Conrad Murray trial -Day nineteen.

[TxLady2]

Originally Posted by Credence

I could think of reasons I would like to hire him, but as an attorney wouldn't be one of them.

Oh, he is a cutie, isn't he!!! I'm old enough to be his mother, but if I was younger...

I was getting pretty angry with the 'expert' today, and his attitude. Combativeness does not come across too well with a jury!

Just wanted to thank everyone for the great posts, I can't be on the computer and watch the trial at the same time, so just get to drop in here every morning to zip through the threads. You're all doing a great job!

[oceanblueeyes]

Didn't Dr. Waldman say when he is looking to see what a person is on he also does a physical and has tests run on the liver to see if it shows any damage?

If MJ was really a full blown active addict for years and years then how could his liver be so totally healthy when he died?

IMO

[oceanblueeyes]

Originally Posted by Talina

I'm thinking that it could be what you say but I think it is very likely that he has areas on his face that are overly sensitive to pain due to all the plastic surgeries has had in the past. IMO Lots of potential there for damaged nerve endings and scar tissue. At least my personal experience with damaged nerve endings and scar tissue being painful on my knee tell me that could be the case for him, particularly on the face which is by nature typically more sensitive to pain.

Then, to add to that, all of the injections for Botox and that other filler (forgot the name of it) were in areas of the body that are typically just a tad more sensitive (face, arm pits and groin areas sweat glands being injected - that just sounds painful to me).

As far as other dermatologists and addiction specialists weighing in on this issue...I say pfft to their face time. (I'm looking at you two clowns that were on JVM last night)

For one thing, they have no idea the details to the types of procedures Dr. Klein was doing on MJ, MJ's pain tolerance or lack thereof for whatever reason. Now, if Dr. Klein were to give a detailed interview about the procedures, his opinion on why this amount of demerol were called for, etc. and the other doctors then wanted to give their opinion, that would be a different matter altogether. Until then, they have no idea what they are talking about or even giving an opinion about.

So now, I will end with the words of wisdom from the learned Mr. Mesereau as he so eloquently asked JVM while she obviously had her fingers in her ears since he had to repeat it a few times:

What does any of this have to do with what happened on June 25, 2009?


IMO

I imagine MJ had some serious nerve sensitivity or damage where needles to the face would be extremely painful.

I agree with you. Dr. Klein KNEW MJ and had known him for 25 years or more.

The bottom line for me is Klein was throughly investigated by the DEA and they found no wrongdoing. So that tells me he was within the FDA guidelines when he did these procedures.

I don't pay attention to talking heads who are just out for their 15 minutes of fame and I have tried to zone out for years when it comes to screaming JVM. If not, I would be as big a loon as she is.

IMO

[Talina]

Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes

I imagine MJ had some serious nerve sensitivity or damage where needles to the face would be extremely painful.

I agree with you. Dr. Klein KNEW MJ and had known him for 25 years or more.

The bottom line for me is Klein was throughly investigated by the DEA and they found no wrongdoing. So that tells me he was within the FDA guidelines when he did these procedures.

I don't pay attention to talking heads who are just out for their 15 minutes of fame and I have tried to zone out for years when it comes to screaming JVM. If not, I would be as big a loon as she is.

IMO

Everytime she is on the tv, hubby says to me "why do you have that channel on? she turns you into someone I don't recognize"

[Isabelle]

Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes

Didn't Dr. Waldman say when he is looking to see what a person is on he also does a physical and has tests run on the liver to see if it shows any damage?

If MJ was really a full blown active addict for years and years then how could his liver be so totally healthy when he died?

IMO

Most likely yes. And MJ would not be able to receive the Demerol intermittently as he did, since the half-life is 2.5 - 4 hours. I honestly believe that it is possible that Dr. Klein was giving him increasing amounts of Demerol without Michael's knowledge. I also noted that the amount of Demerol was reduced in the last visits (at least that is what it looked like on the graph and on the chart Dr. Waldman made. A Demerol addiction does not add up here for me.

[CarolinaMoon]

Just listening to a few snips of Dr. White's testimony from yesterday on IS. It's amazing that one of the defense theories at the opening of the trial, that MJ drank the propofol which killed him has been reduced to a bunch of piffle. Now, re-listening, I'm stunned to hear Dr. White attempt to say that it was a fleeting idea based on the propofol in the stomach and that it wasn't based much on his own opinion, but the opinions of others. He dismisses it figuratively with a wave of the hand. He was busy with other things, hadn't really given it much thought and ONLY filed a 3-page report. He called it "speculation" at that point.

