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Lisa Irwin Missing! 10 mo old Lisa Irwin disappeared from her crib in the middle of the night. Where is she?


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  #751  
Old 11-22-2011, 11:00 AM
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Thank you, Sabot. I should clarify that the grand jury, of course, would not be called on to determine guilt or innocence, just to a) determine that a crime had been committed (and which crime(s) it was, and b) if there exists enough evidence to believe that a given person or persons committed the crime(s). If both of those are yes, the grand jury returns a true bill. Otherwise, a not true bill is returned, although the prosecutor can bring it again if there is new evidence (that was true at least in the jurisdiction in which I served.)

As I said, in this case I wouldn't have enough evidence to vote to return a true bill, much less to convict. (What specific crime(s) was/were committed and by whom??)
I totally agree. Once we know WHAT crime was committed, we will at least have something to work with. But at this point, we only know that somehow Baby Lisa was not in her crib at 3:30 am that morning.

We don't know WHAT was done, much less WHO did it, HOW they did it, WHEN they did it, or WHY they did it. We are barely comfortable with WHERE it was done - at least in general. But that could prove to be wrong too!

We need way more than this to charge, convict or really even just to accuse someone!
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Minette View Post
Thank you, Sabot. I should clarify that the grand jury, of course, would not be called on to determine guilt or innocence, just to a) determine that a crime had been committed (and which crime(s) it was, and b) if there exists enough evidence to believe that a given person or persons committed the crime(s). If both of those are yes, the grand jury returns a true bill. Otherwise, a not true bill is returned, although the prosecutor can bring it again if there is new evidence (that was true at least in the jurisdiction in which I served.)

As I said, in this case I wouldn't have enough evidence to vote to return a true bill, much less to convict. (What specific crime(s) was/were committed and by whom??)
I must admit that I don't know much about Grand Juries, but they sound a bit like The British Crown Prosecution Service who decide if there is a case to answer to for one or more persons. And as things stand at the moment, this Case wouldn't go to Court against anybody, not even Jersey, who we all no doubt, would love to blame.
But I do think that someone had been watching that house. And from what little I have been able to learn, Baby Snatchers target someone and then just wait for an opportune moment.
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:14 AM
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wow..hadn't been around this board much, lately. Looks like DB and JI have done a good job drumming up support! Not hard to do with media attorneys and large law firms. But, kind of sad, too. Where is the support for baby Lisa? Oh! That's right....local LE and the FBI are her support. Bless them for not giving up on her. For tirelessly searching...
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:26 AM
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I am by no means a legal expert, just speaking based on my own experiences! But what happens in general is that the grand jury is overseen by the prosecutor (the DA) and only addresses felonies, not misdemeanors. The prosecutor presents evidence and the and can summon witnesses and compel them to testify. A judge is not present, nor are any defense attorneys. During my service, we were allowed to question witnesses directly. We ruled on everything from murder to rape to drug offenses. Hearsay can be admitted if it is supported by other evidence. The grand jury determines whether the evidence meets the standard of 'probable cause,' not 'beyond a reasonable doubt'--that is left to the trial jury to determine. So in general, the grand jury acts under the direction of the prosecution and is held to a lower standard of proof than a trial jury. Even so, there has to be some hard evidence, or a preponderance of circumstantial evidence of what happened and who did it.
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:26 AM
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wow..hadn't been around this board much, lately. Looks like DB and JI have done a good job drumming up support! Not hard to do with media attorneys and large law firms. But, kind of sad, too. Where is the support for baby Lisa? Oh! That's right....local LE and the FBI are her support. Bless them for not giving up on her. For tirelessly searching...
LE seem to be searching for A Dead Body. I am rather hoping for A Live One.
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:28 AM
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I don't 'support' DB & JI--I support the truth. And the truth is, I don't know exactly what happened, or who did it. When and if LE does, I expect them to bring charges. I support that, too.
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Minette View Post
I don't 'support' DB & JI--I support the truth. And the truth is, I don't know exactly what happened, or who did it. When and if LE does, I expect them to bring charges. I support that, too.
And to bring charges against the CORRECT person, no matter who that turns out to be.
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Minette View Post
I am by no means a legal expert, just speaking based on my own experiences! But what happens in general is that the grand jury is overseen by the prosecutor (the DA) and only addresses felonies, not misdemeanors. The prosecutor presents evidence and the and can summon witnesses and compel them to testify. A judge is not present, nor are any defense attorneys. During my service, we were allowed to question witnesses directly. We ruled on everything from murder to rape to drug offenses. Hearsay can be admitted if it is supported by other evidence. The grand jury determines whether the evidence meets the standard of 'probable cause,' not 'beyond a reasonable doubt'--that is left to the trial jury to determine. So in general, the grand jury acts under the direction of the prosecution and is held to a lower standard of proof than a trial jury. Even so, there has to be some hard evidence, or a preponderance of circumstantial evidence of what happened and who did it.
Thanks. That sounds reasonable, and not much different to UK.
France has a similar system to America. one is Inquisitorial and the other is
Adversarial, although for the life of me I can never remember which one is what.
However, both France and UK have convicted innocent people in recent years, not to mention before hand, and some of whom were Executed. Which ever way you look at it, both of these systems rely on evidence supplied by LE.
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  #759  
Old 11-22-2011, 11:46 AM
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I think everyone on this forum cares deeply about finding Baby Lisa. Many of us hope desperately that she will be found alive. We can differ about what we think happened, and who might or might not be involved, but I hope we can all agree that finding Lisa is the most important thing.
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:47 AM
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And to get back OT: Can the parents just for pete's sake, for LISA's sake, go and answer the police's questions? Until they do, speaking of innocence till proven guilty, what they currently are proving to me only of course, is how they are obstructing a LE investigation TO retrieve THEIR own baby!

