advocate etc was OVERwhelming.

Another question for anyone, and again, this might have been answered, so I apologize if it has. Does JW have an alibi? I'm not accusing him, but I'm trying to piece it all together, and I keep going back to means, motive, and opportunity.
Well, he says he was asleep and I think maybe his roommate says he never went out. But not sure if he has anything provable, and we don't know, of course, if there was any phone or text activity. For all we know, he could be ruled out by now and LE isn't saying, as they have never ruled anyone out, or named anyone by name really. Just responded to a media question that of course he was a POI.
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:48 AM
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Well, he says he was asleep and I think maybe his roommate says he never went out. But not sure if he has anything provable, and we don't know, of course, if there was any phone or text activity. For all we know, he could be ruled out by now and LE isn't saying, as they have never ruled anyone out, or named anyone by name really. Just responded to a media question that of course he was a POI.
I just can't imagine that his friends get into a physical fight with his (JW's) girlfriend's male companion (CR), and then don't call/text him and let him know, immediately, until he responded. The way these kids are constantly texting these days...

I CAN imagine..."just saw ur girl w another guy going to her aptmt. clocked him in the faceeee." "answer ur phoneee"
  #318  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by GobBluth View Post
These kids would just need a criminal atty, be it a prosecutor or defense atty, simply to help them navigate through the processes in this situation, even if they are not guilty.

I was referred to a criminal defense atty to help me w/a situation w/a crazy ex that broke into my home and attacked me. I was the victim and not guilty of anything, but the communication w/prosecutors and defense atty and victim advocate etc was OVERwhelming.

Another question for anyone, and again, this might have been answered, so I apologize if it has. Does JW have an alibi? I'm not accusing him, but I'm trying to piece it all together, and I keep going back to means, motive, and opportunity.
Jw's alibi is bed at 2:30 per roommate...that's basically it.
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:54 AM
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Also, have they said whether the SW hall surveillance cameras captured any comings or goings of others involved, such as JW's friends? Did the cameras capture the altercation at all, or do we know that?

Sorry about all the questions, and thanks!
Cameras caught it per LE.
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:57 AM
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I just can't imagine that his friends get into a physical fight with his (JW's) girlfriend's male companion (CR), and then don't call/text him and let him know, immediately, until he responded. The way these kids are constantly texting these days...

I CAN imagine..."just saw ur girl w another guy going to her aptmt. clocked him in the faceeee." "answer ur phoneee"
First reports had the altercation between CR and friends of JW.

Then came research opinion and rumors that not one of the boys from the altercation were friends with JW.

Now we have reports that at least one of the "group" was a friend of JW.
Not sure what's right here.
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  #321  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:57 AM
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JW's alibi is frustrating because it is entirely plausible, but not 100% provable. But, how many times would our own alibis be like that? I am about to sleep now and if a friend was murdered my alibi would be sleeping with my dog at my feet. It would be true, but since my dog lacks the ability to speak how would they prove it is true?

Hopefully other info clears him that we don't know like phone records of some sort.
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Old 07-27-2011, 03:03 AM
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JW's alibi is frustrating because it is entirely plausible, but not 100% provable. But, how many times would our own alibis be like that? I am about to sleep now and if a friend was murdered my alibi would be sleeping with my dog at my feet. It would be true, but since my dog lacks the ability to speak how would they prove it is true?

Hopefully other info clears him that we don't know like phone records of some sort.
So true. I hope these kids aren't involved more than they have said. My initial feeling was that it was a stranger abduction, but the comments by LS's mother to the "friends" begging them to come forward, etc., make me feel like there is involvement there. Obviously she is privy to info that we are not.

My heart aches for her, and her husband and daughters.
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  #323  
Old 07-27-2011, 03:15 AM
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In your opinion it makes sense.

IF CR were so worried about the list you refer to then why would he walk past all of those security cameras on his way to getting the snot knocked out of him?
"Hey SmallWood security...here I am trespassing...again".

He didn't give a crap about that list and neither did LS. SmallWood officials talked about the list in an interview and all but said they don't enforce it.
They even went as far as to say that a person on that list could walk right by a security guard and they wouldn't necessarily notice because they don;t ask everyone for ID as they come and go out of the building.
The most that would have happened to CR if caught at SW is to be told to leave.

As for the actual cops showing up...ZO would have been cuffed and hauled off in a caged back seat like a dog. Any of his homies that had anything to say may have got to ride along.

No, the reason they didn't go in the apt is because they were not "allowed" to do so by the hall monitors all of which should be arrested and charged using the surveillance video as evidence.
Imo of course
You mean "hall monitor" as a joke for drunken young men hanging out in the hallway, or does Smallwood Management actually monitor the hallways?
  #324  
Old 07-27-2011, 03:47 AM
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You mean "hall monitor" as a joke for drunken young men hanging out in the hallway, or does Smallwood Management actually monitor the hallways?
This is in reference to the group of boys in the altercation...not SmallWood employees. Whether they were drunk or not..no idea.
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  #325  
Old 07-27-2011, 05:23 AM
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What litigation could possibly take place with JW if he didn't see her that night at all?
Why would JW retain an attorney if he didn't see her at all that night?
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