I'm not buying that. Since when would THE WORLD'S most highly reknowned expert just dash off a few quick thoughts while he was busy with other things? Oh, and then have them screamed out loud in headlines and by the defense team?????

[Talina]

Originally Posted by CarolinaMoon

Just listening to a few snips of Dr. White's testimony from yesterday on IS. It's amazing that one of the defense theories at the opening of the trial, that MJ drank the propofol which killed him has been reduced to a bunch of piffle. Now, re-listening, I'm stunned to hear Dr. White attempt to say that it was a fleeting idea based on the propofol in the stomach and that it wasn't based much on his own opinion, but the opinions of others. He dismisses it figuratively with a wave of the hand. He was busy with other things, hadn't really given it much thought and ONLY filed a 3-page report. He called it "speculation" at that point.

I'm not buying that. Since when would THE WORLD'S most highly reknowned expert just dash off a few quick thoughts while he was busy with other things? Oh, and then have them screamed out loud in headlines and by the defense team?????

Exactly. Speculation should be communicated verbally and not reduced to writing unless it is abundantly clear in his writing that he is purely speculating. But then again, why would someone of his caliber issue a 3 page opinion and include speculations? Doesn't make any sense whatsoever. This even more so underlines probably why Dr. Shafer was disappointed that he'd even go there with that idea of oral ingestion.

IMO

[CarolinaMoon]

Originally Posted by Talina

Exactly. Speculation should be communicated verbally and not reduced to writing unless it is abundantly clear in his writing that he is purely speculating. But then again, why would someone of his caliber issue a 3 page opinion and include speculations? Doesn't make any sense whatsoever. This even more so underlines probably why Dr. Shafer was disappointed that he'd even go there with that idea of oral ingestion.

IMO

I also noted how well prepped Dr. White was. He was sure making nicey-nicey about Dr. Shafer while dismissing his testing. That academic rivalry is totally at a major simmer right now.

I do hope Dr. Shafer makes a reappearance on rebuttal if Walgren need to go one step further. On the other hand, I hope he doesn't reappear as Walgren demolished White on the stand Monday.

[Talina]

Originally Posted by CarolinaMoon

I also noted how well prepped Dr. White was. He was sure making nicey-nicey about Dr. Shafer while dismissing his testing. That academic rivalry is totally at a major simmer right now.

I do hope Dr. Shafer makes a reappearance on rebuttal if Walgren need to go one step further. On the other hand, I hope he doesn't reappear as Walgren demolished White on the stand Monday.

I'm probably too suspicious by nature but I see that as a hidden agenda there. Remember he has that contempt hearing looming over his head for his media comments and the "scumbag" nonsense. I think he is trying to gain favor with Judge Pastor to perhaps soften hearing outcome. I could be wrong but it just stinks to high heaven to me.

[peace9274]

GOOD MORNING EVERYONE!

WOW... a lot of very interesting thoughts & opinions this morning!
If I thought this thread was going to continue this morning, I wouldn't have posted the TMI about my son,
my cosmetic procedures & my up-coming colonoscopy, last night... LOL ... altho I do appreciate any & all info on how
yours went. And since I feel I know some of you so well, I like hearing about your RL, DHs & DC!

I hate that court may end early today! I've become so engrossed in this trial, that it's become the major part
of my daily routine. Everything else has been put on the back-burner! I'm still not prepared for doing the much
needed house cleaning & much needed physical exercise!

And so... let the show begin!

[oceanblueeyes]

Originally Posted by Isabelle

Most likely yes. And MJ would not be able to receive the Demerol intermittently as he did, since the half-life is 2.5 - 4 hours. I honestly believe that it is possible that Dr. Klein was giving him increasing amounts of Demerol without Michael's knowledge. I also noted that the amount of Demerol was reduced in the last visits (at least that is what it looked like on the graph and on the chart Dr. Waldman made. A Demerol addiction does not add up here for me.

The attorney for Dr. Klein said MJ NEVER asked to be given demerol. DK gave him the med he thought would work best.

I have said from the very beginning of hearing about the demerol that it is just another one of the many red herrings the DT has tried to use.

IMO

[oceanblueeyes]

Originally Posted by Talina

I'm probably too suspicious by nature but I see that as a hidden agenda there. Remember he has that contempt hearing looming over his head for his media comments and the "scumbag" nonsense. I think he is trying to gain favor with Judge Pastor to perhaps soften hearing outcome. I could be wrong but it just stinks to high heaven to me.

