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Rebecca Zahau Nalepa Was Rebecca's death a homicide or a suicide?


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  #526  
Old 09-25-2011, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
Search warrant says the hospital was going to make a complaint to CPS on July 14th.
Ok, that is different. I appreciate you filling me as I am still catching up and have missed some things. I still don't see why the hospital would have done this without more opinions, advanced testing, and waiting till the autopsy and/or to see if Dina and Jonah were going to make that decision soon. They seem possibly culpable to me for not doing those things although I completely understand why they made the initial evaluation of suffocation. I'm a bit dumfounded by them not checking this out to the logical, medical decision making end even if it is rare since accusations of child abuse/neglect or murder are so serious.
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Old 09-25-2011, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
I'd rather hear her explanation as to why she couldn't hear MS ride a scooter or run or jump or fall or crash a chandelier or whatever the current theory is, but she could hear RZ call her name, all while in the shower and/or blow drying her hair (different accounts were given to different police officers).
I've not seen it stated anywhere that XZ did not hear a crash. Have you? If so, can you supply a link? TIA
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  #528  
Old 09-25-2011, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by curiousjo View Post
I agree that XZ just flew in Sunday night. Where did you read XZ suppose to stay 2 weeks?
Quote:
Zahau started giving Max mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and yelled up to the only other person in the house, her 13-year-old sister, Xena, to call 911. Xena had arrived the day before from St. Joseph, Mo., for a two-week visit, and had just stepped out of the shower and was blowing out her hair.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...o-mansion.html

The brother-in-law confirmed that and the shopping trip in a recent interview. The link to that should be posted in this thread.
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Old 09-25-2011, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
You can't have it both ways. The trainer at her gym says she was super athletic and that he thinks she could have physically gone over the railing (although I think he also said he doesn't think she did commit suicide, just that she could have jumped a railing). And her sister said she recently did a marathon and was very athletic. So why couldn't she lift a child less than half her weight?

I am the same height as RZ, although I weigh 7 lbs less than she did. I am not athletic, but I am fit. I can easily lift a 45 lb child.
One, he was not less than half her weight.

Two, he would have been fighting back.

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Originally Posted by MyBelle View Post
He hasn't openly disagreed with the AR but I wouldn't expect him to because it does support his diagnosis. If he disagrees with the ME's conclusion as to manner of death, I would think he may do that privately with Max's parents.

An insider posted here days ago that Max's mother still thinks he was suffocated. This was before the AR was released.

JMO
I am glad this is your opinion, as this is accusing the doctor of giving out information that had not been proven, and which cps emphatically states not to discuss when a case is opened.

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Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
Christopher Reeve had a broken neck. MS did not.
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Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
Spinal cord contusions are almost always NOT fatal. I posted a link on thread one that contained a video of a doctor explaining that. They can be fatal in cases of extreme speed, like a race car driver.
But in this instance they were, as proven by autopsy. So just because something does not always happen, does not mean that it can not happen.

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Originally Posted by MyBelle View Post
The ICU doctor has never spoken publicly as far as I know.
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Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes View Post
Since he has not come out and said he has changed his opinion.... I think he still believes what he believed when he did the extensive tests on Max for four days.

IMO
The fact that the ICU doctor has not spoken out publicly, does not mean that he still feels the same way he did when he assessed Max's VISIBLE injuries.

So, why, if he continued to do extensive testing for four days, would he have disclosed to the parents that Max may have been suffocated? Wouldn't he have contacted cps and gone ahead to try to prove, disprove his reasoning? What was the need for the extensive testing for four days? Maybe due to the fact that his potential diagnosis, did not fit Max's scenario? Not saying this was the case, but it is one possibility. Doctors do NOT always know what is wrong with a patient immediately, or the extent of injuries immediately.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sorrell skye View Post
bbm

The spinal cord is part of the central nervous system, which branches out into the peripheral nervous system. The spinal cord consists of nervous tissue as well as connective tissue.

