Max's Search Warrants Released!!!! Discuss Max's Death here #2

[oceanblueeyes]

Originally Posted by curiousjo

From what we know... GS was at the mansion on Monday am then left for airport - at undetermined time - prior to paramedics arrival per news interview with teen boy neighbor who is an AZ highschool classmate. Its possible the teens (GS and XZ) were taking planking pictures before she left for the airport. MS must have seen the teens planking, and probably doing it too.

----The attorney may have misspoke, and meant the teens were present in the morning(pre accident) and had been planking.
-Maybe even taking picture of MS planking?
-Consequently, one may conclude that its always possible MS tried to plank later that morning, then fell.

However, XZ has yet to tell us her story. She was there, and would know if teen(s) had left for airport.

But that is not what the attorney representing the Zahau family said.

Bremner said Max' two siblings were there when it happened.

IMO

[oceanblueeyes]

Originally Posted by Callie

Hello Everyone


If you go to this site and click on the picture that depicts how the Sheriff's Department believes Max went over the railing, then click the picture again and see a larger view.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/

It shows Max 'sailing' across the alcove to the opposite side of the chandelier, then flipping over, hitting the lower railing on his back then flipping again to fall face forward on the floor. If you click on the other picture that shows the landing between the first and second floor and notice the height of the rail coming down from the top floor where they believe he went over you can see that it isn't a mere 20" high. Also notice the opposite wall. He'd have to go around that wall and step down a step or two to go over the rail as shown in the diagram. This whole fall does not make sense to me and I was elated to discover, The HinkyMeter and Valhall's interpretation of Max's fall.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/

I do believe it was an accident just not like SD says it happened.
What would make him land on the opposite side of the chandelier rather than the side closest to him? What would make him fall from the chandelier to the rail rather than straight down to the floor? IMO, he had to have been traveling at a pretty good clip to achieve that maneuver as SD illustrates.
However, hitting the lower stair rail seems the only way for them to account for his back injuries.

I am wondering if XZ may innocently have played a part in the accident. How it may have actually occurred, I have no idea. It's rather difficult to believe she sustained a number of cuts bad enough to require stitches by just gathering up pieces of the chandelier. Not impossible, but to me, not likely. After all she was 13 yrs old not 3.
I would think that Rebecca would do all she could to protect her sister.

Was XZ standing on the bottom floor watching whatever Max was doing getting ready to take a photo of it and that is why she got shards of glass in her leg when the chandelier crashed down?

IMO

[IWannaKnow]

How do we know Max wasn't trying to learn some new tricks with his Razor? That is the big thing with them, jumping stairs. And if GS/ES were there over the weekend, maybe they showed Max some cool new videos of kids doing those tricks on the web....

James moore 10 set on scooter - YouTube

James moore 10 set on scooter - YouTube

http://community.babycenter.com/post...oter_and_a_psa

Accident with my 3 yr old and a razor scooter, and a PSA

[Mrs. Holmes]

Originally Posted by CDS22

My problem isn't the weight of the scooter. It's the angle, height, and the fact that he would need unbroken acceleration to die from fatal spinal cord contusion. With the diagram LE offered, you see him hitting the bannister, the wall, the chandelier, etc.

If he was running and then went over that first bannister and he "snapped" his head onto the lower bannister.. I think that could create the fatal spinal cord contusion. I have not seen all the ME details. JMO that he could have hit the second bannister at a high velocity.

[Rhyme & Reason]

Originally Posted by SnoopyDoobyDoo

I just read it. The MRI (which, I believe, was the medical test that would have diagnosed Max's fatal injury) occured AFTER Rebecca's death, making whether or not the injury was found before Max's death a moot point. At the time R died, doctor's and CPS were working off the assumption that the symptoms didn't match the situation as presented and were therefore suspicious. It came under debate because there was no mention of an MRI in the AR (according to posts here, I can't bring myself to read the report myself), just repeat CT scans. The "MRI on Wednesday" thing came out to counter that information, and then it was pointed out that if said statement was accurate it was irrelevant in ascertaining Rebecca's/family member's state of mind at the time of Rebecca's death.

That's it, thank you so much!!

[SnoopyDoobyDoo]

Originally Posted by Rhyme & Reason

That's it, thank you so much!!

