NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #8

[Mr. Noatak]

Originally Posted by nova1998

In an earlier post, quite far back, Mr. Noatak said he/she believes the tracking dog(s) got it right.

So do I.

Whenever you begin tracking training with a dog, one philosophy (e.g.Tracking Through Drive - TTD) stipulates that it is best to start off in fields with short grass as opposed to long grass and not near trees and bushes. Why? Because scent particles which "stick" to grass, trees, and bushes creates easier air-scenting opportunities for the dog, and that isn't desirable at the start of training as you want the dog to focus on ground scent and the type of decomposition that occurs. Scent clings to brush, bushes, trees, wooded areas, long grass, and the sides of buildings. Not only does it cling well to these types of vegetation and structures, but it can last longer as well. If the SAR dogs went out into woods and couldn't detect any scent...that's probably because there was none. And even if Ms. Murray didn't wear her gloves that much, her scent was still on them as she would have had to have handled them.

Vehicles are not 100% airtight - they are constantly leaking scent from door seals and other areas. If the tracking dog(s) stopped at roughly 100 yards from the the Saturn, Ms. Murray may have actually entered the vehicle prior to this point, as some dogs will still be able to detect scent from a vehicle which is moving at a very slow speed (such as accelerating from a stopped position and shortly afterwards). Once the vehicle has picked up speed, it becomes far more difficult and the dogs have to stop. As well, it could depend on what the wind conditions were like on that day. If wind was to Ms. Murray's back, her scent may have been pushed forward on the road in the same direction which would cause some dogs to overshoot.

It depends on the dog, but if he/she overshot slightly, due to either wind conditions or scent leaking from the car, then bring down the 100 yards a bit, and you may have had a vehicle that pulled up not that much further ahead of Ms. Murray's Saturn. And off they would have gone, in a flash.

My opinions only, no facts here:

Yes. A dog's nose does not lie, unless the handler has a motive to subliminally affect its actions (which seems quite unlikely in this case, but there are other cases to the contrary-mostly involving publicity seekers). But, I think the vehicle that picked up Maura did not travel very far.

[Skigirl]

Originally Posted by telemag

I see. With all due respect I'll strongly disagree with this one. Using someone else's CC to order pizza does not scream bulimia. Its says to me that she wanted pizza and couldn't afford it and or was thief enough to say she was not going to waste her own money when she could use someone else's card. As far the drinking how many college kids drink beer and other alcoholic beverages? Also on a side note I knew a girl who was bulimic, her teeth were grey looking. She told me it was from all the stomach acid from throwing up all the time. Maura's looked pretty white to me.

We're going to have to agree to disagree, because stealing is a pretty risky act for someone who's spent a lot of time worrying about her future, and it seems to me that there would need to be more to it than just wanting a snack. Furthermore, $80 is a lot of pizza if the reports are true that it was all ordered over the course of a few weeks and consumed alone.

Finally, speaking as someone who a) knew quite a few bulimics in college, and b) spent much of her professional life around university psych departments, I can say that not all bulimics start having visible teeth problems - many (most) don't have enamel damage right away, and even when present, that alone doesn't necessarily make teeth gray.

[Simply Caustic]

Originally Posted by telemag

Probably because they deliver so no cameras and she liked pizza. It's the food of choice for most college kids, I know plenty. I think people are reading too much into this. Maura used a stolen cc number to order pizza so she must be bulimic? Come on that's a huge stretch.

