The case for murder

[greenpalm]

Originally Posted by greenpalm

I want to discuss the position of her livor mortis. It just doesn't make sense to me.


http://www.forensicpathologyonline.c...=54&Itemid=116




From Rebecca's autopsy report: "Livor mortis was posterior red and fixed. Both livor and rigor mortis were appropriate for the decedant's position" even if they are referring to her position of having laid in the yard for many hours, the article above addresses how livor changes when a body is moved. I'm going to seek additional info about how long a body must be stationary before livor is truly fixed. It seems if Rebecca died from hanging, and hung for 3-4 hours, her livor mortis would not shift again, but I want to find more info about what happens to livor when a body is moved.

http://www.leelofland.com/wordpress/?p=838
"If the victim is moved during the first six hours after death the purplish discoloration can shift, causing the new, lowest portion of the body to exhibit lividity."

Post Mortem Changes, with pictures of posterior livor mortis: http://emedicine.medscape.com/articl...view#aw2aab6b3


Really good info, the most informative I've found.
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedi.../timedeath.pdf

Frustratingly, what I've found means that, given the window in which we know Rebecca died (9:30pm was her last phone call - rigor had set in by 6:45 when she was cut down) the livor doesn't seem to absolutely indicate that she died on her back. If she was moved fewer than 10 hours after death, what I've read seems to indicate it might be difficult to tell. However… in contradiction, virtually all my readings indicated special circumstances you'd see in a body that was hanged. Given that, it's weird (ie hinky) that these features weren't featured in the AR.

Still, in all, I feel my findings are frustratingly inconclusive. At least I'm better informed about livor mortis.

[CalElliot]

Originally Posted by Mrs. Holmes

I was thinking about the possibility of missing rope length. If they lowered her over the balcony and then realized the rope is too long.. (she is already dead).. they realize it is too long and have to cut a section out of the rope... then she is laid on the ground... he may never have stood on that broke table and I would like to see someone try and stand on it.

This would explain if their is missing rope.. and where is it? Also they should be able to tell if the cut parts MATCH up?

Good point.

[Morag]

Originally Posted by Mrs. Holmes

(SNIP)

. I believe this was the first night RZ was alone in the main house because her sister had been taken to the airport. It is the first night he can confront her about the death of his son? He loses it and kills her. Poor woman.

BBM


And it was one of 'the' nights that the renter couple (who were seen hurriedly moving their possessions out) just happened to be away. Now I ask you, why would someone rent a lovely place in a premier area of a gem of a California village in the height of the season- and then go and sleep somewhere else? I could understand why they might have left after Max was injured, but did they? Were they given an incentive to be away the next evening? IIRC, they were seen hurriedly moving out on the day Rebecca was found dead, but we were told- sorry, no link-that they had not been there the evening before.

[TorisMom003]

One thing to remember when thinking about the livor mortis, Rebecca was on her left side with her arms behind her back and her knees and legs bent while on the grass. If the livor mortis shows an even area across her back as opposed to more on her left side then it could not have been due to her being on the grass for all of those hours after Adam "cut her down".

MOO

[lauriej]

Originally Posted by time

I would think all of the rope needs to be accounted for. Was that new rope? Did they claim it had been used before, should be able to tell.

I'm leaving the question of how she was hanged and if it caused her death!

..this is how sgt. nemeth explains the rope at the press conference..

http://www.10news.com/video/29065367/index.html
---approx. 36:40---press conference september 2/2011-

Sgt.Nemeth: She located a rope, possibly from the garage.

We found a shelf in the garage that had boating items,and the rope was of the type you would use to tow a person on an inner tube or something of that manner behind a boat.

There was a void on that shelf, it, it was a full shelf up until a certain point where there was a void about that wide that was empty.

The homeowner wasn’t sure if there was a rope in that location, but it’s possible that’s where she found the rope.

---------seriously, the "suicide weapon" and it's "possible" that's where it came from?

[time]

Originally Posted by TorisMom003

One thing to remember when thinking about the livor mortis, Rebecca was on her left side with her arms behind her back and her knees and legs bent while on the grass. If the livor mortis shows an even area across her back as opposed to more on her left side then it could not have been due to her being on the grass for all of those hours after Adam "cut her down".

MOO

Good point! I wish I could read autopsies fluently, but I imagine much is contained in the pictures also.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by lauriej

..this is how sgt. nemeth explains the rope at the press conference..

http://www.10news.com/video/29065367/index.html
---approx. 36:40---press conference september 2/2011-




---------seriously, the "suicide weapon" and it's "possible" that's where it came from?