A fracture of the vertebrae is not necessary in order to cause an injury to the spinal cord, as has been evidenced in MS's injuries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
Analyzing injuries is like a puzzle. It's not enough to say "spinal cord injury". You have to know the specific kind of injury because only specific kinds of actions can cause certain injuries. That's why it's so significant that we know MS's head went back violently enough to unplug his spinal cord. He fell FORWARDS, not backwards. No marks on the back of his head. Not a single one.

And notice the marks on his nose as dicussed in the AR. He did not have a broken nose, which you would expect with a violent fall. He has bruising. Bruising indicates pressure, not a violent, fatal fall forwards.
Please re read Sorrells post above yours concerning the spinal cord injury.

He would not have had to have a broken nose to have bruising. He had a head wound. The head is very vascular. Think about a man getting a cut shaving and how long it can bleed.

If the blood is internal, it can easily cause bruising throughout the sinus cavity, including around the eyes and nose. Think about having an iv or getting blood drawn. Getting a bump on your head and how it can bruise around your eye. Bumping into something and having a huge bruise an hour or a day later. Bruising means that blood is caught under the skin, that it leaked into the tissue and created the bruising from an injury, pressure from an ambu bag and people holding it in place, etc, etc, etc.

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Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
A question for you: Did Christopher Reeves have to die and have an autopsy before doctors could determine what was wrong with him?
Question back. How long was Christopher is the hospital, undergoing tests? He also had fractures, which was established above, that the injury to the spine can occur with or without fractures.

It seems to me, without seeing exactly what tests were performed, that the doctor at first, focused on the brain and injuries to the head/brain region, vs looking at the extent the spinal cord may have been damaged. As time went bye, I am sure that changed and more extensive tests were performed. I would like to see the doctors discharge summary. That is the only way to know if he truly felt the same way as in his first, visual assessment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
I understand what you're saying, but Dr. Peterson didn't believe he hit his head hard enough for it to bounce back with such force to cause a spinal contusion and neither do I. If he hit his head that hard, why isn't his nose broken? Remember, his nose had bruising, as did his clavicle. Wouldn't they have fractured?
Link please, as Max did not land on his nose, but most likely where the fracture occurred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyBelle View Post
I don't believe LE lied or covered-up MS cause of death.
Bingo and imho the post of the day!!!!!! I agree, no one lied or covered up the fact that Max had a tragic and fatal accident. They also stated that this was an unwitnessed fall.



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Originally Posted by MissJames View Post
My son committed suicide by hanging. My daughter found him on her way to her bedroom,screamed and my husband ran up. They got him down (I'll spare you the details) and my husband started CPR .He continued until paramedics arrived ,about 5-7 minutes later .Adrenalin was pumping and he kept it up. BUT the paramedics and EMT's never took over .They didn't work on him at all,but ran with him to the ambulance.
I met them at the emergency room entrance ,since I was at my parents house closer to the hospital. What my daughter noticed,and I did not,was,they weren't giving him breathes in any way ,not even with an ambu bag. I just thought he was breathing on his own,but he was already gone.I don't know if they ever tried.Maybe they saw signs that he had been gone too long.
My husband assumed they didn't want to waste a minute at our house doing CPR,but wanted to get to the emergency room asap. Six years ago the closest hospital was 20 minutes away. Today there's one 5 minutes away. I try not to dwell on that stuff. I imagine Max's parents have similar "if only's".Doesn't bring them back,though.
I am so sorry for your loss and everything that you and your family have had to go through!! (((((Hugs))))) and thank you so much for being kind enough to share this with us.

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Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
I don't see how posting a quote from a loving grandmother shows anger and hostility towards anyone. I can speak for myself when I say I have no anger or hostility to anyone, particularly to someone I have only read about on the internet. I will say, however, that I feel compelled to be a voice for a dead child who is being blamed for his death.
I'm sorry, but I truly do not understand how anyone is 'blaming' Max?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
Yes, and somehow it wound up over his leg when he obviously landed face first (as proven by the marks on the front of his head).

