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  #51  
Old 08-09-2011, 09:10 AM
I Care I Care is offline
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I've wondered if the airbags would stay inflated by the time she hit the snowbank. Since she had 2 impacts, would the bag stay inflated enough to have protected her from the 2nd impact?
In my own speculative thoughts, I would say that the airbag might not need to protect her from the second impact.

Using this new found information from J.R. that she could have clipped the snowbank on the inside of the curve in front of the Westman's home, the airbag probably deployed at that time. The impact on the left front (driver's side) bumper could cause the vehicle to spin in a counterclockwise motion nearly 180 degrees so that the vehicle is now moving or sliding in a reverse motion. Depending on the speed the vehicle was travelling, it could have made it all the way to where it was found, OR if moving at a slower speed, the driver could have reached a point closer to the tree with the blue ribbon, where upon the driver would have to shift the vehicle into reverse and drive the remaining distance into the snowbank to it's final resting place. The deflated airbag, coupled with a panicked state, could've hindered the driver from steering properly. This could also explain why the Westmans allegedly heard an acceleration. The directional force of hitting the second snowbank in reverse would have kept her planted in her seat. The windshield could've cracked during either one of these two impacts, possibly by her heavy divers' wristwatch which Maura allegedly wore on her left wrist; a gift from her father.
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  #52  
Old 08-09-2011, 03:19 PM
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Probably because if you google the campground, you pull up some aggregator sites (i.e. listings of all campgrounds) that indicate it is not open year-round, but what appears to be the official site says it is.

Someone should just call the campground and ask. Even better, ask when they were open in 2004.
Confirmed via telephone conversation with Pro-Sports, Inc., Camp Concessionaires:

Jigger Johnson campground is not open during the winter months nor has it historically been back to 2004 and prior.

The validity of Pro-Sports is corroborated by this NH government document:

https://www.nh.gov/nhes/documents/Se...toryBerlin.pdf

The official web site for the campground is at: http://icampnh.com

Also, FWIW, I will add that KancamagusHighway.com is probably not an official web site of any kind, evident from the disclaimer at the bottom of the page:

Quote:
"KancamagusHighway.com is privately owned and not affiliated with the US Forest Service, the White Mountain National Forest or the Saco Ranger District. All information contained on this website should not be considered official information."
"Renner got his facts wrong." This was not an accusation or attack against Mr. Renner's credibility or ability as an investigative journalist. It is to show you that we should all take Mr. Renner's attention to detail with a grain of salt. When in doubt do your own research. Perhaps one purpose of his blog is to iron out details such as this by using public input prior to publishing his book.

All this doesn't really matter any way because, as scoops mentioned, she probably would've headed for Woodstock or other familiar places in that area.

Last edited by I Care; 08-09-2011 at 03:37 PM.
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  #53  
Old 08-10-2011, 11:33 AM
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I see some new info posted at James' blog:
http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/

I don't get the point he is trying to make about "Check out Fred Murray's FOIA request. I've never seen anything like it from the parent of a missing family member." - it looks all logical to me.
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  #54  
Old 08-10-2011, 02:10 PM
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I see some new info posted at James' blog:
http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/

I don't get the point he is trying to make about "Check out Fred Murray's FOIA request. I've never seen anything like it from the parent of a missing family member." - it looks all logical to me.
My husband reminded me of this man we once knew. Personalities are all quite different we know this. The man I refer to, would have done the same, not left anything to chance, want to control everything in any type of investigation, in otherwords, "watch peoples backs".

Being older (as we are) perhaps others far younger don't realize that about human nature.

Everyone is different.

This father sounds like man we once knew who'd not leave anything, including a police investigation "to chance" , fate or God.

This personality tic should not then cast any type of disparaging pall around anyone.

Who is perfect anyway on this earth, when it comes to our personalities to point a finger at the other ?
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Old 08-11-2011, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
I see some new info posted at James' blog:
http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/

I don't get the point he is trying to make about "Check out Fred Murray's FOIA request. I've never seen anything like it from the parent of a missing family member." - it looks all logical to me.
I think Fred has a bad taste in his mouth about the NH LE. They were rather slow responding to Maura's disappearance. They also came up with suicide as the answer very early into the investigation. I can see why he didn't trust that they would ever find her. I don't think the LE in that area are used to cases like this. IMO, they didn't handle the family that well. Somewhat like doctors with terrible bed side manners.