Were these questions asked to JS: do you own a boat or rent one? Do you own a tube, skis, wakeboard? Where do you keep these things? How many tow ropes do you have? If there is one missing in the garage, was his boat checked? And speaking as a recreational boat owner, you know what equipment you own. You know the tow rope you like the best, at least my kids will make sure they have the one they like- because of the length/grip/etc. And didn't the rope have a handle on it? If so then it would be for waterskiing, wake boarding, kneeboarding, not for towing a tube. IMO

[Yoda]

Also, who usually buys the boat supplies? Where from?
Was there skis or in the garage? If not then why the rope? Does the family do a lot of waterskiing/wake boarding when they are there? And then the same questions asked to DS and AS.

[lauriej]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Were these questions asked to JS: do you own a boat or rent one? Do you own a tube, skis, wakeboard? Where do you keep these things? How many tow ropes do you have? If there is one missing in the garage, was his boat checked? And speaking as a recreational boat owner, you know what equipment you own. You know the tow rope you like the best, at least my kids will make sure they have the one they like- because of the length/grip/etc. And didn't the rope have a handle on it? If so then it would be for waterskiing, wake boarding, kneeboarding, not for towing a tube. IMO

..there was a handle on the rope, wrapped around her ankles.

..from the autopsy report:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...ZTYzYmY5&hl=en
--page 11--AR--

Ankles:

Wrapped within the bindings is a yellow plastic tube which encircles one strand of thicker rope which appears to be a water sport tow rope handle. There is a warning on the yellow handle stating among other things----intended only for towing up to 2 people or 340 lbs. on an inflatable tube.

[Yoda]

Thanks LaurieJ. I was thinking handle as in actual handle, but if it says it is for towing than it is more likely just a sheath over part of the rope at one end. That would mean IMO towables and not skis, wake boards.

[Mrs. Holmes]

I noted that they referred to the "home owner" not sure if a rope was in the house. Why not use JS's name or Mr. Shacknai for that matter?

[Mrs. Holmes]

Wow I just read one of the search warrants from July 15 and it seems obvious to me they thought RZ had killed MS and her suicide was her reaction. Even though she has been found dead they seem more interested in finding information about how she killed Max and not what happened to HER.

It turns out he died as a result of spinal injuries that caused the cardiac arrest.

[AZlawyer]

One of the things that convinces me that this was a murder and not suicide is that people who try the FIRST time to commit suicide don't anticipate--given their state of mind--that they will try to fight death when it comes. So such a person would not think to tie themselves up or gag themselves. That sort of planning comes from previous unsuccessful suicide attempts. Specifically, the self-gagging would come from a previous attempt in which she had disabled herself physically from resisting, but then called out and was saved. So there would have been a witness to that event. And the self-restraint used in that attempt would have been used because of an even earlier attempt in which she freed herself before dying. So IMO a "suicide" like this one would be at least a third attempt--and there is no info whatsoever about RZ ever previously attempting suicide or even being mentally inclined toward such a thing.

[greenpalm]

Originally Posted by Mrs. Holmes

Wow I just read one of the search warrants from July 15 and it seems obvious to me they thought RZ had killed MS and her suicide was her reaction. Even though she has been found dead they seem more interested in finding information about how she killed Max and not what happened to HER.

It turns out he died as a result of spinal injuries that caused the cardiac arrest.

I agree, but it's more an intuitive sense, than something specific from the search warrant. What leaned you that way?

[Mrs. Holmes]

Originally Posted by greenpalm

I agree, but it's more an intuitive sense, than something specific from the search warrant. What leaned you that way?

CalElliot
Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 246

Three other warrants released:
Attached Thumbnails

__________________

From the RZ reference forum... 41920.PDF

This is on July15th just and this warrant is about obtaining information regarding Max's injury and HER DEATH is secondary to the search warrant and she is DEAD. I read this that they are looking for information on how Max died and her SUICIDE is added evidence she had something to do with his accident..

Imagine... Jonah must be aware what is his state of mind!!!

[Pach]

Not sure if posted. Here's a new Forbes Business magazine news article on the Coronado case:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/shenegot...-mansion-case/

9/25/2011 @ 12:45PM
Money, Mystery, Murder(?) in Spreckels Mansion Case

By Victoria Pynchon

“A woman screams for help at 11:30 p.m. in a 27-room historic mansion in Coronado, California; a 6-year-old child, Max Shacknai, has fallen two days earlier and is in critical condition; the millionaire boyfriend and father of the child, Jonah Shacknai, and his girlfriend, Rebecca Zahau, have been consumed by the boy’s care and condition in the hospital.”