Also odd is that a child falling with such force onto the floor had only bruising on his nose and not a broken nose.
Addressed above and not at all odd if Max held onto the Razr for dear life. Poor baby, I can only imagine how terrifying that would have been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
It took 4 days to assess his injuries. His injuries were known on day one.
Yes, I have questions why it should have taken 4 days, in a childrens ICU, with a staff proficient in treating children, for them to realize the extent of Max's spinal involvement also. Thank you for bringing that up, as that has made me think a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
I agree with you about where MS landed when he went over the railing. However, that would not explain the bruising around the nose, the clavicle, the abrasions on his spine that match the number of steps above the landing, nor would it explain why he did not have abrasions on his hands from either trying to stop his fall, or cuts from grabbing a chandelier.
If he held on to the scooter, he would have no injuries to his hands. The angles of the fall were not witnessed. The geometry of the fall has explained the extent of Max's spinal injuries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fran View Post
FWIW and FYI, I'm not talking about any specific telepone call or text, but I'm sure everyone is aware that when you're in the hospital, they request you turn off your phone. Even in a doctor's office. So it's very plausible that Jonah had his phone off the MAJORITY of the time he was at the hospital with his critically injurred son.

JMHO
fran
Fran, where I have worked for the last 10 years, it has not been tequired to turn off your cell phone. The older equipment would and still would be affected by cell phones or computers. I have trouble believing that Rady's as renowned as it is, still has that type of equipment. Even our hospital, which is not state of the art is not affected by any electronic devices. So in other words, it varies from facility to facility.
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  #530  
Old 09-25-2011, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by deanna82437 View Post
I've not seen it stated anywhere that XZ did not hear a crash. Have you? If so, can you supply a link? TIA
The AR
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  #531  
Old 09-25-2011, 04:37 PM
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CDS22- It is clear that you believe RZ killed MS. That is a SERIOUS allegation. The iniitial positive tox screen for Benzo's was repeated and confirmed to be false, so ED physician suspicions were wrong. The autopsy re-confirmed negative tox study and demonstrates underlying pathology consistant with spinal injury- not murder. Ultimately, the medical examiners and LE believe accident.

-What is your proof that the Hospital physician(s), Pathologist and LE all worng?
-Motive for RZ to cause MS harm?

Last edited by curiousjo; 09-25-2011 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 09-25-2011, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...o-mansion.html

The brother-in-law confirmed that and the shopping trip in a recent interview. The link to that should be posted in this thread.
Thank you for quoting an article that states Rebecca was doing cpr. very helpful.
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  #533  
Old 09-25-2011, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by curiousjo View Post
CDS22- It is clear that you believe RZ killed MS. That is a SERIOUS allegation. The iniitial positive tox screen for Benzo's was false negative. The autopsy confirms negative tox study and demonstrates underlying pathology consistent with spinal injury. Ultimately, the medical examiners and LE beflieve accident.

-What is your proof that the medical conclusion and LE are both worng?
-Motive for RZ to cause MS harm?
I haven't accused anyone of killing MS, nor do I believe that the medical conclusion as stated in the AR is wrong. I believe that there remains unanswered questions about what happened to MS prior to receiving his final, fatal injury. I also don't believe LE is covering anything up.
  #534  
Old 09-25-2011, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
The AR
Page? Author? TIA
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Old 09-25-2011, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CDS22 View Post
I haven't accused anyone of killing MS, nor do I believe that the medical conclusion as stated in the AR is wrong. I believe that there remains unanswered questions about what happened to MS prior to receiving his final, fatal injury. I also don't believe LE is covering anything up.
Your posts strongly suggest that you don't believe the medical conclusion, and definately think RZ did something to MS. Is everyone missing something? I read that RZ treated MS like her son, so why would she harm him? Somone posted suspicisons that RZ did something to MS becasue she was angry where JS went? We have heard that he walked to the gym. Is this true, or did he go somewhere else ... any inside scoop?

