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  #376  
Old 10-04-2011, 07:40 PM
BossLady BossLady is offline
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The altercation at SW

So, I've been following this case silently since the beginning. For some reason I have been captured by it like many of you. I'm from southern Indiana and went to another IN university. I moved out of the state years ago and I don't know much about btown.

Anyways, the altercation at SW intrigues me for some reason. I keep thinking that if I was CR and was 'punched' I wouldn't just go home to bed and I wouldn't let the guy (ZO or whomever) or group get away with it. I also don't think I'd keep quiet about it when I was out with people or partying. It just seems like ok he was punched and then nothing. Yeah maybe he's keeping a low profile about it. But there has to be some talk as to why or to who it was that punched CR. We read there was a group so it means more than one person was with the person who punched CR. If you were punched wouldn't you want to get back at him at some point? Or maybe see him out partying and have words? It's just odd to me. It's been four months surely there will be another altercation between these people?

What is ZO and crew up to these days? We hear so much about the others.

Last edited by BossLady; 10-04-2011 at 07:54 PM. Reason: Type
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  #377  
Old 10-04-2011, 09:36 PM
imkeylime imkeylime is offline
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Originally Posted by BossLady View Post
So, I've been following this case silently since the beginning. For some reason I have been captured by it like many of you. I'm from southern Indiana and went to another IN university. I moved out of the state years ago and I don't know much about btown.

Anyways, the altercation at SW intrigues me for some reason. I keep thinking that if I was CR and was 'punched' I wouldn't just go home to bed and I wouldn't let the guy (ZO or whomever) or group get away with it. I also don't think I'd keep quiet about it when I was out with people or partying. It just seems like ok he was punched and then nothing. Yeah maybe he's keeping a low profile about it. But there has to be some talk as to why or to who it was that punched CR. We read there was a group so it means more than one person was with the person who punched CR. If you were punched wouldn't you want to get back at him at some point? Or maybe see him out partying and have words? It's just odd to me. It's been four months surely there will be another altercation between these people?

What is ZO and crew up to these days? We hear so much about the others.
Welcome! You raise a good point ... there's more than one "silence" surrounding this case. IDK the answer to that, but it's worth considering. IMO, if LS followed CR from SW (if that's how it actually happened?), it's almost like she "chose sides." Maybe I'm wrong about that ... maybe she was just concerned or had plans elsewhere. But it's food for thought ...
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  #378  
Old 10-05-2011, 01:06 AM
AbbeyR AbbeyR is offline
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I've wondered the same thing about ZO and the 'altercation', Bosslady.

On a (somewhat) related note, in a moment of insomnia/ snoopiness one night, I discovered this site: http://spotcrime.com/ where you can view crime by address or city/date. I was curious whether it would turn up anything that might confirm some earlier rumours about ZO, but I didn't see anything (I didn't look very hard though). But, I did stumble across another random bit of weirdness: Early this year, another person in this crowd of friends, who lives down the street from ZO, reported a burglary where they "had the door kicked in by unknown subjects". Burglary, fine.. but a door kicked in by strangers? And one day later (or that night) one of the roommates was arrested for assault.... hmmm.

This doesn't really have anything to do with LS, but I'm posting it as an observation that the amount of arrests and reports of violence that are on record about people in this social scene seems totally weird to me. I know some of that may be explained by the frequency of underage drinking charges in Bloomington, but still... In all of my partying through university, I did not know a single person who was arrested for anything... It just makes me wonder about how often things go 'too far' in this group and makes me think that the possibility that a violent crime could be committed in this setting is not so unfathomable.

Last edited by AbbeyR; 10-05-2011 at 01:20 AM.
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  #379  
Old 10-05-2011, 09:30 AM
doubtingthomas doubtingthomas is offline
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I have been following this site for some time now and even commented a few times. I would like to relay a conversation I had last night with a good friend of mine.

My friend’s daughter graduated from IU Bloomington in 2009. She is living there now
and told her this conversation. A very good friend of the daughters is a bartender in Btown. She has taken it upon herself to watch out for the young girls who like to party
hard in Btown.

