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Old 07-28-2011, 09:01 PM
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New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmism

Study co-author Dr. Roy Spencer, a principal research scientist at the University of Alabama in Huntsville and U.S. Science Team Leader for the Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer flying on NASA's Aqua satellite, reports that real-world data from NASA's Terra satellite contradict multiple assumptions fed into alarmist computer models.

http://news.yahoo.com/nasa-data-blow...-192334971.htm

I wonder if Al Gore will give his Nobel Peace Prize back, now?
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Old 07-28-2011, 09:08 PM
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...I wonder if Al Gore will give his Nobel Peace Prize back, now?
Not until your link works, at least.

I don't think Al Gore has to apologize for popularizing something that had achieved scientific near-consensus.

If it turns out the scientists were wrong, Al Gore and I and everyone else will revise our understanding of the facts. That's how science works.

As opposed to organized religion, where people just keep believing the same old nonsense despite the utter lack of supporting evidence.
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Old 07-28-2011, 09:48 PM
animlzrule animlzrule is offline
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Wink

Lots of information out there on Dr. Spencer. He's a wing-nut. I don't think Al Gore needs to worry about the status of his Nobel.
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Old 07-28-2011, 09:51 PM
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Not until your link works, at least.

I don't think Al Gore has to apologize for popularizing something that had achieved scientific near-consensus.

If it turns out the scientists were wrong, Al Gore and I and everyone else will revise our understanding of the facts. That's how science works.

As opposed to organized religion, where people just keep believing the same old nonsense despite the utter lack of supporting evidence.
Friggin' links!!! LOL! Hopefully this one will work. And Al Gore cherry picked his science for his movie, that's pretty well known, and made a small fortune off of his little crusade.

I wouldn't bring religion into this if I were you, because it's not only OT (and an uncalled for insult) but I'll wipe the floor with you, lol!

Try this link: http://news.yahoo.com/nasa-data-blow...192334971.html
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Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (KJV)

10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord. (KJV)

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Old 07-28-2011, 09:53 PM
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I don't understand why no link is wanting to work!!!! GAH!
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Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (KJV)

10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord. (KJV)

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Old 07-28-2011, 09:55 PM
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OK let's try THIS link: http://science.slashdot.org/story/11...tm_medium=feed
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Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (KJV)

10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord. (KJV)

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Old 07-28-2011, 10:01 PM
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And, to be fair (and assuming this link works, lol) there are those disagreeing with this report: http://www.space.com/12469-climate-c...nked-fast.html
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Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (KJV)

10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord. (KJV)

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Old 07-28-2011, 11:27 PM
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I think I'll believe the anecdotal evidence (glaciers melting, oceans warming) that documentaries produced by people that have visited the affected areas, before I'll consider modelling by NASA.
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Old 07-29-2011, 01:39 AM
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I think I'll believe the anecdotal evidence (glaciers melting, oceans warming) that documentaries produced by people that have visited the affected areas, before I'll consider modelling by NASA.
really? Anecdotal over proof?
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Old 07-29-2011, 04:55 AM
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really? Anecdotal over proof?
I won't argue that anecdotal evidence has its limitations.

But many scientists are pointing out that Spencer has misread his own modeling.
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Old 07-29-2011, 05:00 AM
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Friggin' links!!! LOL! Hopefully this one will work. And Al Gore cherry picked his science for his movie, that's pretty well known, and made a small fortune off of his little crusade.

I wouldn't bring religion into this if I were you, because it's not only OT (and an uncalled for insult) but I'll wipe the floor with you, lol!

Try this link: http://news.yahoo.com/nasa-data-blow...192334971.html
I stand by my post and its contents. Religion is only OT here when some believer gets offended. The rest of the time it is discussed with some regularity.

What I was responding to was the smugness with which each challenge to climate change science is greeted, as if the fact that science doesn't always give us absolute certainty were a weakness. In fact, the ability of science to correct itself is its strength. As a rule, organized religions have not demonstrated the same ability.

And BTW, Al Gore isn't infallible, but his aim was to make a concept understandable to the general public. He's not a scientist himself nor does he claim to be one.
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:07 AM
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I stand by my post and its contents. Religion is only OT here when some believer gets offended. The rest of the time it is discussed with some regularity.
Well no, it's OT because it has nothing to do with climate change.
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Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (KJV)

10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord. (KJV)

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Old 07-29-2011, 09:38 AM
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I tend to agree with DK, Nova, that religion doesn't actually have anything to do with global warming, or, as I'd prefer to call it, climate change.

