CONVICTION OVERTURNED Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #21

[Salem]

Please continue here. We know and understand that whatever happens, whether we have an acquittal, sentences are upped or maybe even lowered, it will create controversy. Controversy is okay - ATTACKING EACH OTHER IS NOT. Please be aware that TO's will be issued. Attack the post, not the poster.

Please take the time to stomp your feet or jump for joy AWAY from the threads and be a good winner/loser when you come here to post.

Here is a link to the Rules forum:

The Rules - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community" target="_blank">The Rules - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

The Rules - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community">The Rules - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Please take the time read/review the rules.

Please STOP attacking each other. Attack the post, not the poster.

It is understood that this case is highly controversial. However, that is no excuse for continuing to pound each other. Everyone is entitled to view the info/facts and interpret the data for themselves. Everyone is entitled to voice an opinion and speculate/theorize about the data.

If you are feeling frustrated, take a walk or visit another thread, or take a look around the entire board - there are all kinds of cases here, crime, missing, unidentified. Do something to relax your mind/emotions, but don't post here and take the thread into a tailspin about things that are not relevant please.

We are getting close to the end of the line on this case. A verdict/acquittal is about 2-3 weeks away. What ever the outcome, it is going to have an impact on everyone that followed this case so closely. And things are going to become testier and testier so I really need you to "mod" yourselves. Please, take a look at the rules and make sure your posts are within the boundaries.

Thanks and I really appreciate your help as we move into these next few weeks.

Salem

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[SMK]

Hard to believe we are down to the wire: Rebuttals will finish tomorrow, then Mon. AK and RS speak, and by evening, the verdict. For some reason, even though I know it is a technicality, moving all from Sat. to Mon. feels like a bad omen. Guess I am just one of those worriers.

[OldSteve]

Glad to see the video:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...20113775.shtml

[Allusonz]

Originally Posted by SMK

Hard to believe we are down to the wire: Rebuttals will finish tomorrow, then Mon. AK and RS speak, and by evening, the verdict. For some reason, even though I know it is a technicality, moving all from Sat. to Mon. feels like a bad omen. Guess I am just one of those worriers.

Just don't use pliers like flourish to rip those nails off

It actually seems at times very scripted to me although I know this not to be the case as I am sure other elements came into play

[SMK]

From Frank Sfarzo, Perugia Shock:

KNOX’S LAWYERS ACCUSE
Posted: September 29, 2011 by perugiashock

THE PROOFS OF AMANDA’S INNOCENCE DESTROYED

Knox Crucified:




http://perugiashock.com/2011/09/29/k...awyers-accuse/

[Allusonz]

@ Murphismo

[Monzoo]

Originally Posted by SMK

Hard to believe we are down to the wire: Rebuttals will finish tomorrow, then Mon. AK and RS speak, and by evening, the verdict. For some reason, even though I know it is a technicality, moving all from Sat. to Mon. feels like a bad omen. Guess I am just one of those worriers.

Looking at Barbie Nadeau's latest tweet --

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
MDG gives a heartwarming description of #amandaknox and we're done for the day at 6:47. #amandaknox Monday morning at 9am

It looks like there is no court tomorrow -- rebuttals end Monday. So, it may simply be a case that someone had a conflict with holding court tomorrow.

[SMK]

Originally Posted by Monzoo

Looking at Barbie Nadeau's latest tweet --



It looks like there is no court tomorrow -- rebuttals end Monday. So, it may simply be a case that someone had a conflict with holding court tomorrow.

Ah, I see, thanks so much for that! So it is done, then? Nothing but the statements and verdict left for Mon.! (perhaps a bit more rebuttal)...

ETA:

Barbie Nadeau
"Monday lineup:
Ghirga rebuttal,
#sollecito, #amandaknox declarations,
judge/jury will deliberate for several hrs,
then verdict."

[OldSteve]

A strange outcome that rattles around in my old noggin is of AK/RS being found guilty but the judge saying in light of improper forensics, their sentence is changed to time served. Crazy, I know, but....