If the only evidence to support Maura's bullimia was that she had repeatedly (including after getting caught at WP) used stolen credit card numbers for food - I'd agree that it was a huge stretch. However, there was talk on the old Maura Murray forum (the forumer21 link - I posted it earlier in this thread) that Maura was bullimic - OR it may have been a Topix revelation (and unfortunately, if that's the case, that part of the thread is gone, so I will have no backup for my thoughts. In which case, feel free to take it with a grain of salt). In any case, it was mentioned a few times prior to Renner's revelation re: credit card fraud, but I didn't put much thought into it.
However, upon the fraud confirmation (I say confirmation, because it had been alleged years ago - but without any supporting information, I also dismissed it) - I I changed my mind.
The total on the order we know about was $17.00. This was in November of 2003. $17 was (heck, still is) a lot of pizza - and I highly doubt that Maura would have had a friend over while using a stolen card - at a minimum, we know she was alone for the 'sting' incident. So, we know, given the FOIA information, that she was alone, and ordered $17 worth of food. I do agree with you that it's not definitive, but I think it's more suggestive of bullimia, than of simply being 'hungry' that many times in a few weeks - with a stolen card.
Just my two cents, and all that.
***Quick note: I wanted to say how much I enjoy this thread, and the easy banter that goes back and forth, even when we don't all agree. It's just great to read this thread, after a headache or two from the bickering on Topix and other places***

[telemag]

Originally Posted by Skigirl

We're going to have to agree to disagree, because stealing is a pretty risky act for someone who's spent a lot of time worrying about her future, and it seems to me that there would need to be more to it than just wanting a snack. Furthermore, $80 is a lot of pizza if the reports are true that it was all ordered over the course of a few weeks and consumed alone.

Finally, speaking as someone who a) knew quite a few bulimics in college, and b) spent much of her professional life around university psych departments, I can say that not all bulimics start having visible teeth problems - many (most) don't have enamel damage right away, and even when present, that alone doesn't necessarily make teeth gray.

Just wondered how you know she consumed the pizza alone. Also did she eat it all at once or over days? Thanks

[Skigirl]

I don't know that she consumed it alone, but as Simply Caustic says, you usually don't invite friends over to witness your petty crimes...and she was alone during the "sting" when the police took her picture. But you are right, she could have had ten people in her room for all I know. I just think it's sort of unlikely.

I also agree with Simply Caustic that it's refreshing to be able to have some real back and forth discussion without it getting nasty or crazy as it does in some forums!

[deca]

Originally Posted by Simply Caustic

If the only evidence to support Maura's bullimia was that she had repeatedly (including after getting caught at WP) used stolen credit card numbers for food - I'd agree that it was a huge stretch. However, there was talk on the old Maura Murray forum (the forumer21 link - I posted it earlier in this thread) that Maura was bullimic - OR it may have been a Topix revelation (and unfortunately, if that's the case, that part of the thread is gone, so I will have no backup for my thoughts. In which case, feel free to take it with a grain of salt). In any case, it was mentioned a few times prior to Renner's revelation re: credit card fraud, but I didn't put much thought into it.
However, upon the fraud confirmation (I say confirmation, because it had been alleged years ago - but without any supporting information, I also dismissed it) - I I changed my mind.
The total on the order we know about was $17.00. This was in November of 2003. $17 was (heck, still is) a lot of pizza - and I highly doubt that Maura would have had a friend over while using a stolen card - at a minimum, we know she was alone for the 'sting' incident. So, we know, given the FOIA information, that she was alone, and ordered $17 worth of food. I do agree with you that it's not definitive, but I think it's more suggestive of bullimia, than of simply being 'hungry' that many times in a few weeks - with a stolen card.
Just my two cents, and all that.
***Quick note: I wanted to say how much I enjoy this thread, and the easy banter that goes back and forth, even when we don't all agree. It's just great to read this thread, after a headache or two from the bickering on Topix and other places***

Hi, a lurker on this thread here. Do we know what she ordered and from where? Because if there was a delivery charge, soda, salad, etc. $17 isn't that high. Now in 2012, all the local (non chain) pizza places here charge 17-24$ a pizza. I can see a 10$ pizza, $3 soda (they gouge you) plus a delivery charge= 17. she could eat a third a pizza and have leftovers the next day for lunch and dinner. Not anything weird in my book. She could also have invited others over to eat some. That was pretty typical college behavior in 2002 (I had just graduated from college then). I also knew people that ate like that and had a great metabolism from running.
Also, whose cc # was it? A friend's? relative's? stranger's? Is this an alleged theft or confirmed theft of the cc#? TIA!