And I'm left wondering two things:

If I had posted this link, would you have said the same thing? Somehow, I doubt it, as religion is not something someone connects readily to me...but it is to DK. KWIM?

And second, what a great deflection of discussion about the topic - global warming - into religion.

With the latter, I think that the discussion should be about the science of global warming/climate change, and let's leave God out of this...after all, one of the main tenants of climate change is that it's man-made...so let's talk about that.

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Old 07-29-2011, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Herding Cats View Post
I tend to agree with DK, Nova, that religion doesn't actually have anything to do with global warming, or, as I'd prefer to call it, climate change.

And I'm left wondering two things:

If I had posted this link, would you have said the same thing? Somehow, I doubt it, as religion is not something someone connects readily to me...but it is to DK. KWIM?

And second, what a great deflection of discussion about the topic - global warming - into religion.

With the latter, I think that the discussion should be about the science of global warming/climate change, and let's leave God out of this...after all, one of the main tenants of climate change is that it's man-made...so let's talk about that.

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Thanks, and my biggest concern is that no group of scientists can disprove beyond a reasonable doubt that any changes in the climate are not a part of earth's natural cycle. We obviously know that the earth's climate has changed dramatically on numerous occasions over it's history. The reason that worries me, is because if it is, in fact, just part of the cycle, then we cannot stop it, and this would be the first time it's happened with the earth so populated and industrialized. The end result could be catastrophic if we do NOT start to make adaptations for what may be inevitable, and not controlled by man.
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Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (KJV)

10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord. (KJV)

Follow me at my Biblical Blog: http://scripture-demystified.blogspot.com

Baruch ha Shem Adonai.
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Old 07-29-2011, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Herding Cats View Post
I tend to agree with DK, Nova, that religion doesn't actually have anything to do with global warming, or, as I'd prefer to call it, climate change.

And I'm left wondering two things:

If I had posted this link, would you have said the same thing? Somehow, I doubt it, as religion is not something someone connects readily to me...but it is to DK. KWIM?

And second, what a great deflection of discussion about the topic - global warming - into religion.

With the latter, I think that the discussion should be about the science of global warming/climate change, and let's leave God out of this...after all, one of the main tenants of climate change is that it's man-made...so let's talk about that.

Best-
Herding Cats
a. It was just a remark and hardly a "deflection."

b. You are probably right that the identity of the OP brought the comment to my mind. But am I to blame if some posters associate themselves with religious faith?

But c. I was responding to the smugness with regards to Al Gore and, by extension, scientific consensus. In my experience, that smugness is very much connected to religious "certainty", at least in posts here. (Atheists can be smug, too, of course, but non-belief isn't inherently hostile to questioning.)

And d. Religious certainty has lately been very much a foe of science, at least in the U.S. Personally, I think science and faith can be reconciled, but not when faith takes the form of unquestioning and unquestionable dogma.

Finally e. It's funny how religious believers nowadays have no problem inserting themselves and their beliefs into questions of politics and science, but woe to he who mentions the fact.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thede...arming__3.html
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Old 07-29-2011, 05:33 PM
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Thanks, and my biggest concern is that no group of scientists can disprove beyond a reasonable doubt that any changes in the climate are not a part of earth's natural cycle. We obviously know that the earth's climate has changed dramatically on numerous occasions over it's history. The reason that worries me, is because if it is, in fact, just part of the cycle, then we cannot stop it, and this would be the first time it's happened with the earth so populated and industrialized. The end result could be catastrophic if we do NOT start to make adaptations for what may be inevitable, and not controlled by man.
To me, the bottom line is that the things we need to do to reduce carbon emissions are many of the same steps we need to take to keep the oceans and atmosphere healthy, and to avoid burying ourselves in trash.

We don't have to be certain beyond a reasonable doubt that climate change is manmade to know we need to take action.
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Old 07-29-2011, 07:54 PM
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Sorry to basically respond to my own posts, but I was thinking about my part in the discussion here. I can't honestly say I didn't mean what I wrote, but I certainly didn't mean it to become such a big deal.

So, Dark Knight, I apologize for mentioning religion in this thread. I won't bring it up again, but I'm not trying to grab the last word: I hope you and HC and anyone else will feel free to add whatever comments you like.

As always, DK, I appreciate all the information you bring to WS. You are and have been a major contributor to what I know about the world and I greatly appreciate the time and energy you give here so freely.

And on a personal note, thanks for the comments on Fort Wayne. My sister found a great house there and is finding she likes the city very much.
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Old 07-29-2011, 10:55 PM
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Sorry to basically respond to my own posts, but I was thinking about my part in the discussion here. I can't honestly say I didn't mean what I wrote, but I certainly didn't mean it to become such a big deal.