[SMK]

Originally Posted by OldSteve

A strange outcome that rattles around in my old noggin is of AK/RS being found guilty with their sentences changed to time served. Crazy, I know, but....

I have thought of that, too; not the preferable outcome as opposed to acquittals, but better than sentences stand or changed to life.

[Murphismo]

Thank you all for the warm welcome. The arguments for innoscence seem pretty cut adn dry, guilt is a little harder to wade though because it appears the forensic evidence is useless to me.... I'm tying to concentrate on the timeline to make sence on things. So here are some questions and thoughts I have:

Did MK have mushrooms in her digestive tract?
Seems like the forensics regarding the footprints, knife, dna show innocence as there was no MK dna on knife blade or proven blood, no MK dna in the bloody footprints, and the knife didn't even seem to be the murder weapon (no match for the print on the pillowcase). Soooo, AK and RS said they were home all night..... That seems to be untrue per computer records, phone calls, and eyewitnesses. I'm left with "why lie"?? Am I missing something? So if the store owner saw AK at 7:30 am the morning MK was found dead perhaps she could have cleaned up, but could she get rid of all DNA? Ditto on the wet mop bucket at RS house, could they have gotten it all up? Also, MK door was locked, I read the window had large shards of glass left in it, how did they all get out that window without leaving DNA or breaking the glass, was there a lot found outside? Whose fingerprints were found on MK phone from which the call was made for an account balance? I'm also foggy on the phone call made from MK to her mother, the time in Italy it was made and the relevence!!

Anyone out there that can clear any of this up??

[Monzoo]

[quote=SMK;7174245]Ah, I see, thanks so much for that! So it is done, then? Nothing but the statements and verdict left for Mon.! (perhaps a bit more rebuttal)...

I find it interesting that it appears the only lead defense attorney to speak will be Ghira on Monday. So far today, the defense have used the "B" team. I wonder what the reason for that strategy is.

Originally Posted by OldSteve

A strange outcome that rattles around in my old noggin is of AK/RS being found guilty with their sentences changed to time served. Crazy, I know, but....

I can't see them being sentenced to 4 years in prison if convicted of murder. Would definitely have to be acquitted on that charge. Perhaps if convicted for "staging?" I, personally, have a hard time seeing that they would be acquiited of murder but still guilty for staging. I can't seem to uncouple the two charges mentally. YMMV

[Murphismo]

By the way, here is the link to the timeline I read.
http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2

[SMK]

@OldSteve:

One reason I think this might be risky for Hellman, is imagine the outrage of the Kerchers, and the prosecution, if it were declared that AK and RS were responsible (partly) for the death, but could now walk free after such a short time?? ETA: Monzoo is said the same and more, I am just seeing the post now.....

[Murphismo]

[quote=Monzoo;7174277]

Originally Posted by SMK

Ah, I see, thanks so much for that! So it is done, then? Nothing but the statements and verdict left for Mon.! (perhaps a bit more rebuttal)...

I find it interesting that it appears the only lead defense attorney to speak will be Ghira on Monday. So far today, the defense have used the "B" team. I wonder what the reason for that strategy is.



I can't see them being sentenced to 4 years in prison if convicted of murder. Would definitely have to be acquitted on that charge. Perhaps if convicted for "staging?" I, personally, have a hard time seeing that they would be acquiited of murder but still guilty for staging. I can't seem to uncouple the two charges mentally. YMMV

Drumroll.... really dumb qustion, why would they stage?

[Allusonz]

Some interesting tweets. Maresca did have MK's moms permission to show pictures

BBCDanielS Daniel Sandford
Maresca talking about when he showed the pictures of Meredith's dead body on Monday. He said he had Mez's mother's permission #amandaknox

Comodi states there is not an extradition agreement

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Press trying to square Comodi's comment that there is no extradition agreement between Italy and USA. Is there an accord?