So writes litigator and legal analyst Anne Bremner in her post More Questions than Answers – Justice Requires that Rebecca Zahau Case Be Reopened over at guest contributor Cathy Scott’s true crime home Women in Crime, Ink.

We’ve reported on the Zahau case ourselves here and here. My own last post noted that the San Diego Sheriff’s office agreed to re-open the case if they had any new leads. If you read Bremner’s article, there appear to be new leads aplenty. Yet the Zahau family’s continued calls for the investigation to recommence appear to be falling on deaf ears.

Why We Follow Money, Murder and Possible Corruption

She Negotiates is a deal-making blog for women hosted by the women’s business page of a mainstream financial magazine, Forbes.com. So why would we cover the purported suicide (and possible murder) of the live-in girlfriend of a pharmaceutical company CEO?

And why does the family persist in its belief that Rebecca Zahau met with foul play even though the state attorney general just last week declined Jonah Shacknai’s request to review San Diego County law enforcement findings about the deaths of his girlfriend and his 6-year-old son?

Why We Write

Whether Rebecca Zahau committed suicide or is the victim of foul play is less a concern for us than the possibility of corruption in the justice system. I don’t mean to sound callous. Of course a young women’s suicide or murder is tragic and heartbreaking. But that’s not why we write.

Guest contributor Cathy Scott writes because murder is her true crime gig. I write about the possible corruption of the justice system because the act of negotiation is the act of a free people and the principled basis for a free and vital economy.

Our freedom to contract is as important as our freedom of speech, assembly and religion. Every time we negotiate an agreement, we place our trust in the legal system to enforce that agreement if our bargaining partner turns out to be a snake oil salesman or is simply incapable of doing what she promised she would do in exchange for the promises we’ve made to her.

If we can’t trust the justice system to be . . . just . . . then we burden our economic energy with self-enforcement a la the Sopranos. And you know how ugly – not to mention time-consuming – that can be.

Criminal vs. Civil Justice

The line between the criminal and civil justice systems is not a bright and obvious one as the prosecution of civil cases following high profile criminal exonerations have proven. Think O.J. criminal (not guilty) vs. O.J. civil (“guilty”). A failure of the criminal justice system imperils the civil justice system as well because it diminishes the trust people and business place in its equitable functioning.

And those people currently occupying Wall Street aren’t feeling the love of either the economy or the justice system right now. Faith in both systems is a necessary pre-condition to an orderly society that also values free expression and the fair distribution of resources.

I do not write about the Zahau family’s request for the criminal investigation to be reopened because I have an opinion about suicide vs. murder or some other type of wrongdoing. I write about it because questions have been raised and remain unanswered. Because the law should not, cannot distinguish between the investigation of a suspicious death from the balcony of a millionaire’s mansion and one from the fire-escape of a housing project. It should not, cannot distinguish between a suspect who is the CEO of a Fortune 500 company and one who is a barista at Starbucks.

Why It’s Personal

I also write because Mr. Shacknai’s PR firm – Sitrick and Company - took the trouble to view my profile on LinkedIn after I posted Cathy Scott’s first article on the Zahau death. I didn’t like that, particularly because they weren’t simply looking for contact information, not having bothered to contact me.

It felt creepy. I don’t expect anything like it to ever happen again.

Anne Bremner, the attorney whose reporting we quote here, represents Rebecca Zahua’s family as they press authorities for a more thorough investigation into Rebecca’s death. Click here if you wish to donate to the Rebecca Zahau Fund.

About the Author - http://blogs.forbes.com/people/victoriapynchon/

[Pach]

are we looking at a possible cause for a possible motive here then ? I didn't backread , pardon my grey poupon.

Originally Posted by Mrs. Holmes:
Wow I just read one of the search warrants from July 15 and it seems obvious to me they thought RZ had killed MS and her suicide was her reaction. Even though she has been found dead they seem more interested in finding information about how she killed Max and not what happened to HER.

It turns out he died as a result of spinal injuries that caused the cardiac arrest.

Originally Posted by greenpalm

I agree, but it's more an intuitive sense, than something specific from the search warrant. What leaned you that way?