The freaking mind boggles.
They have really convinced me of their level of care and concern. Really and truly.

I guess another cold case.
And relying on Karma somehow down the line.

sigh.
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  #761  
Old 11-22-2011, 11:48 AM
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I've been thinking about exactly WHAT is meant by statements such as these...."parents not answering vital questions"....at times, they almost appear cryptic to me.
Going along THOSE lines....just a wee bit off the thread topic...

I'm still having trouble with DB's comment about "failing" the LDT...WHICH question in particular?? I don't remember her ever saying which one it was....correct me if I'm wrong, please. Seems, it almost immediately became accepted/theorized as a question like "did you do something to your daughter". Heck, maybe they asked her what her weight or size she is and she "adjusted" it....LOL
I'm not a LDT expert, but as I've heard, doesn't it have to do with the question being asked and how it's phrased that can lead to a "deceptive" response??
Maybe she has a strong feeling about who she "thinks" it is, and the way the question was worded came up as her giving a deceptive answer. All question/speculation.

The "questions" matter gets me wondering, as well. It could just as well be something about the people who were there that night and why were they there....bouncing off the phone call to MW's phone and all these Shanes or Danes or whoever start popping up. Maybe DB doesn't want to end up looking worse than she already seems with the being drunk/blacked out stuff. I mean, sheesh, maybe she could have bought a joint off of one of them. In the media, it would go from an alkie to a drug addict slammin' heroine.

I AM NOT INFERRING ANYONE IS INVOLVED IN DRUGS, in any way shape or form.

But, sometimes, the less said about things isn't such a bad thing. I honestly believe LE wants to know more about that crew in that other house and DB/JI's connection to them...be it nothing, as they've said....or something, they won't/can't say.


All, just IMO.
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by MyTinkieGirl View Post
I've been thinking about exactly WHAT is meant by statements such as these....at times, they almost appear cryptic to me.
Going along THOSE lines....just a wee bit off the thread topic...

I'm still having trouble with DB's comment about "failing" the LDT...WHICH question in particular?? I don't remember her ever saying which one it was....correct me if I'm wrong, please. Seems, it almost immediately became accepted/theorized as a question like "did you do something to your daughter". Heck, maybe they asked her what her weight or size she is and she "adjusted" it....LOL
I'm not a LDT expert, but as I've heard, doesn't it have to do with the question being asked and how it's phrased that can lead to a "deceptive" response??
Maybe she has a strong feeling about who she "thinks" it is, and the way the question was worded came up as her giving a deceptive answer. All question/speculation.

The "questions" matter gets me wondering, as well. It could just as well be something about the people who were there that night and why were they there....bouncing off the phone call to MW's phone and all these Shanes or Danes or whoever start popping up. Maybe DB doesn't want to end up looking worse than she already seems with the being drunk/blacked out stuff. I mean, sheesh, maybe she could have bought a joint off of one of them. In the media, it would go from an alkie to a drug addict slammin' heroine.

I AM NOT INFERRING ANYONE IS INVOLVED IN DRUGS, in any way shape or form.

But, sometimes, the less said about things isn't such a bad thing. I honestly believe LE wants to know more about that crew in that other house and DB/JI's connection to them...be it nothing, as they've said....or something, they won't/can't say.


All, just IMO.

This was answered somewhere in reply to one of my posts. I will have to go look it up with the link
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MyTinkieGirl View Post
I'm still having trouble with DB's comment about "failing" the LDT...WHICH question in particular?? I don't remember her ever saying which one it was....correct me if I'm wrong, please.
IIRC she said it was "do you know where your daughter is at" but I don't have a link handy.
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  #764  
Old 11-22-2011, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by MyTinkieGirl View Post
I
WHICH question in particular??
Respectfully snipped by me

I believe the question was something regarding, where Lisa is?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:58 AM
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Yes, it was indeed a question regarding knowing the current location of her daughter. The one supposedly failed on the poly.