[Monzoo]

Originally Posted by Murphismo

Thank you all for the warm welcome. The arguments for innoscence seem pretty cut adn dry, guilt is a little harder to wade though because it appears the forensic evidence is useless to me.... I'm tying to concentrate on the timeline to make sence on things. So here are some questions and thoughts I have:

Did MK have mushrooms in her digestive tract?
Seems like the forensics regarding the footprints, knife, dna show innocence as there was no MK dna on knife blade or proven blood, no MK dna in the bloody footprints, and the knife didn't even seem to be the murder weapon (no match for the print on the pillowcase). Soooo, AK and RS said they were home all night..... That seems to be untrue per computer records, phone calls, and eyewitnesses. I'm left with "why lie"?? Am I missing something? So if the store owner saw AK at 7:30 am the morning MK was found dead perhaps she could have cleaned up, but could she get rid of all DNA? Ditto on the wet mop bucket at RS house, could they have gotten it all up? Also, MK door was locked, I read the window had large shards of glass left in it, how did they all get out that window without leaving DNA or breaking the glass, was there a lot found outside? Whose fingerprints were found on MK phone from which the call was made for an account balance? I'm also foggy on the phone call made from MK to her mother, the time in Italy it was made and the relevence!!

Anyone out there that can clear any of this up??

I can't help you make a coherent guilty argument. Sorry.

In regards to being home all night:
There is a witness -- Amanda answered Raffaele's door at approx. 8:40. The defense and prosecution both agree that there is verified computer use at 9:10 pm. Raffaele's appeal also argues that there was an additonal file opened at 9:26 pm. He also mentioned screensaver activity all night -- but I have not seen it verified. All computers in this case were fried by police technicians, and Rafaele's computer was used by police to look at files/surf the internet, writing over some of the evidence. It's not a case of the computers disproving so much as not being able to prove.

Because Meredith's stomach contained her entire last meal (eaten approx. 6 pm) she was almost certainly killed by 10 pm at the latest. (Additional evidence for this: Meredith's cell phone pinged at a tower away from the cottage at about 10:15, and Rudy himself placed the murder at about 9:20-30.)

RE: Store Owner --

Immediately after the murder, both he and one of his employees were interviewed by police and stated they saw nothing. One year later he changed his story at the behest of a reporter. His employee never changed her story. There is no evidence of either bleach purchase or cleaning. The mop was tested, found negative for blood.

I'll try to answer the rest later.

[Monzoo]

[quote=Murphismo;7174296]

Originally Posted by Monzoo

Drumroll.... really dumb qustion, why would they stage?

The staging is LE explantion for the broken window and disorder in Filomena's bedroom. They came up this theory before they identified Rudy Guede as a suspect. Rudy has a history as a burgler.

[Murphismo]

I'm reading RG's letters from prison and I'm having a hard time swallowing it....http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtop...t=38:twocents:

[Madeleine74]

I believe (and the new experts believe) that the DNA results from the knife and bra clasp may be incorrect and inaccurate. At the very least the collection of evidence was not done according to proper International protocols, as pointed out by many other experts, in addition to the Italian ones appointed by this judge.

As such, that creates reasonable doubt. Regardless of who said what and when and how and who did a cartwheel or anything else, if there is not a clean investigation then the results can not be trusted. I am of course discounting that bra clasp, which has come under scrutiny.

As such, AK and RS are "not guilty" in my eyes. I also think they are factually innocent of this crime.

I believe RG was the only perp and the physical evidence that isn't contaminated tells me this. Further, RG's first statement when he did not know his friend was taping him was that neither AK nor RS were in that cottage.

Further, in a crime scene as contained and bloody as this one, in MK's room, there is no physical evidence of either RS or AK interacting with MK, but there is ample and plentiful evidence of RG.

I hope they are freed, but I don't think they will be. I think the hurdle is too great to be overcome in Perugia, given all the problems and issues surrounding media, hype, etc. I'd like to be wrong though because I do think both are innocent.

[Malkmus]

The mother of Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox's slain roommate, will look the jury in the eye Monday before they decide on a verdict and ask them to keep Knox in prison, a lawyer for the Kercher family said today.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ry?id=14636298

Not sure how I feel about this strategy. But I suppose this happens in other trials as well?