On the night LS disappeared, the bartender had gotten off work and drove by Smallwood
on her way home. She saw a young girl outside of Smallwood who looked completely
wasted. A male person was walking down the sidewalk towards her. She turned her vehicle around and went back. She asked the girl if she was ok. The male person responded, “She is with me”. Again she asked the girl if she was ok. Again, he responded, “I said she is with me”. The bartender went home.

The next night when she went to work she relayed the story to her co-workers. They asked her what the girl was wearing. When she told them, black slacks with a white top they informed her that the girl was missing.

The bartender went to the police and told them the story and gave them a description of the male person.

I was not given any times of when this happened. So, I am assuming the usual time the bars close. If this were the case then LS would have been unable to help anyone get home. If the male person was CR, then he was coherent enough to talk to the bartender. If it was not CR, then we have another person involved. I am sure that this would have been caught on video outside the apartment.
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  #380  
Old 10-05-2011, 10:46 AM
AnalyticalExaminer AnalyticalExaminer is offline
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Originally Posted by doubtingthomas View Post
I was not given any times of when this happened. So, I am assuming the usual time the bars close.
This must be wrong, if your other assumption that they were captured on camera is correct. LS's only appearances on camera outside SW are leaving for the night (around 12:30), returning after Sports (around 2:30) and then leaving after the altercation (around 2:40). Indiana law allows bars to stay open until 3AM (when Sports closes), and staff are permitted at least another half hour for cleanup.

Therefore, if the report is true, either the reporter comes from a bar that closes earlier, or (she was not on camera and) the report comes from after 3AM, and more likely towards or after 3:30, and does not tell us anything definitive about her condition or who she was with at 2:40.

There is also the possibility that some info got changed in telephone translation. Given the specificity of the report, I have to ask, why was it not also specified whether the individual resembled any of the POI (and which one)?
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  #381  
Old 10-05-2011, 11:00 AM
AnalyticalExaminer AnalyticalExaminer is offline
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One note relevant to the above: LS and CR left SW at 2:42. They entered or were within the Southern part of the alley at 2:48. That six minutes seems to be about twice as long as it should take to walk that distance under normal circumstances (per google maps). I'm not sure if the same is true of the 3 minutes it took them to walk the alley. That may give some credence to the above report (assuming the report referred to the 2:45 timeframe), but it also suggests that whatever was observed by the reporter was either resolved by the time they entered the alley or also observed on the alley cameras.
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  #382  
Old 10-05-2011, 11:43 AM
elmorejames elmorejames is offline
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Originally Posted by AnalyticalExaminer View Post
This must be wrong, if your other assumption that they were captured on camera is correct. LS's only appearances on camera outside SW are leaving for the night (around 12:30), returning after Sports (around 2:30) and then leaving after the altercation (around 2:40). Indiana law allows bars to stay open until 3AM (when Sports closes), and staff are permitted at least another half hour for cleanup.

Therefore, if the report is true, either the reporter comes from a bar that closes earlier, or (she was not on camera and) the report comes from after 3AM, and more likely towards or after 3:30, and does not tell us anything definitive about her condition or who she was with at 2:40.

There is also the possibility that some info got changed in telephone translation. Given the specificity of the report, I have to ask, why was it not also specified whether the individual resembled any of the POI (and which one)?

Some bartenders and waiters get "cut" early because they were the ones one who came in early and started their shifts early.

This is very possible.
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  #383  
Old 10-05-2011, 11:48 AM
AnalyticalExaminer AnalyticalExaminer is offline
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Originally Posted by elmorejames View Post
Some bartenders and waiters get "cut" early because they were the ones one who came in early and started their shifts early.

This is very possible.
I did suggest it's possible if the bar closes earlier than 3. If not, your hypothesis is that this bartender left 20-30 minutes before closing. Is that something that would be common?
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  #384  
Old 10-05-2011, 11:56 AM
bloom54 bloom54 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doubtingthomas View Post
I have been following this site for some time now and even commented a few times. I would like to relay a conversation I had last night with a good friend of mine.

My friend’s daughter graduated from IU Bloomington in 2009. She is living there now
and told her this conversation. A very good friend of the daughters is a bartender in Btown. She has taken it upon herself to watch out for the young girls who like to party
hard in Btown.