No problem. There seems to be a lot of speculation getting mixed up with facts, which makes it easy to get lost. A couple of times while reading these threads (just started reading about it a couple of days ago) I've had to step back and clarify when X occured or why Y is being stated as a definite fact. Wheat from the chaff, and half the time I can't remember which pile is which.

[Brit]

Originally Posted by CDS22

Respectfully, there is a large difference between one bizarre mishap that was witnessed by a parent, than a series of bizarre incidents allegedly witnessed by no one while a child was in the care of a babysitter and her teenaged sister.

Series of bizarre incidents? Do you have links to these?

And, IMO, there is a huge difference between a babysitter and a soon to be fiancé.

[Brit]

Originally Posted by SophieRose

Climbing trees and falling off them is a more common accident for children, even falling down stairs, I don't think falling off of banisters is all that common.

As a child I along with my siblings would jump from the banister of my childhood home all the time. I would also climb on the other side of the banister and walk along the railing. I would climb trees and use my backyard fence as a balance beam as well. Not the smartest thing to do, I realize now....but as a child I never thought that anything bad would happen to me.

[time]

Rebecca was not the babysitter. Calling her that appears to be intentionally demeaning to me, but I could be wrong

[Morag]

Originally Posted by Brit

As a child I along with my siblings would jump from the banister of my childhood home all the time. I would also climb on the other side of the banister and walk along the railing. I would climb trees and use my backyard fence as a balance beam as well. Not the smartest thing to do, I realize now....but as a child I never thought that anything bad would happen to me.

You know, the railing of those bannisters is quite wide- maybe 4"- I could imagine a little boy walking on them- and if he fell he would hit the chandelier.

It would not likely just immediately plummet to the floor. It would swing back and forth as well as somewhat around -I've just tested my own chandelier's movement-not by jumping on it!-, and it does swing rather erratically. He could have been flung against the stairs and then fallen to the floor, and the chandelier came crashing down beside him.

I don't think his scooter had anything to do with it. Although- I have seen (older) kids ride rails with theirs in skate parks- the deck of the scooter or skateboard is put at a right angle on the rails. Snowboarders do that, too. There is a very fine skatepark in Coronado, and if Max ever went there he would have seen the tricks kids can do.

[Brit]

Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes

The ME also came to a firm determination on Rebecca's death as well. So we are so sure he got it perfectly right on one and made a huge mistake on the other one? Because various people have been accused of possibly murdering Rebecca based on speculations even though the ME clearly stated the MOD/COD was suicide by hanging.

Yes, Max became brain dead due to lack of oxygen. That really tells us nothing about how that came to be or what transpired around the time of his death that made it happen in the first place.

And Rebecca died by suicide and the method was hanging and that has left many unanswered questions also for some. Aren't some suggesting that the ME nor the LE did their jobs or covered up the truth on RZ? Why would LE/ME have a reason to lie and cover that up either?

Again, I see no difference in wondering about these two mysterious deaths.

This is a very confusing thread.

We have threads here where we are asked to speculate about who murdered Rebecca. Where is the evidence required to prove those assertions(theories) since it seem now on this thread the ones who have unanswered questions about Max' death are being chastised if they even wonder about Max' death.


I don't see hardly anyone saying that the police and ME got it right on her case. The entire agencies involved are accused of being bought out, covering it up and selling out to JS. And possible named suspects have been slammed from almost minute one even though both cases are closed now.

I dont know if Rebecca harmed Max or if anyone in that home at the time did but I do not buy he flew over the bannister on his scooter and fell to his death.



IMO

I can not speak for anyone else on this matter, but for me personally, I find that my isssue is more about reading statements that seem to be completely made up scenarios with no links or evidence that backs these statements up. Some statements are made out to be like they are facts when they seem to be only opinion, which I find serves no purpose but to attempt to shred a dead woman's reputation. There have even been references and insinuations made of the possibility that xz had purposely done this, which Is unforgivable to do considering she is a minor and there is no evidence whatsoever to back that up. There have also been refernences made About the z family heritage and why they would be looking for donations for there own investigation.....when nobody knows this families financial needs. I find nothing wrong with people questioning both of these cases, because I quite honestly feel that the le
dropped the ball, especially in rz's case.