[Allusonz]

Originally Posted by Murphismo

Thank you all for the warm welcome. The arguments for innoscence seem pretty cut adn dry, guilt is a little harder to wade though because it appears the forensic evidence is useless to me.... I'm tying to concentrate on the timeline to make sence on things. So here are some questions and thoughts I have:

Did MK have mushrooms in her digestive tract?
Seems like the forensics regarding the footprints, knife, dna show innocence as there was no MK dna on knife blade or proven blood, no MK dna in the bloody footprints, and the knife didn't even seem to be the murder weapon (no match for the print on the pillowcase). Soooo, AK and RS said they were home all night..... That seems to be untrue per computer records, phone calls, and eyewitnesses. I'm left with "why lie"?? Am I missing something? So if the store owner saw AK at 7:30 am the morning MK was found dead perhaps she could have cleaned up, but could she get rid of all DNA? Ditto on the wet mop bucket at RS house, could they have gotten it all up? Also, MK door was locked, I read the window had large shards of glass left in it, how did they all get out that window without leaving DNA or breaking the glass, was there a lot found outside? Whose fingerprints were found on MK phone from which the call was made for an account balance? I'm also foggy on the phone call made from MK to her mother, the time in Italy it was made and the relevence!!

Anyone out there that can clear any of this up??

Hard to clean up DNA that is invisible to the naked eye or not to leave any DNA in a very messy murder. Here is the conclusion of the experts. The entire report is at this link as well

ITEM 36 (KNIFE)
Relative to the genetic analysis performed on trace A (handle of the knife), we agree with the conclusion reached by the Technical Consultant regarding the attribution of the genetic profile obtained from these samples to Amanda Marie Knox.

Relative to trace B (blade of the knife) we find that the technical analyses performed are not reliable for the following reasons:

1. There does not exist evidence which scientifically confirms that trace B (blade of knife) is the product of blood.

2. The electrophoretic profiles exhibited reveal that the sample indicated by the letter B (blade of knife) was a Low Copy Number (LCN) sample, and, as such, all of the precautions indicated by the international scientific community should have been applied.

3. Taking into account that none of the recommendations of the international scientific community relative to the treatment of Low Copy Number (LCN) samples were followed, we do not accept the conclusions regarding the certain attribution of the profile found on trace B (blade of knife) to the victim Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher, since the genetic profile, as obtained, appears unreliable insofar as it is not supported by scientifically validated analysis;

4. International protocols of inspection, collection, and sampling were not followed;

5. It cannot be ruled out that the result obtained from sample B (blade of knife) derives from contamination in some phase of the collection and/or handling and/or analyses performed.

ITEM 165B (BRA CLASPS)

Relative to Item 165B (bra clasps), we find that the technical analysis is not reliable for the following reasons:

1. There does not exist evidence which scientifically confirms the presence of supposed flaking cells on the item;

2. There was an erroneous interpretation of the electrophoretic profile of the autosomic STRs;

3. There was an erroneous interpretation of the electrophoretic profile relative to the Y chromosome;

4. The international protocols for inspection, collection, and sampling of the item were not followed;

5. It cannot be ruled out that the results obtained derive from environmental contamination and/or contamination in some phase of the collection and/or handling of the item.

THE EXPERTS
Prof. Carla Vecchiotti
Prof. Stefano Conti

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/c...conclusions-2/

[SMK]

Originally Posted by Malkmus

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ry?id=14636298

Not sure how I feel about this strategy. But I suppose this happens in other trials as well?

I think it is an appeal to emotion and guilt, and unfair to the defendants. ETA: Thanks for link and quote, have reposted on JREF.

[Monzoo]

Originally Posted by Malkmus

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ry?id=14636298

Not sure how I feel about this strategy. But I suppose this happens in other trials as well?

I hate this kind of argument. There either is or isn't enough evidence to convict. The Kercher's loss has to bearing on that. I hope that it is not effective, but I worry that it might be.

[SMK]

Originally Posted by Monzoo

I hate this kind of argument. There either is or isn't enough evidence to convict. The Kercher's loss has to bearing on that. I hope that it is not effective, but I worry that it might be.

Worries me, too....