I think this has become personal to Dr. White. Dr. Shafer is not in competition with Dr. White but I do believe Dr. White believes he is in competition with DS.

This has become more about White trying to prove his POV than being a true professional.

IMO

[Velouria]

Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes

I no more believe White completed this at 11 pm last night.

This is another way to sandbag the state.

They didnt want Walgren to have a chance to confer with DS.

Snakes.

IMOO

They're resorting to Baezian tactics, IMO.

[outofstatelawyer]

Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes

I think this has become personal to Dr. White. Dr. Shafer is not in competition with Dr. White but I do believe Dr. White believes he is in competition with DS.

This has become more about White trying to prove his POV than being a true professional.

IMO

True dat. It couldn't have made him happy that even Flanagan was calling him Dr. Shafer!

This whole demerol thing mystifies me. I don't think the average person would think an addict would only get his "drug" every 5 or 10 days or so. And I still don't see the nexus between demerol and an overdose of propofol, other than it paints MJ as a drug fiend who would do anything for any drug. Murray was clearly on notice about MJ's visits to Klein before he killed MJ, and I think that recording from May 10 proves that (along with his statements about MJ visiting and calling Klein). And, again, it seems to me that made Murray leaving the room even more egregious.

As for White trying to minimize his "swallowing" propofol theory, he put that in his written report. I expect our boy Dave to beat White over the head with that one. He will argue that the rest of White's report shouldn't be trusted either.

I wish I knew more about the voir dire in this case and who these jurors really are and what their mindset coming in was.

[outofstatelawyer]

Originally Posted by Velouria

They're resorting to Baezian tactics, IMO.

I would bet my next house payment that Shafer and Walgren were poring over those new charts last night. If, in fact, the court breaks early today, they will have even more time to decimate White on cross.

[Isabelle]

Originally Posted by outofstatelawyer

I would bet my next house payment that Shafer and Walgren were poring over those new charts last night. If, in fact, the court breaks early today, they will have even more time to decimate White on cross.

Am sure Dr. Shafer will run the program with his data and he will use the scientific method.

[Isabelle]

Any Benzodiazepine (Lorazepam, Midazolam, Diazepam, etc) given or taken in sufficient quantity will render a person unable to respond to stimuli, verbal, tactile, painful. It is not an analgesic (pain reliever), but it will depress the nervous system so that a person is unable to respond. At that point, probably need ventilatory assistance and reversal agent.

Dr. White should have prefaced his statement about this. Am sure Pt will bring it up.

[Sedonia Sunset]

Originally Posted by peace9274

I agree. He flubbed as an expert witness for the defense.
Watch for CM's bald patches to be much larger tomorrow.
And for Chernoff & Flanagan's brow lines to be deeper!!!

Dr. Klein might be able to help them out with both of those issues.

[borndem]

Originally Posted by CarolinaMoon

I also noted how well prepped Dr. White was. He was sure making nicey-nicey about Dr. Shafer while dismissing his testing. That academic rivalry is totally at a major simmer right now.

I do hope Dr. Shafer makes a reappearance on rebuttal if Walgren need to go one step further. On the other hand, I hope he doesn't reappear as Walgren demolished White on the stand Monday.

I think it is imperative that Shafer is included in rebuttal, and I think Shafer would fight for it as well. I can just see him getting excited in his easy-ging manner, but his drive for "good medicine" if over-powering in him.

The direct would not have to be adversarial, just factual, and they, of course, will need to steer this now sneakily spun-out-of-control train back onto the "why we're here" track -- deviations of Standards of Care, and negligence, and subtly weave in CM's arrogance and greediness (he needed the money badly & knew the line he'd have to toe, so he exchanged his MD hat for his loyal employee hat).

Like we don't already know this!!!! But there it is. Again.



End of mini-rant........



And Good Morning, folks!!

[borndem]

Originally Posted by Talina

I'm probably too suspicious by nature but I see that as a hidden agenda there. Remember he has that contempt hearing looming over his head for his media comments and the "scumbag" nonsense. I think he is trying to gain favor with Judge Pastor to perhaps soften hearing outcome. I could be wrong but it just stinks to high heaven to me.

Right-on, Sistah!

Your nose is working just fine, BTW.

Good Sunday morning (or afternoon) to you!

((hug))