.......So, you speculate that RZ could have done something to MS. I guess we don't know what went down. IF RZ did do something to MS, and threw him over the balcony.... he would have fallen straight down. She could not have propelled him with enough force to bring down the chandelier, then continue to fly across to lower staircase, then flat on floor.

Just wondering what your thoughts are, since both deaths are being questioned.

Last edited by curiousjo; 09-25-2011 at 06:16 PM.
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  #536  
Old 09-25-2011, 04:58 PM
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Evidence to back allegation that Rebecca changed her acct multiple times to multiple officers???
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Betty P View Post
MS autopsy report is pretty conclusive on the cause of his death. Again, it makes no sense for LE, the ME or physicians involved in his treatment to lie or attempt to cover up MS cause of death. There's no motivation for them to do so. To continue to accuse them of such is bizarre, to say the least. JMO.
The ME also came to a firm determination on Rebecca's death as well. So we are so sure he got it perfectly right on one and made a huge mistake on the other one? Because various people have been accused of possibly murdering Rebecca based on speculations even though the ME clearly stated the MOD/COD was suicide by hanging.

Yes, Max became brain dead due to lack of oxygen. That really tells us nothing about how that came to be or what transpired around the time of his death that made it happen in the first place.

And Rebecca died by suicide and the method was hanging and that has left many unanswered questions also for some. Aren't some suggesting that the ME nor the LE did their jobs or covered up the truth on RZ? Why would LE/ME have a reason to lie and cover that up either?

Again, I see no difference in wondering about these two mysterious deaths.

This is a very confusing thread.

We have threads here where we are asked to speculate about who murdered Rebecca. Where is the evidence required to prove those assertions(theories) since it seem now on this thread the ones who have unanswered questions about Max' death are being chastised if they even wonder about Max' death.

I don't see hardly anyone saying that the police and ME got it right on her case. The entire agencies involved are accused of being bought out, covering it up and selling out to JS. And possible named suspects have been slammed from almost minute one even though both cases are closed now.

I dont know if Rebecca harmed Max or if anyone in that home at the time did but I do not buy he flew over the bannister on his scooter and fell to his death.



IMO
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  #538  
Old 09-25-2011, 05:04 PM
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At age 12 my oldest son Tommy was playing with another neighborhood kid .
That boy got mad at my son because he wouldn't get him a movie ticket [he had already paid the night before] and did a karate chop on his hip . It broke .
Hospital and surgery and also the police .
The hospital called ..
They have to with serious injury . They don't know if we were lying
They let the police handle that while they care for the child .
The police talked to all of us . No big deal..that is their job .
They must have talked to everyone involved in this case too .
p.s. They boy never apologized , sent a card or anything . His parents were mad that their son would be prosecuted . Nver mind that my son had 2 surgeries and months of rehab . What a way to raise your kid huh?
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes View Post
Since he has not come out and said he has changed his opinion.... I think he still believes what he believed when he did the extensive tests on Max for four days.

IMO
So, he decided not to follow his ethic duty that he believed Max was murdered and changed his mind not to bother follow thru with seeing legal justice on behalf of this murdered child?? His allegations were of murder, specifically suffocation.. The procedure was started for this allegation to be handled legally with Rady's social worker assigned to the case and LE being brought in for the pending protective order all stemming from this dr's allegations..

This all ceased upon a thorough autopsy done on Max that showed something completely different from what this dr alleged.. But if you believe he still feels the same(I.e. That Max was murdered via suffocation and then thrown off the staircase)then why is the dr not following his ethic duty that a doctor takes an oath to uphold? If you believe that the doctor doesn't believe the autopsy report is true and accurate and still believes he is correct.. what is keeping him from following his ethic duty?
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
Evidence to back allegation that Rebecca changed her acct multiple times to multiple officers???
The differences between what she was credited with saying in both the AR and SW. Both links are posted on this thread.
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by curiousjo View Post
Your posts strongly suggest that you don't believe the medical conclusion, and definately think RZ did something to MS. Is everyone missing something? I read that RZ treated MS like her son, so why would she harm him? I think you( or someone else- I have to recheck) posted suspicisons that RZ did something to MS becasue she was angry where JS went? We heard he walked to the gym. Is this true, or did he go to DS place? Somewhere else? Any inside scoop?