On the night LS disappeared, the bartender had gotten off work and drove by Smallwood
on her way home. She saw a young girl outside of Smallwood who looked completely
wasted. A male person was walking down the sidewalk towards her. She turned her vehicle around and went back. She asked the girl if she was ok. The male person responded, “She is with me”. Again she asked the girl if she was ok. Again, he responded, “I said she is with me”. The bartender went home.

The next night when she went to work she relayed the story to her co-workers. They asked her what the girl was wearing. When she told them, black slacks with a white top they informed her that the girl was missing.

The bartender went to the police and told them the story and gave them a description of the male person.

I was not given any times of when this happened. So, I am assuming the usual time the bars close. If this were the case then LS would have been unable to help anyone get home. If the male person was CR, then he was coherent enough to talk to the bartender. If it was not CR, then we have another person involved. I am sure that this would have been caught on video outside the apartment.
This sounds VERY similar to the witness that TonyGatto talked to...
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  #385  
Old 10-05-2011, 11:58 AM
AnalyticalExaminer AnalyticalExaminer is offline
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Originally Posted by bloom54 View Post
This sounds VERY similar to the witness that TonyGatto talked to...
Though, if true, it's clearly a different witness, as TG's put LS+mystery person at 10th and College, and this report puts them at SW (though, if after 2:42, they were not captured on camera).
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  #386  
Old 10-05-2011, 12:05 PM
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OldSteve OldSteve is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doubtingthomas View Post
I have been following this site for some time now and even commented a few times. I would like to relay a conversation I had last night with a good friend of mine.

My friend’s daughter graduated from IU Bloomington in 2009. She is living there now
and told her this conversation. A very good friend of the daughters is a bartender in Btown. She has taken it upon herself to watch out for the young girls who like to party
hard in Btown.

On the night LS disappeared, the bartender had gotten off work and drove by Smallwood
on her way home. She saw a young girl outside of Smallwood who looked completely
wasted. A male person was walking down the sidewalk towards her. She turned her vehicle around and went back. She asked the girl if she was ok. The male person responded, “She is with me”. Again she asked the girl if she was ok. Again, he responded, “I said she is with me”. The bartender went home.

The next night when she went to work she relayed the story to her co-workers. They asked her what the girl was wearing. When she told them, black slacks with a white top they informed her that the girl was missing.

The bartender went to the police and told them the story and gave them a description of the male person.

I was not given any times of when this happened. So, I am assuming the usual time the bars close. If this were the case then LS would have been unable to help anyone get home. If the male person was CR, then he was coherent enough to talk to the bartender. If it was not CR, then we have another person involved. I am sure that this would have been caught on video outside the apartment.
Sounds like info that should be given to LE.
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  #387  
Old 10-05-2011, 12:31 PM
bloom54 bloom54 is offline
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Originally Posted by OldSteve View Post
Sounds like info that should be given to LE.
It says that she did go to LE and gave them a report..
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  #388  
Old 10-05-2011, 12:35 PM
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Darcyline Darcyline is offline
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That story could be fit into what we know, but I am assuming the man has to be CR unless there is a hell of a bombshell waiting on the alley video. Doesn't entirely change much for me except maybe making CR more sober and Lauren less. Unless the man isn't CR and then that changes everything.
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  #389  
Old 10-05-2011, 01:43 PM
Jupiter812 Jupiter812 is offline
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Originally Posted by bloom54 View Post
This sounds VERY similar to the witness that TonyGatto talked to...
It does. Since this report is three times removed from the witness account, 10th and College could easily have become Smallwood in the telephone game.