[Queen_City]

Sorry to derail, I followed this case closely for a while but haven't checked in on it for about 6 months. Does anyone wanna fill me in on the pizza/credit card talk? I can probably just read back but cliffs would be nice too.

[White Rain]

Originally Posted by deca

Hi, a lurker on this thread here. Do we know what she ordered and from where? Because if there was a delivery charge, soda, salad, etc. $17 isn't that high. Now in 2012, all the local (non chain) pizza places here charge 17-24$ a pizza. I can see a 10$ pizza, $3 soda (they gouge you) plus a delivery charge= 17. she could eat a third a pizza and have leftovers the next day for lunch and dinner. Not anything weird in my book. She could also have invited others over to eat some. That was pretty typical college behavior in 2002 (I had just graduated from college then). I also knew people that ate like that and had a great metabolism from running.
Also, whose cc # was it? A friend's? relative's? stranger's? Is this an alleged theft or confirmed theft of the cc#? TIA!

$17 doesn't seem that high to me either.....not when most toppings are usually a buck a piece......and wings, OMG are those freaking things outrageous!
This actually reminds me of a time when I called a local place (won't same name!) and I ordered for myself and a friend...well my friend wanted a calzone with ALL toppings.....and I mean your basic pep, sausage, onion, mushroom, black olive, hamburger.....not all the kinda things you can add extra these days like cheddar cheese, meatball, chicken, alfredo sauce, pineapple, etc.....
I was the one ordering for us and the girl on the other end said something along the lines of did I know ONE SINGLE CALZONE with all toppings would be over $20????? Heck no I didn't, and neither did my friend, and needless to say that calzone with ALL toppings got dropped from our order realllll quick! This was in 2001 or 2002.

[McSpy]

Originally Posted by Skigirl

We're going to have to agree to disagree, because stealing is a pretty risky act for someone who's spent a lot of time worrying about her future, and it seems to me that there would need to be more to it than just wanting a snack. Furthermore, $80 is a lot of pizza if the reports are true that it was all ordered over the course of a few weeks and consumed alone.

Finally, speaking as someone who a) knew quite a few bulimics in college, and b) spent much of her professional life around university psych departments, I can say that not all bulimics start having visible teeth problems - many (most) don't have enamel damage right away, and even when present, that alone doesn't necessarily make teeth gray.

I agree. Sometimes certain medications cause enamel discoloration. It may not have anything to do with an eating disorder.

[McSpy]

Originally Posted by White Rain

$17 doesn't seem that high to me either.....not when most toppings are usually a buck a piece......and wings, OMG are those freaking things outrageous!
This actually reminds me of a time when I called a local place (won't same name!) and I ordered for myself and a friend...well my friend wanted a calzone with ALL toppings.....and I mean your basic pep, sausage, onion, mushroom, black olive, hamburger.....not all the kinda things you can add extra these days like cheddar cheese, meatball, chicken, alfredo sauce, pineapple, etc.....
I was the one ordering for us and the girl on the other end said something along the lines of did I know ONE SINGLE CALZONE with all toppings would be over $20????? Heck no I didn't, and neither did my friend, and needless to say that calzone with ALL toppings got dropped from our order realllll quick! This was in 2001 or 2002.

It all depends where the restaurant is located and how much competition they have. In my area a calzone ranges from about $4.- 6. The $6. calzone is enough for 2 people.

[Skigirl]

Originally Posted by Queen_City

Sorry to derail, I followed this case closely for a while but haven't checked in on it for about 6 months. Does anyone wanna fill me in on the pizza/credit card talk? I can probably just read back but cliffs would be nice too.