.......So, you speculate that RZ could have done something to MS. I guess we don't know what went down. IF RZ did do something to MS, and threw him over the balcony.... he would have fallen straight down. She could not have propelled him with enough force to bring down the chandelier, then continue to fly across to lower staircase, then flat on floor.

Just wondering what your thoughts are, since both deaths are being questioned.
I believe the AR are accurate. I don't see a discrepancy between what the SW said, and the AR said. One doesn't necessarily negate the other.

I have never made a post about anyone being angry about anyone going to a gym.
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by fran View Post
I'm not privvy to how the system works for sure, but I BELIEVE it's possible that anytime a child comes in injurred as critically as M was that day, that child services may be called in to just cross all the I's and T's. I think it could have just been a precautionary measure.

It's JMHO though.
fran
I agree fran. I've always thought it was standard procedure, so it doesn't surprise me at all that they were called.
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:18 PM
Rhyme & Reason Rhyme & Reason is offline
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Originally Posted by Salem View Post
From reading the autopsy report -- and I am not any kind of medical expert, I got the impression that when Max landed, he landed head first, not face first, but head first and high on the forehead, so that it was the upper 1/2 or 1/3 of his forehead that took the brunt of the impact. I got this impression from the description of the bruising on his head (that's if I read it right) and the fact that there was no real damage to his face.

I think, just by putting the heel of my hand on the upper 1/3 of my forehead and pushing back, that such a scenario could very likely result in the spinal cord dislocation.

Again - that is just my speculation based on what the autopsy says.

Salem

ETA: I also think it was the scooter that brought the chandiler down, not Max. Having seen a few children go head over heels on bicycles, tricycles and scooters, I can see where Max might have held on to that scooter when he first hit the railing and started to go over, upending the scooter.
Very good observation Salem. I completely agree that could be how he landed.
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:28 PM
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Freak accidents can and do happen...

BIRMINGHAM, England – A seven-year-old British girl choked to death in a "chance in a million" accident after a small rubber ball bounced into her mouth, lodging in her throat.

Kiran Mir, from Birmingham, central England, was playing with a cheap rubber ball her mother, Shakeela Bibi, had bought her, the Birmingham Mail reported Friday.

"She was bouncing the ball between her hand and the floor. I suddenly heard Kiran cough and immediately looked towards her," Bibi said in a statement read out Thursday at a coroner's investigation into the March 1 death. "I immediately approached her and used one hand to smack her gently two or three times between her shoulder blades hoping for the ball to pop out."

Read more:

http://www.birminghammail.net/news/t...7319-29303607/
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes View Post
I can understand that somewhat. But if the scooter collided with the railing it seems the force of the sudden stop would repel Max's body over but not the scooter and there really doesn't seem to be an area long enough in the balcony area for him to pick up that amount of speed that would be necessary to be going that fast, imo. We see how wide of an area the scooter riders use when building up speed to make their jumps. Imo, there is just not enough space in that area to do so. Being lightweight it would not take much to stop the scooter, imo.

How tall is a razor scooter? Would most of the scooter be behind the enclosed banister area if he crashed into it?

In all the accident videos I have seen the person is thrown over the handle bars when they hit something solid that suddenly stops the scooter - bike-atv.. etc. and they have picked up quite a bit of speed when they do but those are mostly accidents that happen where the ground is level.

I know the scooter is durable but it is not that durable and is prone to get damaged just like anything else. If the scooter went over the balcony and collided with the chandelier it too would have cut marks and scratches imo and the only thing we have heard about it was on the first floor and he had already been told that is where he had to keep it.