Because of her description, I assumed the original bartender was on foot, not in a car. To be driving south on College would mean she either works at Jakes or, well, I can't think of any others located north of the center. Not that matters.
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  #390  
Old 10-05-2011, 01:49 PM
Jupiter812 Jupiter812 is offline
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Originally Posted by AnalyticalExaminer View Post
One note relevant to the above: LS and CR left SW at 2:42. They entered or were within the Southern part of the alley at 2:48. That six minutes seems to be about twice as long as it should take to walk that distance under normal circumstances (per google maps). I'm not sure if the same is true of the 3 minutes it took them to walk the alley. That may give some credence to the above report (assuming the report referred to the 2:45 timeframe), but it also suggests that whatever was observed by the reporter was either resolved by the time they entered the alley or also observed on the alley cameras.
Three minutes to get through the alley is a long time, comparatively. They must have stopped. It is half the distance, if not less, and clean and nicely paved whereas much of the first section is rough gravel.
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  #391  
Old 10-05-2011, 01:49 PM
AnalyticalExaminer AnalyticalExaminer is offline
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That story could be fit into what we know, but I am assuming the man has to be CR unless there is a hell of a bombshell waiting on the alley video.
No, (assuming this actually happened in the first place,) the guy does not have to be CR, as long as it happened any time after 2:55. While that would not be possible if it happened in front of SW's cameras, my understanding is that there is a lot of sidewalk in front of SW that is not on camera.
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  #392  
Old 10-05-2011, 01:50 PM
AnalyticalExaminer AnalyticalExaminer is offline
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To be driving south on College would mean she either works at Jakes or, .
The claim is that she turned around, which means she would have been driving North, no?
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  #393  
Old 10-05-2011, 01:56 PM
Jupiter812 Jupiter812 is offline
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The claim is that she turned around, which means she would have been driving North, no?
College is a one-way street, south. If she works at Jakes (one-way north), she may have had to get on College if she lives south of town. She would have to turn on another street and go around the block in order to be on College again.
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  #394  
Old 10-05-2011, 02:00 PM
doubtingthomas doubtingthomas is offline
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Originally Posted by Darcyline View Post
That story could be fit into what we know, but I am assuming the man has to be CR unless there is a hell of a bombshell waiting on the alley video. Doesn't entirely change much for me except maybe making CR more sober and Lauren less. Unless the man isn't CR and then that changes everything.
I posted this for a couple reasons. Since the story was told to me third hand my assumption was the friend telling me was not aware of all the people involved. Therefore I did not ask the question of what time did this occur and who the male person was. I have now asked the daughter these questions. I will post an answer if I get one. I had the same feeling as Darcyline in that if the male person was CR, then he was more coherent than I thought. As Darcyline says, if not CR, then that changes things. I also thought of the person TonyGatto talked to but dismissed as the same person because of location. But now there seems to be 2 people claiming to have seen her. Maybe this is what RS is referring to when he wants more people to come forward thinking others saw something that night also.
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  #395  
Old 10-05-2011, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AnalyticalExaminer View Post
No, (assuming this actually happened in the first place,) the guy does not have to be CR, as long as it happened any time after 2:55. While that would not be possible if it happened in front of SW's cameras, my understanding is that there is a lot of sidewalk in front of SW that is not on camera.
The story as told now says outside of Smallwood so I assumed that would mean when LS originally left Smallwood. I guess it is possible she walked CR home, walked back to Smallwood, and then exited again with another man and somehow wasn't caught on camera for the second trip.
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  #396  
Old 10-05-2011, 03:22 PM
Jupiter812 Jupiter812 is offline
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Originally Posted by doubtingthomas View Post
I have been following this site for some time now and even commented a few times. I would like to relay a conversation I had last night with a good friend of mine.

My friend’s daughter graduated from IU Bloomington in 2009. She is living there now
and told her this conversation. A very good friend of the daughters is a bartender in Btown. She has taken it upon herself to watch out for the young girls who like to party
hard in Btown.

On the night LS disappeared, the bartender had gotten off work and drove by Smallwood
on her way home. She saw a young girl outside of Smallwood who looked completely
wasted. A male person was walking down the sidewalk towards her. She turned her vehicle around and went back. She asked the girl if she was ok. The male person responded, “She is with me”. Again she asked the girl if she was ok. Again, he responded, “I said she is with me”. The bartender went home.

The next night when she went to work she relayed the story to her co-workers. They asked her what the girl was wearing. When she told them, black slacks with a white top they informed her that the girl was missing.

The bartender went to the police and told them the story and gave them a description of the male person.