JMO
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  #56  
Old 08-12-2011, 12:51 AM
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I think Fred has a bad taste in his mouth about the NH LE. They were rather slow responding to Maura's disappearance. They also came up with suicide as the answer very early into the investigation. I can see why he didn't trust that they would ever find her. I don't think the LE in that area are used to cases like this. IMO, they didn't handle the family that well. Somewhat like doctors with terrible bed side manners.

JMO
McSpy,

I really think it is an either/or type situation.

Either how you describe it is exactly how it went down. the police sloppily fumbled the case from the beginning by not taking Maura going missing very seriously and did not tactfully deal with the family in a proper way with information release. (A very possible conclusion)

Or, Police discovered credible and solid information early on that (they have never disclosed to family or the public) that to them eliminated the possibility of some of the theories that have developed about this case such as a mass murderer on the loose who just happened to have perfect timing the night Maura went missing. (Maybe thinking more on the lines of a suicide)

If it is the Or situation, then that would explain the police'es almost nonchalant appearance when it came to looking for a "Bad guy."
It would also explain why, even after all these years, they have not released all the information and evidence they have, because they do not have a body and forensic testing on the body to back up their conclusions.

If you are going to go public and say We believe Maura took her life, you better have the physical proof, because the family and public for that matter will demand it. Early on, I think the police PR slipped up and threw out the potential theory of suicide and quickly changed their tune once the public heat began to turn up on them. Then they almost went into lockdown mode on the release of pertinent information related to the case after that and even made a very shallow attempt to suggest that maybe a crime took place to try and show that they were taking a balanced apporach to the case (Pure move IMO, to avoid a future lawsuit more than actually believing what they were saying to the public).
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  #57  
Old 08-13-2011, 12:42 PM
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I think Fred has a bad taste in his mouth about the NH LE. They were rather slow responding to Maura's disappearance. They also came up with suicide as the answer very early into the investigation. I can see why he didn't trust that they would ever find her. I don't think the LE in that area are used to cases like this. IMO, they didn't handle the family that well. Somewhat like doctors with terrible bed side manners.

JMO
I agree, and good analogy what I BBM....
I think FM was most upset that LE did go after MM more aggressively since no matter what reason for her leaving her car, she was endangered..
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Old 08-13-2011, 02:17 PM
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I see a new entry on James' blog:
"Is it a clue?"
http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/

Wow! Most interesting to say the least...
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  #59  
Old 08-13-2011, 04:00 PM
Jane Birch Jane Birch is offline
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Interesting, yes, but if the police ARE trying to investigate these people, there went the investigation, potentially. I hope Mr. Renner realizes this isn't a game, and he is NOT Sherlock Holmes.
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:28 PM
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Interesting, yes, but if the police ARE trying to investigate these people, there went the investigation, potentially. I hope Mr. Renner realizes this isn't a game, and he is NOT Sherlock Holmes.
BBM

This is just my belief, but I do STRONGLY believe that Maura's family wants to know where she is (in whatever state of being), and I believe, just as strongly, that they want justice--if there is any to be had, that is.

I am fully supportive of State of New Hampshire law enforcement efforts, but I do seriously wonder "if the police ARE trying to investigate these people" because, after all is said and done, seven-and-a-half YEARS have passed since Maura was last seen alive by anyone who knows her personally.

Even though Mr. Renner "is NOT Sherlock Holmes," at least he's attempting to learn what became of Maura, and I ask all who read this post: IS Mr. Renner playing "a game" or is he serious and well intentioned about learning what became of Maura?

I have no personal stake in anything having to do with Maura's disappearance or the aftermath, but her case haunts me. The Maura Murray and Ray Gricar disappearances are keeping me awake many nights.....
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  #61  
Old 08-13-2011, 10:23 PM
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As I said in an earlier post, early on in the case, a NH state trooper misrepresented a note found in Maura's room in a way that supported suicide. The trooper(s) may well have believed she did take her life, but that misrepresentation and the failure to contact the rental condo owner that Maura had called prior to the trip (and no doubt other issues) raises questions, for me at least, about the objectivity and effort that went into the official search for Maura. I've seen copies of the FOIA document filed by Fred, as well as letters he has written in an attempt to learn about the investigation. Some people on the internet have painted his search as indicative of his involvement in her disappearance, which is, in my opinion, utter nonsense. It always irks me when the understandable acts of desperate and grieving family members are interpreted with suspicion. As none of us have probably ever seen an FOIA document filed by a parent of a missing young adult, of course the document will be interesting, different, unique--pick your term. The case has been going nowhere. Some fathers may write books, do TV, get a divorce, keep a child's room as a shrine, etc. Fred is trying to bring the government's resources to bear on the disappearance of a beloved child. Good for him.
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  #62  
Old 08-13-2011, 10:48 PM
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Again, I would say that it is an either or type situation with this case and I haven't been fully convinced one way or the other.