James Renner, who's an author of true crime books, has a blog focused on Maura. He did a FOIA request and (I think as a result of the request) received information about her arrest. There's a mug shot of sorts (according to Renner, taken right outside her dorm room), and a copy of a receipt.

The theft came to light when a woman noticed some weird charges on her credit card. Some of the charges were from a local pizza place called Pinnochio's. She called the restaurant and they had the delivery location on file. She then called the police and the police went to that location when the next order was made. They caught Maura alone. She admitted to stealing the number off a receipt she found in the trash.

[Queen_City]

Originally Posted by Skigirl

James Renner, who's an author of true crime books, has a blog focused on Maura. He did a FOIA request and (I think as a result of the request) received information about her arrest. There's a mug shot of sorts (according to Renner, taken right outside her dorm room), and a copy of a receipt.

The theft came to light when a woman noticed some weird charges on her credit card. Some of the charges were from a local pizza place called Pinnochio's. She called the restaurant and they had the delivery location on file. She then called the police and the police went to that location when the next order was made. They caught Maura alone. She admitted to stealing the number off a receipt she found in the trash.

Thanks.. just found the blog and read through it all. Lots of good stuff there... a lot of interesting stuff about Fred too that I never really thought about. Not sure if I believe Fred had anything to do with it... I do tend to believe that she may have been meeting up with someone though after reading some of the information that Renner has pointed out.

[Goldblum]

Originally Posted by jaleach123

The bulimia angle is interesting. Maura was a big track and field runner, if I remember correctly, so it's possible she was quite concerned about her weight.

I am absolutely convinced she had a very serious drinking problem, if she wasn't already an outright alcoholic. Didn't she wreck her father's car after being at a party? Then all the alcohol she bought before taking the trip that was found in her car after the second accident. She'd been drinking while driving, too. I think she was moderately drunk when the accident occurred and, remembering the earlier accident, became quite concerned about the arrival of the police. They would've smelled the alcohol and found the booze in the car, and Maura quite likely would've went to jail on a DUI charge. Family and friends would learn about her drinking problem, and that would shatter the image Maura wanted to project about herself. She took off on foot to get away from the accident. Throw in a possible head injury from the accident coupled with drinking and I think it highly likely she got confused and wandered off into the woods. She got lost and died from exposure. It's possible someone might stumble over her bones out there some day.

There's the issue of the phone call to the boyfriend sometime later, but I've never seen absolute confirmation that the call came from Maura.

Thank you! That's my theory as well. (See my post from a few days back.)

[hmg]

Originally Posted by White Rain

$17 doesn't seem that high to me either.....not when most toppings are usually a buck a piece......and wings, OMG are those freaking things outrageous!

During the sting she ordered a pizza from Pinocchio's in Amherst. I lived in Amherst during 2003 and can verify that a large pizza meant to feed several people was around $12.99/$13.99 at that time and that was for a specialty pizza like buffalo chicken, the price for a plain ole pepperoni and cheese or cheese would be even lower. Believe me when I say that $17 worth of food from Pinocchio's would have been a lot.

I think that's kind of irrelevant though, the true point is that this young lady had a habit of using people's credit cards to buy food. On JR's blog it says she charged $79 worth of food onto this credit card and the number was used multiple times (which was why the sting was set up) at Pinocchio's as well as two other restaurants. That shows a pattern of deception and and since the girl presumably had plenty of money to buy her own pizza it shows that she was trying to conceal her large food consumption, which points to bulimia. Either that or she got a "thrill" out of committing fraud with other people's credit cards, even for small insignificant things. There's just really no other explanation for this type of behavior, especially when it's been speculated that she got kicked out of West Point for the same thing.

[Skigirl]

When I was in Amherst, $10 could get you a HUGE mount of food at Pinnochio's, but I'm older than ya'll. Still, it was the cheap pizza and they always left coupons hanging on our dorm room doors. It was the place to order delivery when you wanted cheap food.