Poor lisa
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Karmaa View Post
I am not sure what scientific research says, but it would seem to me that unless it was a vacuum sealed container, the dogs could hit.

However, even if they couldn't that leaves some big questions. What happened to the container? It would float if there was air in it, so surely it would have been found by now. Unless there was a lot more than 30lb. in it. But if there was, what would a diabolical person put in the box that would not be traceable to them? Scott Peterson used concrete, but with only 4 hours, DB had no time for that.

Maybe she threw the container out and just dumped the baby? But where? Something large enough to hold a 30-lb baby would be large enough to catch the attention of searchers or LE. Unless she drove way further than just the river. Which would be risky because the longer she was away from home, the more likely she is to get caught, since she didn't know when JI would be home.

It just doesn't work easily. Not to say it couldn't be done, but it would require so much luck and forethought that it seems unlikely.
Just to throw a scenario out there but.. what if DB did have Lisa in an airtight container and dumped her in the river, then threw the airtight container in the dumpster, hence the dumpster fire,the plastic would have burned quickly. Even so, its not that far a walk to the river either and she either had help and its a mystery person that picked lisa up at the house while DB tried to straighten up and set things up for a kidnapping or she walked her there herself. I just find this to be a very likely scenario. So many area's of woods have been checked and yes, I know not all of them but if DB is like us, she watches all the crime shows and follows trials and knows that the river would wash away anything and chances of Lisa being found are almost none. So so sad.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:08 PM
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I have a question - since this thread has been going since Oct 18th and it is now Nov 22 - are we sure that the parents haven't been answering the questions in this time? Has LE made any recent statements that say they need answers? Has LE made any recent statements at all? These are not rhetorical questions - I can't always keep up everyday so I am not sure what LE has said in the past few weeks. thanks
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTinkieGirl View Post
I've been thinking about exactly WHAT is meant by statements such as these...."parents not answering vital questions"....at times, they almost appear cryptic to me.
Going along THOSE lines....just a wee bit off the thread topic...

I'm still having trouble with DB's comment about "failing" the LDT...WHICH question in particular?? I don't remember her ever saying which one it was....correct me if I'm wrong, please. Seems, it almost immediately became accepted/theorized as a question like "did you do something to your daughter". Heck, maybe they asked her what her weight or size she is and she "adjusted" it....LOL
I'm not a LDT expert, but as I've heard, doesn't it have to do with the question being asked and how it's phrased that can lead to a "deceptive" response??
Maybe she has a strong feeling about who she "thinks" it is, and the way the question was worded came up as her giving a deceptive answer. All question/speculation.

The "questions" matter gets me wondering, as well. It could just as well be something about the people who were there that night and why were they there....bouncing off the phone call to MW's phone and all these Shanes or Danes or whoever start popping up. Maybe DB doesn't want to end up looking worse than she already seems with the being drunk/blacked out stuff. I mean, sheesh, maybe she could have bought a joint off of one of them. In the media, it would go from an alkie to a drug addict slammin' heroine.

I AM NOT INFERRING ANYONE IS INVOLVED IN DRUGS, in any way shape or form.

But, sometimes, the less said about things isn't such a bad thing. I honestly believe LE wants to know more about that crew in that other house and DB/JI's connection to them...be it nothing, as they've said....or something, they won't/can't say.


All, just IMO.
I don't understand why they do Lie Detector Tests. They aren't admissible in Court. Also, Guilty people have been known to pass them, and Innocent people have been known to fail them.
This to me is a waste of resources when LE know that they aren't reliable. It also proves to me that they were trying to trap Debbie with something that they know is useless. This is disgraceful.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:21 PM
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It is so refreshing to see posters supporting the Lack of Evidence against Debbie Bradley and Jeremy Irwin. I am so tired of the automatic Guilty label in these Cases, long before anyone knows anything.
And even now after six weeks there is still nothing to point to their guilt, or the guilt of anyone else for that matter.
By all means lets discuss The Facts. There are some suspicious carryings on, but nothing to point to the parents at this stage.
I often can't specifically remember doing something that I do automatically, and am then surprised to discover that I didn't. I automatically lock my door every night, but got quite a shock one morning last week when I discovered that I hadn't. This could well explain why Debbie didn't specifically remember checking on Lisa before she went to bed that night, especially in the light of the shock and horror next morning. This does not point to her guilt.
And incidentally, I was stone cold sober when I forgot to lock the door.
I'm trying to catch up here but had to comment.