But either Barney Fife has been in charge of this investigation, locking himself into the jail cell accidently and stumbling all around because he hasn't seen one of them there big time crimes before


OR police have reasons to believe no crime ever occured, which explains why you would leave the largest piece of physical evidence (Maura's car) unattended for a year and a half

It might also explain why they haven't gone and done a roundup of the usual suspects of dirt bags either



Back to the note the police found in Maura's room.

Yes it is possible they confused an old note as a possible suicide note Maura had just written prior to her departure.

But considering the note was from her boyfriend to her and more than likely had a date stamped on it (Because it was printed from a computer) They would have to be the dumbest cops in the world to mess that one up.
  #63  
Old 08-14-2011, 12:14 AM
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I see a new entry on James' blog:
"Is it a clue?"
http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/

Wow! Most interesting to say the least...

Very Interesting! I would think their supervisor and coworkers may have some insight on this. They may know if it was unusual for them to not show up for work. I also wonder the time they were suppose to show up to work and how it fits in the timeline. I have always thought it was strange that nobody but the contractor had seen her running down the road that night. I know the area is sparsely populated, but the road leads to several towns, so one would suspect a car or two would use that road. Also, it wasn't that late. Activity was probably winding down, but not dead yet.
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  #64  
Old 08-14-2011, 12:28 AM
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McSpy,

I really think it is an either/or type situation.

Either how you describe it is exactly how it went down. the police sloppily fumbled the case from the beginning by not taking Maura going missing very seriously and did not tactfully deal with the family in a proper way with information release. (A very possible conclusion)

Or, Police discovered credible and solid information early on that (they have never disclosed to family or the public) that to them eliminated the possibility of some of the theories that have developed about this case such as a mass murderer on the loose who just happened to have perfect timing the night Maura went missing. (Maybe thinking more on the lines of a suicide)

If it is the Or situation, then that would explain the police'es almost nonchalant appearance when it came to looking for a "Bad guy."
It would also explain why, even after all these years, they have not released all the information and evidence they have, because they do not have a body and forensic testing on the body to back up their conclusions.

If you are going to go public and say We believe Maura took her life, you better have the physical proof, because the family and public for that matter
will demand it. Early on, I think the police PR slipped up and threw out the potential theory of suicide and quickly changed their tune once the public heat began to turn up on them. Then they almost went into lockdown mode on the release of pertinent information related to the case after that and even made a very shallow attempt to suggest that maybe a crime took place to try and show that they were taking a balanced apporach to the case (Pure move IMO, to avoid a future lawsuit more than actually believing what they were saying to the public).
You make some valid points here. Although, it doesn't have to be a mass murderer coincidentially driving down Rt. 112. It could have been just an opportunist, who took things too far. It could have been his first offense of that magnitude. I really think young women can be targets. Take the case of Brittany Driscoll, who was snatched off a street, the case of Chandra Levy, who was running in a park, etc., etc.
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  #65  
Old 08-14-2011, 11:59 AM
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I think FM was most upset that LE did go after MM more aggressively since no matter what reason for her leaving her car, she was endangered..
I was told by someone close to the investigation that it is common for drivers under the influence who are involved in accidents to leave the scene in order to sober up. Maura would not necessarily be considered endangered if police saw the open alcohol containers in her car. At least not the first 24-hours.
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Old 08-14-2011, 12:32 PM
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I was told by someone close to the investigation that it is common for drivers under the influence who are involved in accidents to leave the scene in order to sober up. Maura would not necessarily be considered endangered if police saw the open alcohol containers in her car. At least not the first 24-hours.
Not only alcohol, but a crashed car with a cracked windshield... not to mention night approaching in a freezing, rural, remote area... if that were my child and I was told this didn't amount to being endangered, I'd have gone bonkers! - got to feel for what Fred when thru!
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Old 08-15-2011, 12:19 PM
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Hi everyone,

I read in a couple of places that before Maura left for NH, she packed up her dorm room, even going so far as taking things down off her wall. I was wondering if someone could verify is this is true. IF it was, I would think this would be a very important piece of info. After all, why would she take things off her wall if she was planning on coming back from a short trip to get away and clear her head? Those are actions that I would expect from someone not planning on coming back. Perhaps she was planning on droppping out of school, and was going away to think about how she would break the news to her family? It also might indicate she was going to either commit suicide or run away somewhere. What do you guys think? If this is verified info, I feel that is one of the most telling of Maura's actions.
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Old 08-15-2011, 12:23 PM
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Hi everyone,