That said, I don't know if she really was after a thrill. It could be that she was so desperate and secretive about the bingeing that she didn't want to charge the food to a card that would leave evidence for loved ones -- if family knows you've got some kind of substance abuse problem, they tend to be on the lookout for signs, whether it's food or drugs -- so when she ran out of cash, she charged it to the stolen card. I recently re-read her boyfriend's mother's reminiscences of Maura, and she mentioned a couple things about Maura's eating habits - that she liked fruit for breakfast and that she ate salad almost every day and was an expert salad maker. My guess is that she ate very healthily most of the time, especially when people were watching, and when she ate junk she went way overboard and was ashamed and guilty and secretive about it.

On another note, dorms don't really tend to have good places to store leftover pizza. If you have a small dorm fridge it usually doesn't have room for pizza, especially in a box. Students don't usually keep tinfoil and the like hanging around. If you put it in a group fridge, it usually gets eaten by someone else or you forget about it. That was my experience, anyway.

[hmg]

Originally Posted by Skigirl

When I was in Amherst, $10 could get you a HUGE mount of food at Pinnochio's, but I'm older than ya'll. Still, it was the cheap pizza and they always left coupons hanging on our dorm room doors. It was the place to order delivery when you wanted cheap food.

That said, I don't know if she really was after a thrill. It could be that she was so desperate and secretive about the bingeing that she didn't want to charge the food to a card that would leave evidence for loved ones -- if family knows you've got some kind of substance abuse problem, they tend to be on the lookout for signs, whether it's food or drugs -- so when she ran out of cash, she charged it to the stolen card. I recently re-read her boyfriend's mother's reminiscences of Maura, and she mentioned a couple things about Maura's eating habits - that she liked fruit for breakfast and that she ate salad almost every day and was an expert salad maker. My guess is that she ate very healthily most of the time, especially when people were watching, and when she ate junk she went way overboard and was ashamed and guilty and secretive about it.

On another note, dorms don't really tend to have good places to store leftover pizza. If you have a small dorm fridge it usually doesn't have room for pizza, especially in a box. Students don't usually keep tinfoil and the like hanging around. If you put it in a group fridge, it usually gets eaten by someone else or you forget about it. That was my experience, anyway.

Yeah actually now that you mention it Pinnochios definitely was one of the cheaper pizza places in Amherst back then. $17 could have very well been for two pizzas.

I think you're right on the money on why she used stolen credit cards. Her outside image was one of model health, especially given her athleticism and her career choice, and I do get the impression the credit card fraud was to hide her secret, especially from her parents. I only meant that thrill seeking would be the only other plausible cause, but it does seem far less likely than bulimia.

[deca]

Stealing because of bulimia might be true- but really couldn't she have just told her dad (if he even noticed the $79 charge among all the other charges and expenses a college student has) that she was buying some pizza for a study group or for her dorm mates and herself?

Of course, that assumes that she didn't have her own cc/checking acct and all her bills were going directly to dad. She wouldn't need to hide her charges from herself!

I guess it would be helpful on this detail to know if dad had reprimanded her on her spending habits. Because when I was in school (around that time) my apartment was $400, books, tuition and other assorted things much more than that ($1000/mo?) and I don't think my parents would have flipped out over it. Maybe asked me to tone it down or something.


I agree with one of the above posters upthread that it might have been the thrill of the steal. Which would go into her other risky behaviors: drinking and driving, taking off in the middle of the night etc. That is, unless she had serious money issues which I don't remember being discussed.

The theft of the cc is puzzling, for sure.

[telemag]

Any word about the skull that was found in VT?