How did he get the abrasions up and down his back? Most of his injuries were to his face and neck.

IMO
We really need a modeling program that takes into account scale, mass, gravity and velocity. I find it difficult to believe that LE does not access to such a program, if not directly through their own department, through the state or federal level.

A graphics depiction is not a substitute for an actual modeling. This would eliminate all implausible scenarios. Who knows ? Perhaps they did use one and the running hypothesis was the only model that remained. Too much info that we do not have access to still.
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:42 PM
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My son committed suicide by hanging. My daughter found him on her way to her bedroom,screamed and my husband ran up. They got him down (I'll spare you the details) and my husband started CPR .He continued until paramedics arrived ,about 5-7 minutes later .Adrenalin was pumping and he kept it up. BUT the paramedics and EMT's never took over .They didn't work on him at all,but ran with him to the ambulance.
I met them at the emergency room entrance ,since I was at my parents house closer to the hospital. What my daughter noticed,and I did not,was,they weren't giving him breathes in any way ,not even with an ambu bag. I just thought he was breathing on his own,but he was already gone.I don't know if they ever tried.Maybe they saw signs that he had been gone too long.
My husband assumed they didn't want to waste a minute at our house doing CPR,but wanted to get to the emergency room asap. Six years ago the closest hospital was 20 minutes away. Today there's one 5 minutes away. I try not to dwell on that stuff. I imagine Max's parents have similar "if only's".Doesn't bring them back,though.

I'm so sorry.
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:47 PM
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No other injuries to his spinal cord, and they did examine it. That's what's so bizarre about the accident. If he fell the way it's depicted in the police illustration (and they have his height ratio to the bannister all wrong), then he couldn't have had the clean angle (think diving or driving in a race car) to get a contusion that is fatal.

IMO
As I just posted up thread, I think LE or anyone that would be willing to help should use a modeling program that calculates for scale, mass, gravity and velocity in order to find the explanation that best fits the known information. At least this could afford the family a little closure.
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:50 PM
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Most children are good children who just lack the experience and knowledge that comes with age. Children are not equipped to understand the long term consequences of some actions...including those that may be dangerous. I am sure we all can remember doing foolish things that could have gotten us hurt as children. I for one walked the roof, walked across the top of my swing set, climbed into the highest trees and jumped onto the roof from there and stood on the seat of my bicycle while riding. I was a "good" kid too...just did not understand my behavior could have deathly consequences.
ITA Stilettos.

When I was 6, my brother & I climbed the radio tower @ our father's radio station, because we thought it would be fun to climb to the top. Halfway up, our father came out & saw us & yelled for us to come down - he was scared out of his wits (understandably). Thank Goodness we didn't fall!
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:55 PM
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And lest we lose sight of the child who died, this from Max's maternal grandmother:





http://www.azcentral.com/business/ar...#ixzz1Yz30ktqQ


I just don't think a "good boy" who's "smart as a whip" would do something foolhardy.
He was absolutely adorable to boot. But being smart does not compensate for lack of experience (by default, taking into account his age).
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:55 PM
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Freak accidents can and do happen...

BIRMINGHAM, England – A seven-year-old British girl choked to death in a "chance in a million" accident after a small rubber ball bounced into her mouth, lodging in her throat.

Kiran Mir, from Birmingham, central England, was playing with a cheap rubber ball her mother, Shakeela Bibi, had bought her, the Birmingham Mail reported Friday.

"She was bouncing the ball between her hand and the floor. I suddenly heard Kiran cough and immediately looked towards her," Bibi said in a statement read out Thursday at a coroner's investigation into the March 1 death. "I immediately approached her and used one hand to smack her gently two or three times between her shoulder blades hoping for the ball to pop out."

Read more:

http://www.birminghammail.net/news/t...7319-29303607/
Respectfully, there is a large difference between one bizarre mishap that was witnessed by a parent, than a series of bizarre incidents allegedly witnessed by no one while a child was in the care of a babysitter and her teenaged sister.
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