BBM

We don't know any of those things. All we know is there hasn't been an arrest yet. I think it's a bit of a leap from that fact to there isn't any evidence. I'm sure that LE has evidence. As to what that points to, we don't know yet, because there hasn't been an arrest.

Some things we do know. Lisa was last seen alive by her mother. Her parents reported her kidnapped. There was a lack of supervision the night Lisa disappeared. And the mother was drinking alcohol the night Lisa vanished.

If you take just those facts, you could insert other names and have the stories of other disappeared children where we do know what happened. While it doesn't prove anything, it does have the makings of cases we have all heard before, unfortunately.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:23 PM
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Just to throw a scenario out there but.. what if DB did have Lisa in an airtight container and dumped her in the river, then threw the airtight container in the dumpster, hence the dumpster fire,the plastic would have burned quickly. Even so, its not that far a walk to the river either and she either had help and its a mystery person that picked lisa up at the house while DB tried to straighten up and set things up for a kidnapping or she walked her there herself. I just find this to be a very likely scenario. So many area's of woods have been checked and yes, I know not all of them but if DB is like us, she watches all the crime shows and follows trials and knows that the river would wash away anything and chances of Lisa being found are almost none. So so sad.
Oh My. Debbie would have had to have been a very busy girl that night. And her not knowing what time Jeremy was likely to arrive home. Unless he was in on it as well.
And the thought of asking my brother to help me dispose of his dead niece leaves me in a state of shock.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:30 PM
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Just to throw a scenario out there but.. what if DB did have Lisa in an airtight container and dumped her in the river, then threw the airtight container in the dumpster, hence the dumpster fire,the plastic would have burned quickly. Even so, its not that far a walk to the river either and she either had help and its a mystery person that picked lisa up at the house while DB tried to straighten up and set things up for a kidnapping or she walked her there herself. I just find this to be a very likely scenario. So many area's of woods have been checked and yes, I know not all of them but if DB is like us, she watches all the crime shows and follows trials and knows that the river would wash away anything and chances of Lisa being found are almost none. So so sad.
While it is not that far of a walk to the river, you would also have to factor in the terrain and the fact that is it pitch black out. It is not as easy as a map makes it look and to get to the water itself is further than it looks also. Again in the pitch black of the night while leaving the other kids alone and JI possibly coming home at any minute.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:30 PM
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We know someone was busy that night. Supposedly someone sneaked in the woods in the dark. Is there any reason why DB's night vision would be any worse than Jersey's or a random perp's?

Leaving older children alone might not be a great concern for someone who was prepared to dispose of a baby.

She wouldn't be the first person to try and manage a cover up really fast while waiting for someone to come home.

I don't know if she did anything but if it was impossible for her to see anything in the dark how could a stranger perp have managed? Yet someone did move there in the pitch black.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:31 PM
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wow..hadn't been around this board much, lately. Looks like DB and JI have done a good job drumming up support! Not hard to do with media attorneys and large law firms. But, kind of sad, too. Where is the support for baby Lisa? Oh! That's right....local LE and the FBI are her support. Bless them for not giving up on her. For tirelessly searching...

What? IMO I think people on both sides of the debate agree that finding baby Lisa is most important just opinions on guilt and innocence is the disagreement. Why would anyone be here if they didn't want her to be found? I am sure people on both sides have shed tears over this little angel and want the guilty party to be punished. I think everyone here would love a happy ending where there is a miracle and baby Lisa is found safe and secure somewhere. I also believe everyone here would love to see the guilty person punished for they're crime some just disagree on who is guilty and right now LE doesn't have enough to arrest anyone so I think the argument can be made on both sides. I honestly think that this case and any other involving children especially brings out a lot of emotions in people, but that is because they feel a compassion for the child and people they see has victims in the case. Some see the parents has victims of a horrible act so they are putting themselves in that position. Others see the parents has the criminals who hurt a beautiful baby girl and that is they're position. what everyone has in common is the fact that they care about a beautiful child and want answers and the person responsible to be brought to justice.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:33 PM
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We know someone was busy that night.
Yep, and I am not picturing DB as having that much stamina.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:41 PM
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I don't understand why they do Lie Detector Tests. They aren't admissible in Court. Also, Guilty people have been known to pass them, and Innocent people have been known to fail them.
This to me is a waste of resources when LE know that they aren't reliable. It also proves to me that they were trying to trap Debbie with something that they know is useless. This is disgraceful.
IMO, asking DB to take a poly after her child went missing while she was supposedly sleeping and her husband was working does not prove that LE was trying to trap DB. Polys are simply one of many tools LE uses-no more, no less.

Under the circumstances, had LE not asked DB to take a poly-that I might label disgraceful.
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