[amber1]

Maura Murray. I first read her story years back when it was published in Seventeen Magazine. I also have just viewed her story on a segment on Disappeared. Her case just baffles me because at first, before she got in an accident, she seemed as if she was running away. Frustrated with life. After that, we really dont have anything to point us in the direction of what may have happened to her. She literally vanished into thin air. Did she call someone to come get her to continue her journey away from the life she had? (But why wouldn't she let her family know she was ok? Would she be ashamed for leaving or running from her problems?) Did someone bad pick her up (Did the wrong stranger happen to see her or did something wrong happen with someone she trusted)? And why did she unexpectedly leave with not much with her to suggest she'd be planning to run away from her life?
This case baffles me so much, it's difficult for me to even draw up a theory. After the bus driver talked to her, there's nothing. No notable leads either.

All we can do is hope she is alive somewhere living the life she wanted to have.

[amber1]

Maura Murray. I first read her story years back when it was published in Seventeen Magazine. I also have just viewed her story on a segment on Disappeared. Her case just baffles me because at first, before she got in an accident, she seemed as if she was running away. Frustrated with life. After that, we really dont have anything to point us in the direction of what may have happened to her. She literally vanished into thin air. Did she call someone to come get her to continue her journey away from the life she had? (But why wouldn't she let her family know she was ok? Would she be ashamed for leaving or running from her problems?) Did someone bad pick her up (Did the wrong stranger happen to see her or did something wrong happen with someone she trusted)? And why did she unexpectedly leave with not much with her to suggest she'd be planning to run away from her life?
This case baffles me so much, it's difficult for me to even draw up a theory. After the bus driver talked to her, there's nothing. No notable leads either.

All we can do is hope she is alive somewhere living the life she wanted to have.

[nitram]

How do we know she was alone when she was caught using the other person's credit card?

[Unscripted]

Originally Posted by nitram

How do we know she was alone when she was caught using the other person's credit card?

Great question. Did she take the fall for someone else? $17 worth is a lot of bargain-priced pizza for one person to consume, even over a couple of days.

[anneonymous]

It's awesome to see all the Pinocchio's love... I miss their barbecue chicken calzones! Maura was probably ordering food for delivery because it's one of the few ways to use a stolen credit card without a physical card. Even online orders check to match the name and shipping/billing address on the account. Restaurants just ask for the number and expiration date over the phone and punch it into their system.

If some or all of the food was meant for someone else, it would be an easy way to convert a stolen number into cash. It's pretty easy to find someone in your dorm who wants to order pizza. She could have collected orders, told everyone she was putting it on her credit card for convenience, and had them pay her in cash.

We also don't know if it's the only thing she attempted to use the stolen number for... just that it's the only thing she SUCCESSFULLY used it for. (For example, she might have tried to order big ticket items over the phone or online and if it rejected the card instantly for a name/shipping address/billing address mismatch, it wouldn't have shown up on the owner's charge card.)

[Skigirl]

Originally Posted by deca

Stealing because of bulimia might be true- but really couldn't she have just told her dad (if he even noticed the $79 charge among all the other charges and expenses a college student has) that she was buying some pizza for a study group or for her dorm mates and herself?

If you've ever loved anyone with a serious eating disorder and have been around the family, you can see that they start to go absolutely CRAZY when they detect signs of bingeing because it worries them so much. A pattern of ordering pizza over a period of weeks would cause alarm and probably attempts at intervention in a family where there's a lot of concern over an eating disorder. The equivalent would be if charges at the local liquor store start showing up on your alcoholic husband's credit card statement. You wouldn't freak out about the $10 or whatever, and it really wouldn't matter if he told you he didn't drink the entire six pack by himself, it would still make you insane.

I have absolutely no way of knowing that this was the case in her family. But there are reasons why someone who's bulimic would steal food or steal a credit card to buy food. It's not being unable to afford it or wanting to steal -- it's about wanting to hide the consumption.

[McSpy]

Originally Posted by nitram

How do we know she was alone when she was caught using the other person's credit card?

Apparently, she got got caught in a sting. She was alone when the delivery was made. JMO