[justbetweenus]

Originally Posted by time

Rebecca was not the babysitter. Calling her that appears to be intentionally demeaning to me, but I could be wrong

Interesting. Maybe it's just a canadian thing because often when mothers are out, and asked where the kids are they say hubby's babysitting tonight. I thought of rebecca termed babysitter the same way, not demeaning.

[justbetweenus]

Originally Posted by IWannaKnow

How do we know Max wasn't trying to learn some new tricks with his Razor? That is the big thing with them, jumping stairs. And if GS/ES were there over the weekend, maybe they showed Max some cool new videos of kids doing those tricks on the web....

James moore 10 set on scooter - YouTube

http://community.babycenter.com/post...oter_and_a_psa

Accident with my 3 yr old and a razor scooter, and a PSA

I've wondered about something like this happening, but I can't see him getting enough speed unless there is a room or hall directly at the top of the upstairs hall facing towards the staircase.

[Boodles]

Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes

Bremner said Zahau was not alone in the mansion when Max had his accident She said that two of the child’s teenage siblings were present as well and that Zahau was in the shower at the time of the accident. Max’s mother and Jonah Shacknai were divorced, and Zahau had recently divorced as well.

Bremner said investigators told her that the child had been conducting a trick known as “planking,” or lying horizontally in unusual locations, around the staircase when he fell. Planking is a fad popularized with photographs and videos online. One planks while the other one takes the photo.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...anking&ct=clnk

There is so much contradictory info being thrown about in this case. For instance, the writer of that article says that Ann Bremner said "two of the child’s teenage siblings were present as well", but what is her source? I don't know what Bremner actually said, nor do I know her source, but this article is very "she said that she said" with probably another "she" being the source. This case is sorely lacking in documented facts. LE screwed this up big time if you ask me. Bremner needs to be responsible as well in her public comments.

LE's Diagram of Max's Accident
And the diagram of Max's alleged accident is CRAZY! It's not to scale (IMO) and makes no sense if you look at his pace, strides, etc. It shows him going over the bannister but with the wrong foot leading him to it. If he had been in the mode of strides as they show, it does not seem to me he would have gone over. Now that doesn't mean he didn't fall over, it just means that LE's analysis of the steps he took is invalid. So if they used invalid assumptions, how good is their conclusion?

For example, if you look at the diagram, notice the figure 3rd from the left. He is moving forward leading with his right leg, but is still several feet (yards? who knows, there is no scale!) from the bannister. Yet in his next position depicted (4th figure from the left), he is going over the bannister with THE SAME RIGHT FOOT LEADING. To me, that seems very implausible.
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/ms01.jpg

Again, he could have been running down that hallway and tripped over the dog or whatever go over the railing, but unlikely that his strides would have been as depicted in that "re-enactment" are. And, as stated so many times by others, there is no scooter portrayed in this scenario. They just don't explain the scooter.

That doesn't mean it wasn't an accident. It suggests, to me, that LE did a crap job of investigating and/or reporting. Cover up? No idea.....

[time]

Originally Posted by justbetweenus

Interesting. Maybe it's just a canadian thing because often when mothers are out, and asked where the kids are they say hubby's babysitting tonight. I thought of rebecca termed babysitter the same way, not demeaning.

No, I don't think that is a Canadian thing and often I think it is the context this term is used in. I think for Rebecca to be termed the babysitter in this context is demeaning although I can see someone saying that maybe she was treated as such, just like she appeared to be treated like the chauffeur. I would not want to be called the babysitter if I were watching out after my partner's children.

[Quester]

Since MS’ fall happened just before the 10:10am 911 call. And, DS wasn’t located [despite the many repeated LE efforts reported in MSM] and told about MS’ fall until DS was found at about 2:00pm [IF I remember correctly], it would be interesting to know exactly what JS told DS concerning the particulars of MS’s fall.

IMO, MOO, etc.