I read in a couple of places that before Maura left for NH, she packed up her dorm room, even going so far as taking things down off her wall. I was wondering if someone could verify is this is true. IF it was, I would think this would be a very important piece of info. After all, why would she take things off her wall if she was planning on coming back from a short trip to get away and clear her head? Those are actions that I would expect from someone not planning on coming back. Perhaps she was planning on droppping out of school, and was going away to think about how she would break the news to her family? It also might indicate she was going to either commit suicide or run away somewhere. What do you guys think? If this is verified info, I feel that is one of the most telling of Maura's actions.
All IIRC - things taken off the walls were things taken down before she went on the semester break, she had not yet put them back up ... same for boxes - it wasn't that she had packed, but that she hadn't unpacked...
As far as I can tell, there was nothing to indicate she did not plan on coming back. Nothing to indicate she wanted to run away forever from her family...

ETA: reason she took pictures and packed up things before break was that she was afraid someone might take or mess up her things while she was away during the semester break.... again, all IIRC...
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Old 08-15-2011, 12:40 PM
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Something I posted on the Lauren Spierer thread may be of interest here...


After watching "Nightmare Next Store" about Katie Sepich I couldn't help but think of Lauren's case AND it makes think about Maura in that it shows how fast a person can be grabbed by a radon stranger, and how it seems impossible that a perp just happens to be a place....

Essentially, Katie had left a party to walk home, after a spat with her BF.... he notices she had left, and so he goes to follow her in his truck to see that she gets home okay...
He sees she is at her home, and leaves... but she doesn't have her keys with her, so she goes to remove a screen to get thru a window - she is taken at that point!

Well, if you get a chance to see the show, check it out...
http://investigation.discovery.com/t...129699.39406.x

But what struck me about Katie's case was the very small window of opportunity the perp had...

Last edited by OldSteve; 08-15-2011 at 04:34 PM. Reason: correction
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Old 08-15-2011, 01:33 PM
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All IIRC - things taken off the walls were things taken down before she went on the semester break, she had not yet put them back up ... same for boxes - it wasn't that she had packed, but that she hadn't unpacked...
As far as I can tell, there was nothing to indicate she did not plan on coming back. Nothing to indicate she wanted to run away forever from her family...

ETA: reason she took pictures and packed up things before break was that she was afraid someone might take or mess up her things while she was away during the semester break.... again, all IIRC...
With all due respect, this is one of those things that has only ever been a theory. We do not know that she packed everything up before the break and merely hadn't unpacked yet. And frankly, this makes NO sense to me at all (as someone who went to college and lived in a dorm not that long ago), and it especially does not make sense in light of the fact that apparently these things were found on her bed...unless she had not been sleeping in her dorm room since getting back from break.

Quite frankly, this is one of those details that has been repeated over time in a certain way in order to not cast any doubts on Maura's frame of mind. I think we do NOT know one way or the other whether she was packed up or not-yet-unpacked, and the former makes more sense to me...UNLESS she was not sleeping in her dorm room on a regular basis. I point this out because I knew a handful of girls in college whose parents thought were living in a dorm (and were paying for a dorm plan!), but were actually living with boyfriends or friends in off-campus apartments. Could she have been sleeping elsewhere because she was scared/being stalked/harassed on campus? OR...what exactly WAS packed up? Anything valuable...ie. things to try to sell or pawn?

There are way too many unknowns to simply conclude that she hadn't unpacked yet. This is a VERY important detail and I only wish we could see some pictures of her dorm room in order to better see exactly what was and was not unpacked.

Just MHO...and I know many will NOT like it!!
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Old 08-15-2011, 04:43 PM
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With all due respect, this is one of those things that has only ever been a theory. We do not know that she packed everything up before the break and merely hadn't unpacked yet. And frankly, this makes NO sense to me at all (as someone who went to college and lived in a dorm not that long ago), and it especially does not make sense in light of the fact that apparently these things were found on her bed...unless she had not been sleeping in her dorm room since getting back from break.