I was not given any times of when this happened. So, I am assuming the usual time the bars close. If this were the case then LS would have been unable to help anyone get home. If the male person was CR, then he was coherent enough to talk to the bartender. If it was not CR, then we have another person involved. I am sure that this would have been caught on video outside the apartment.
I don't like this guy's attitude. By his choice of words he sounds territorial and defensive. And the fact that they were not walking together is unexpected to me. It could be she couldn't keep up tho.

OTOH it's a bit curious that the bartender would retell the story to her co-workers the next day; OTOH maybe she shares all of her episodes this way, and/or she felt concerned.
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  #397  
Old 10-05-2011, 03:37 PM
AnalyticalExaminer AnalyticalExaminer is offline
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The story as told now says outside of Smallwood so I assumed that would mean when LS originally left Smallwood. I guess it is possible she walked CR home, walked back to Smallwood, and then exited again with another man and somehow wasn't caught on camera for the second trip.
I don't believe she could have returned to SW without being captured on camera. What I was suggesting is that after leaving CR/MB's, whether before or after arriving at JR's, she and another person were on College Ave, perhaps in the Northern half of the block between 8th and 9th Streets, without traveling in front of the Smallwood entrance camera. She presumably returned, or was taken, back North along College or in some other off-camera direction.
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  #398  
Old 10-05-2011, 08:06 PM
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I don't like this guy's attitude. By his choice of words he sounds territorial and defensive. And the fact that they were not walking together is unexpected to me. It could be she couldn't keep up tho.
But you're basing your opinion on hearsay. Not to mention it's a 'friend of a friend' retelling of the event (where each retelling might not be 100% accurate, especially in small details). And then besides that, it has the issue of hindsight and the possibility of false memories involved. If the guy was so nefarious and evil sounding then why did the bartender go on home? Perhaps in light of the news of that night the bartender is remembering things a little differently.

Or else in the retelling of the story the embellishment comes not only with time but as other people interpret the story and retell it themselves. It's just human nature.

Quote:
OTOH it's a bit curious that the bartender would retell the story to her co-workers the next day; OTOH maybe she shares all of her episodes this way, and/or she felt concerned.
I'm not sure it would be that curious. Perhaps the whole scene didn't sit right with her from the beginning and part of her immediately wished she'd handled the situation differently and she felt it was odd enough to retell. Then once the news broke of course she'd be second guessing herself and telling others of what she'd seen.... IMHO...

It makes you wonder how many reports like this the police have that distract from one theory or another of their's. Assuming this story to be true, where does it fit in the timeline? If before they entered Smallwood then it still leaves CR's story of being punched and disoriented still viable. If immediately after they left SW then it does call into question her ability to be doing anything (coherently) the rest of that night/morning. But then, what if it occurs after she left supposedly left JR's?

Also, info like we're seeing here isn't likely to make its way to the PI's if they don't pound the pavement and discover it on their own. The police wouldn't share it. Only if the police shared it with the family would it possibly make it to the PI's to investigate. Who is to say exactly what the police really share with the family? More importantly, who is to say which leads the police follow the hardest? If something doesn't fit their best theory of the crime I have to wonder how much weight they'd give an unsubstantiated story, and especially if they'd tend to think the sighting must be wrong or convince themselves the witnesses recollection of the time must be wrong.
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:24 PM
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This just occurs to me... and I'm not usually one to suggest scenarios...

but what if...

what if this really took place at 10th & College, rather than SW... and what IF the person walking towards her were JR....
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:31 PM
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But you're basing your opinion on hearsay. Not to mention it's a 'friend of a friend' retelling of the event (where each retelling might not be 100% accurate, especially in small details). And then besides that, it has the issue of hindsight and the possibility of false memories involved. If the guy was so nefarious and evil sounding then why did the bartender go on home? Perhaps in light of the news of that night the bartender is remembering things a little differently.

Or else in the retelling of the story the embellishment comes not only with time but as other people interpret the story and retell it themselves. It's just human nature.
Perhaps you missed the part where I said the same thing about this entire account, how it three times removed, above. That doesn't stop me from responding to the information at hand and the only quoted words that were reported. I think it makes sense and others do too. "Nefarious" and "evil"?? Those are your words, not mine.
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