So, Dark Knight, I apologize for mentioning religion in this thread. I won't bring it up again, but I'm not trying to grab the last word: I hope you and HC and anyone else will feel free to add whatever comments you like.

As always, DK, I appreciate all the information you bring to WS. You are and have been a major contributor to what I know about the world and I greatly appreciate the time and energy you give here so freely.

And on a personal note, thanks for the comments on Fort Wayne. My sister found a great house there and is finding she likes the city very much.
Well said, and thanks from me, Nova.

I think what you are saying about climate change is accurate. To keep things healthy for us as a species, we need to be better at reducing our footprint. I agree completely on that angle.

But I also agree that we need to learn how to adapt because this might be an inevitable, normal cycle...and irrespective of what personal habits we change, the climate change is going to occur, and we'd be very badly caught out if we weren't able to adapt and overcome, and learn how to live in a "brave new world".

If the discussion centers purely on one angle or another, then we're missing half of the solution/preparation/prevention (if possible) that we'll need. And that bothers me, and probably others...

And while I do consider Gore a politician, he's no scientist. He's a pol, and I know that pols lie and twist things to fit their own personal agenda. KWIM?

It'll be interesting to follow this particular story...we will see what happens.

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Old 07-30-2011, 04:59 AM
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Well said, and thanks from me, Nova.

I think what you are saying about climate change is accurate. To keep things healthy for us as a species, we need to be better at reducing our footprint. I agree completely on that angle.

But I also agree that we need to learn how to adapt because this might be an inevitable, normal cycle...and irrespective of what personal habits we change, the climate change is going to occur, and we'd be very badly caught out if we weren't able to adapt and overcome, and learn how to live in a "brave new world".

If the discussion centers purely on one angle or another, then we're missing half of the solution/preparation/prevention (if possible) that we'll need. And that bothers me, and probably others...

And while I do consider Gore a politician, he's no scientist. He's a pol, and I know that pols lie and twist things to fit their own personal agenda. KWIM?

It'll be interesting to follow this particular story...we will see what happens.

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Herding Cats
I do know what you mean about politicos, but Al Gore was functioning as a teacher when he wrote and produced An Inconvenient Truth. He certainly knew that well-funded parties would dissect the piece and greatly inflate any discrepancies, so I think the info he included was accurate to the best of his knowledge at the time.

I taught college students for years and I can tell you that every lecture is by definition an oversimplification of the material to some degree or another. My TAs and I used to discuss it all the time. It may be possible to be perfectly precise and accurate, but then you probably will make no sense to most of your listeners. So you choose what to include and inescapably distort some things in the process.

And you are right that Gore's aim was to persuade as well as to inform. And persuasive speech by its very nature will always lay itself open to criticism.

***

I agree that we should also be preparing to adapt even while we do our best to avoid making the problem worse.
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:49 PM
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Lots of information out there on Dr. Spencer. He's a wing-nut. I don't think Al Gore needs to worry about the status of his Nobel.
Yeah, sounds like a real wing-nut to me!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Spencer_(scientist)

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Roy W. Spencer is a climatologist and a Principal Research Scientist for the University of Alabama in Huntsville, as well as the U.S. Science Team Leader for the Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer (AMSR-E) on NASA’s Aqua satellite. He has served as senior scientist for climate studies at NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama.

He is known for his satellite-based temperature monitoring work, for which he was awarded the American Meteorological Society's Special Award. Spencer's research suggests that global warming is mostly natural, and that the climate system is quite insensitive to humanity’s greenhouse gas emissions and aerosol pollution and suggests that natural, chaotic variations in low cloud cover may account for most observed warming.[1][2]
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Old 07-31-2011, 05:54 PM
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Yeah, sounds like a real wing-nut to me!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Spencer_(scientist)
Keep looking. I'm not interested enough in the protestations of a denialist to spend much time on him, but suffice it to say that he is an outsider amongst his scientific community.
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Old 07-31-2011, 07:46 PM
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Keep looking. I'm not interested enough in the protestations of a denialist to spend much time on him, but suffice it to say that he is an outsider amongst his scientific community.
Hmmm...I just Googled the guy, and really didn't find anything negative. If you aren't interested in backing up your statement though...



Perhaps he's not popular, because he has an opposing opinion?
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:47 PM
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Well no, it's OT because it has nothing to do with climate change.

Oh, I hope I am not going to be torn to shreds. I have utmost respect for Dark Knight AND for Nova. Both of you are among my favorites!