Quite frankly, this is one of those details that has been repeated over time in a certain way in order to not cast any doubts on Maura's frame of mind. I think we do NOT know one way or the other whether she was packed up or not-yet-unpacked, and the former makes more sense to me...UNLESS she was not sleeping in her dorm room on a regular basis. I point this out because I knew a handful of girls in college whose parents thought were
living in a dorm (and were paying for a dorm plan!), but were actually living with boyfriends or friends in off-campus apartments. Could she have been sleeping elsewhere because she was scared/being stalked/harassed on campus? OR...what exactly WAS packed up? Anything valuable...ie. things to try to sell or pawn?

There are way too many unknowns to simply conclude that she hadn't unpacked yet. This is a VERY important detail and I only wish we could see some pictures of her dorm room in order to better see exactly what was and
was not unpacked.

Just MHO...and I know many will NOT like it!!
Maura's mother had said that Maura brought practically everything home on winter break and may not have unpacked everything when she moved back to the dorm. IIRC, she was only back to school for a couple of weeks.
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Old 08-15-2011, 04:52 PM
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Oddtree;

You are correct, I do not have as fact that MM didn't unpack.... only second hand sources such as what's been posted on old forums:

"""Although police believe the belongings packed in Maura's dorm room were another indication she had no intention to return, the mother of Maura's then-boyfriend has another explanation. Sharon Rausch thinks Maura hadn't yet unpacked her things after a long Christmas break. During one of Maura's visits to the Rausch home, Mrs. Rausch tried to loan her an extra suitcase, only to discover it hadn't been unpacked. That made Maura laugh, Sharon Rausch said. "Maura said, You're just like me. I unpack as I use my things.' That's out of her own mouth. Maybe she just never unpacked."
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Old 08-15-2011, 05:11 PM
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With all due respect, this is one of those things that has only ever been a theory. We do not know that she packed everything up before the break and merely hadn't unpacked yet. And frankly, this makes NO sense to me at all (as someone who went to college and lived in a dorm not that long ago), and it especially does not make sense in light of the fact that apparently these things were found on her bed...unless she had not been sleeping in her dorm room since getting back from break.

Quite frankly, this is one of those details that has been repeated over time in a certain way in order to not cast any doubts on Maura's frame of mind. I think we do NOT know one way or the other whether she was packed up or not-yet-unpacked, and the former makes more sense to me...UNLESS she was not sleeping in her dorm room on a regular basis. I point this out because I knew a handful of girls in college whose parents thought were living in a dorm (and were paying for a dorm plan!), but were actually living with boyfriends or friends in off-campus apartments. Could she have been sleeping elsewhere because she was scared/being stalked/harassed on campus? OR...what exactly WAS packed up? Anything valuable...ie. things to try to sell or pawn?

There are way too many unknowns to simply conclude that she hadn't unpacked yet. This is a VERY important detail and I only wish we could see some pictures of her dorm room in order to better see exactly what was and was not unpacked.

Just MHO...and I know many will NOT like it!!
This entire thread is reminding me quite a bit now, of Rumsfeld, aka "Rummy" when he said the following :

The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.

That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

—Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing


note: no disrespect intended to the posters here.....
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They controlled the metaphorical thread of life of every mortal from birth to death."

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Old 08-15-2011, 08:22 PM
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As it has been explained, her dorm was completely packed up (art from the walls was down, things in her drawers taken out and boxes of her stuff were stacked up on her bed with an old email written by her boyfriend to her (with the subject having to do with him cheating on her) placed on top of the boxes.

I know of plenty of people that take their time unpacking when they move in or return to a place, there is no way that this is one such occassion.

I've always struggled with the fact that the boyfriend and boyfriend's mother have not been shy about saying there is no NEW note that was found even though, they know precisely what note the police were referring to when they made their statement about Maura being potentially suicidal or wanting to get away

(The boyfriend was there when police searched her dorm room).
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Old 08-16-2011, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by scoops View Post
As it has been explained, her dorm was completely packed up (art from the walls was down, things in her drawers taken out and boxes of her stuff were stacked up on her bed with an old email written by her boyfriend to her (with the subject having to do with him cheating on her) placed on top of the boxes.

I know of plenty of people that take their time unpacking when they move in or return to a place, there is no way that this is one such occassion.

I've always struggled with the fact that the boyfriend and boyfriend's mother have not been shy about saying there is no NEW note that was found even though, they know precisely what note the police were referring to when they made their statement about Maura being potentially suicidal or wanting to get away

(The boyfriend was there when police searched her dorm room).
You seem convinced....
Yet, I don't know if we can ever really figure out what she was planning... maybe leaving school when she returned...and yet if she was planning on leaving school, or ending it all, why did she take her books to study with her..
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