[deanna82437]

Interesting comment on the below site that I posted yesterday. Written by writeaboutit. A MUST READ.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/shenegot...-mansion-case/

[CalElliot]

Originally Posted by AZlawyer

One of the things that convinces me that this was a murder and not suicide is that people who try the FIRST time to commit suicide don't anticipate--given their state of mind--that they will try to fight death when it comes. So such a person would not think to tie themselves up or gag themselves. That sort of planning comes from previous unsuccessful suicide attempts. Specifically, the self-gagging would come from a previous attempt in which she had disabled herself physically from resisting, but then called out and was saved. So there would have been a witness to that event. And the self-restraint used in that attempt would have been used because of an even earlier attempt in which she freed herself before dying. So IMO a "suicide" like this one would be at least a third attempt--and there is no info whatsoever about RZ ever previously attempting suicide or even being mentally inclined toward such a thing.

Great point. The trouble with this whole case is the focus on investigating the victim rather than POI and potential suspects. Next step is to get the 911 calls released.

A HUGE red flag that LE is trying to block this. Why? And at whose bidding?

[defense101]

Originally Posted by CalElliot

Great point. The trouble with this whole case is the focus on investigating the victim rather than POI and potential suspects. Next step is to get the 911 calls released.

A HUGE red flag that LE is trying to block this. Why? And at whose bidding?

bbm
Now that I can't wait to hear!

[Pach]

are there legal grounds or precedents in previous cases for blocking the release of 911 calls ?

Originally Posted by CalElliot

Great point. The trouble with this whole case is the focus on investigating the victim rather than POI and potential suspects. Next step is to get the 911 calls released.

A HUGE red flag that LE is trying to block this. Why? And at whose bidding?

[sorrell skye]

Originally Posted by Mrs. Holmes

Wow I just read one of the search warrants from July 15 and it seems obvious to me they thought RZ had killed MS and her suicide was her reaction. Even though she has been found dead they seem more interested in finding information about how she killed Max and not what happened to HER.

It turns out he died as a result of spinal injuries that caused the cardiac arrest.

At the very least, it's apparent that LE was investigating MS's accident as a possible child abuse case/homicide, based on the probable cause hearing of July 15, 2011 for search warrant (#41920).

Page 6, line 21, DDA Cano asked Det. Adkins:

Detective, what training and experience do you have regarding the investigation of child abuse?

Det. Adkins goes on to list his pertinent experience.

Reading down further, page 8 of the probable cause hearing, beginning @ line 19:

At approximately 648 in the morning, Coronado Police Department received a radio call of a female who had hung herself at the above listed address.

Based on Det. Adkins testimony in court, it does seem as if consensus had already been reached with regards to suicide (but I will add that Det. Adkins is with the Coronado PD & may have been out of the loop of RZ's death investigation).

Here's the part I find most interesting - on page 11, Det. Adkins conveys his reasons for wanting to seal the search warrant, one of the reasons being (lines 19-21):

We do not wish to divulge the information contained within these documents for fear that the perpetrators can destroy evidence.

This search warrant was applied for & granted on July 15, 2011. RZ died two days prior on July 13.

My question: Since Det. Adkins was clearly investigating MS's death as a possible child abuse/homicide case, and RZ had died 2 days prior, who is the possible perpetrator(s) that he feared might destroy evidence?

Certainly not RZ. She was deceased, so it was obviously impossible for her to destroy evidence if the search warrants were made public.

ETA: Gosh - after reading my post, I'm not sure if it even belongs in this thread. I apologize for the off-topic, but I was responding to an earlier post. Perhaps I should move it to another thread.

ETA II: If the medical personnel & LE had relayed their suspicions regarding possible child abuse/homicide to MS's parents, and these suspicions were relayed to other family members - in my mind, that may provide motive for RZ's death, if RZ was murdered. There - now I'm on topic.

But I would still like to know who Det. Adkins was referring to when he testified that he feared the perpetrators might destroy evidence.

[CalElliot]

Originally Posted by Pach

are there legal grounds or precedents in previous cases for blocking the release of 911 calls ?

I'm sure there are, but given CA law protects 911 calls as public record, and a judge has overruled Coronado LE on search warrants, I expect they will eventually be released.

[Mrs. Holmes]

I think the perpetrator line for fear of destroying evidence would be a standard line in a search warrant.

I would think in their minds her suicide would further convince the police that RZ was likely the guilty party in Max's accident. Suicide is often seen as the actions of the GUILTY.

I think we have scene cases before that even after death a person in implicated in a crime?

[Mrs. Holmes]

I think LE in this case has their own guilt. They were investigating Max's accident and as a result of that investigation a woman died. Wether it was suicide or murder it was clearly as a result of Max's accident and the investigation certainly fanned the flames.

Imagine their surprise when they realize Max's death was an accident and not the result of murder or manslaughter? They have numerous reasons to make this all go away as fast as possible.

Thank goodness for RZ's family not dropping the ball on this and pushing for answers.