[greenpalm]

This article from Newsweek gives us more concrete information about when G & E left for the airport that morning:

According to reports pieced together from several sources, between 6 and 7 a.m. on Monday, July 11, the twice-divorced Shacknai and his 6-year-old son, Max, drove his other children—E, 13, and G, 14—to the San Diego airport for a flight to Phoenix, where they were meeting their mother. G and E hugged and kissed their little Maxie goodbye. It would be for the last time.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...o-mansion.html

[AZlawyer]

I'm sure someone has said this, but there is a big difference in my mind between accusing RZ of murder and accusing her of adding facts to an accident scenario to make herself and/or her sister seem less at fault for the accident. My personal (extremely tentative) opinion is that Max died by accident in a manner in which RZ felt she or her sister might be blamed, so she added the scooter, the "Ocean" whisper, etc. to create a substitute story that would not cast blame on her or XZ. Not that RZ or XZ were necessarily at fault, but perhaps RZ's experience of JS and/or DS was such that she anticipated that they would be seeking out someone to blame.

[SmoothOperator]

Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes

Was XZ standing on the bottom floor watching whatever Max was doing getting ready to take a photo of it and that is why she got shards of glass in her leg when the chandelier crashed down?

IMO

XZ was
Not Injured in Max's accident.. She was not injured when she called 911, nor when medical emts arrived.. XZ was not injured until after the entire accident and medical attn was over.. She was injured while helping Rebecca clean up the chandelier and broken Glass from the chandelier.

[Dum-Dum Sucker]

Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes

Was XZ standing on the bottom floor watching whatever Max was doing getting ready to take a photo of it and that is why she got shards of glass in her leg when the chandelier crashed down?

IMO

A camera was collected according to macs sw I believe. No link. I am in icu

[SunnieRN]

Originally Posted by CDS22

It's directly quoted and linked a few pages back, as well as on the original Max death thread.

Link to the 'direct quote' please. I have access to the death record. Thank you very much.

Originally Posted by CDS22

57 lbs. still works with the formulas and scenarios given.

Can we see the calculations please. TIA.

Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes

That may be true concerning her statement to LE. I believe she said Max said "Ocean' when she reached him but then we have what Rebecca's sister has said or told Bremner about the other Shacknai children being in the home and Max was planking.

Where did that come from if not Rebecca? Didn't Rebecca tell LE there was no one in the home at the time but her sister and herself? IIRC, that was mentioned in the PC.

IMO

I'm sorry, but if you have an article stating what XZ has 'said or told Bremner', I would like to see a link to the article please. The only XZ statement I have seen is that Rebecca did not feel 'guilty' about the accident, but felt bad about the accident.

TIA.

[defense101]

This is from MS AR, which shows that Coronado Hospital found the possible C5 abnormality but not Rady's, but it shows that this was found early on.

He was transported to Sharp Coronado Hospital and then to Rady Children's Hospital. A pulse was was regained after approximately 25-30 minutes. Head CT scans showed cerebral edema, a possible C5 abnormality (at Sharp Coronado; this was not confirmed at Rady Children's),

[SunnieRN]

Originally Posted by Dum-Dum Sucker

A camera was collected according to macs sw I believe. No link. I am in icu

DumDumSucker, I hope you and yours are alright, or that soon things will be! Hugs and prayers!

[SunnieRN]

Originally Posted by SmoothOperator

XZ was
Not Injured in Max's accident.. She was not injured when she called 911, nor when medical emts arrived.. XZ was not injured until after the entire accident and medical attn was over.. She was injured while helping Rebecca clean up the chandelier and broken Glass from the chandelier.

Smooth Operator, thank you for stating what we know is fact concerning many instances. When opinions, not proven by fact, are brandied about, it sets a statement and meaning in place. If the statement, or meaning are incorrect or misconstrued, it sets a precedent for that to become a fact in peoples minds.

By stating the true facts, in various areas, you have done your best to keep things straight. Imho, reading multiple posts, with incorrect facts is frustrating. To a newcomer, it is confusing and shadows the true questions that exist.

Thanks again, it is much appreciated!!

[MissJames]

Originally Posted by justbetweenus

Interesting. Maybe it's just a canadian thing because often when mothers are out, and asked where the kids are they say hubby's babysitting tonight. I thought of rebecca termed babysitter the same way, not demeaning.

Here in the south we also say hubby is babysitting,but never have I heard a hubby called THE BABYSITTER.
BTW,I always point out to my husband you can't be babysitting if they're YOUR kids. 32 years and 7 kids later,he gets it .