I have watched Al Gore's movie, and read some of the science supporting his view. I also am married to a highly educated man who insists that Al Gore is Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. My husband disagrees that mankind has had much of an impact on our earth and its atmosphere. He disagrees that our effect is traumatic or even a large effect. He has shown me study after study (admittedly that support and have formed his point of view) that what we are experiencing now is NOT an anomaly but rather a part of a pattern which has been repeated for eons. Hubby has two degrees in the science field and one in the political field.....and,

I have NO higher education in science. (Well, not a degree in science! I surely did take enough college science classes to think I am "sorta kinda" versed on scientific topics! LOL!) I do respect my husband, and he is very persuasive in his presentations!!! However, I also think that humanity is having a HUGE negative impact on our precious planet.

I would rather err on the side of caution here! I think we should do all we can to REPAIR any damage we have done, and I believe we (all of us!) should learn to live in a way that is kindest to Earth. Because we really have no where else to go, do we?

I do take great comfort from the Bible verses which state that as long as there are people on this earth, there will be seasons.....summer will follow spring, fall will follow summer and winter will follow fall. Hopefully that means that humans will not completely destroy our home and atmosphere.

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Old 08-01-2011, 04:27 AM
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It's just like in court where experts seem to disagree with each other given the same set of facts. I have a feeling that the earth's climate doth change and I'll take history of earth changes for $500 Alex. I often stand where giant glaciers once stood. No human action caused the climate changes in the past.

I believe Al is a greedy capitalist who has managed to turn this fear into a different kind of green that lines his pockets!!! Go Green everyone!!!! Al needs a new mansion and more money to buy carbon off sets for his ever growing waistline that ups the old carbon output if you know what I mean. It's all just utterly disgusting to me.

There is no question that climate change may be slowly changing regional weather patterns but is it the age old way of nature, the effects of the sun, or some man-made cause? Experts don't agree so I know we won't. I don't think man can destroy the earth like this. She will kill us before we kill her.

Unless of course we throw the twisty bulbs away in the trash then we are DOOMED I say.

Edited to add that I do believe in treating our beloved home with care, keep the water clean and preserve things in good condition for future generations. That doesn't mean I agree with going completely overboard. I hate commuter lanes because I think they just increase pollution from all the cars sitting on the freeway at rush hour because they can't use that open lane. Twisty light bulbs are violating my civil rights...there's a huge overreaching of the government in the name of green and it really pizzes me off! Humph!!! Don't get me started, but as conservative as I may be, I love the planet.
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Old 08-01-2011, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kgeaux View Post
Oh, I hope I am not going to be torn to shreds. I have utmost respect for Dark Knight AND for Nova. Both of you are among my favorites!

I have watched Al Gore's movie, and read some of the science supporting his view. I also am married to a highly educated man who insists that Al Gore is Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. My husband disagrees that mankind has had much of an impact on our earth and its atmosphere. He disagrees that our effect is traumatic or even a large effect. He has shown me study after study (admittedly that support and have formed his point of view) that what we are experiencing now is NOT an anomaly but rather a part of a pattern which has been repeated for eons. Hubby has two degrees in the science field and one in the political field.....and,

I have NO higher education in science. (Well, not a degree in science! I surely did take enough college science classes to think I am "sorta kinda" versed on scientific topics! LOL!) I do respect my husband, and he is very persuasive in his presentations!!! However, I also think that humanity is having a HUGE negative impact on our precious planet.

I would rather err on the side of caution here! I think we should do all we can to REPAIR any damage we have done, and I believe we (all of us!) should learn to live in a way that is kindest to Earth. Because we really have no where else to go, do we?

I do take great comfort from the Bible verses which state that as long as there are people on this earth, there will be seasons.....summer will follow spring, fall will follow summer and winter will follow fall. Hopefully that means that humans will not completely destroy our home and atmosphere.
I'm sure I couldn't begin to hold my own in a discussion with your husband, kgeaux, but I don't understand him if he is arguing that humans have had no significant effect on the earth.

Although scientists may argue climate-future modeling, I don't think anyone can argue that we haven't largely deforested much of North America and destroyed large swaths of rain forest around the world. We also know that parts of North Africa and the Middle East weren't desert until human beings overfarmed them. The effects of oil spills and, perhaps more importantly, overfishing are also undeniable. Our capacity to drive other species to extinction also seems undeniable.

George Carlin used to do a routine complaining about campaigns to "Save the Planet." I'm paraphrasing, but he went on to say it was arrogant to think we could destroy the Earth. The Earth will go on just fine, but whether it will do so in a condition that supports human life is another matter. Per Carlin, the slogan should read "Save the Human Race."
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