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Susan Cox Powell Missing from West Valley City, Utah, and last seen on December 6, 2009.


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Old 02-13-2012, 08:34 PM
mamamia54 mamamia54 is offline
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Are they holding Josh Powell's Body?

I've seen a few people that are wondering when Josh Powell is going to be buried, and by whom. It almost makes me wonder if they are attempting to make a positive identification. All I've heard is it was presumed that it was his body. Am I incorrect?
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:07 PM
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I've seen a few people that are wondering when Josh Powell is going to be buried, and by whom. It almost makes me wonder if they are attempting to make a positive identification. All I've heard is it was presumed that it was his body. Am I incorrect?
OMG, I can't believe they wouldn't have done that already. It better be him. jmo
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:18 PM
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I can't find a link for this, but on Seattle radio station KIRO 97.3 FM, it was reported this morning (2/13) that Josh's body was released to his aunt and uncle today.
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:28 PM
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I am wondering why the aunt and uncle and not his brothers and sisters??? mother???
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:35 PM
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Maybe his brain should be studied for science.
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:58 PM
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I am sure they checked to make sure its him. There have been a few cases where someone set a fire and burned a body in order to escape/get insurance, etc. So its not out of the realm of possibility and I am sure they checked.
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:55 PM
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Unhappy

Good Luck to him in the afterlife. He'll be in pergatory forever. It's not for me to judge..."Only God Can Judge".

I'm literally sick over what he did to his sons (and his wife).

As a somewhat "normal" (LOL) person, I would throw myself in front of a truck to save my sons.

He was soooo mentally ill.
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:59 PM
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The aunt and uncle in Texas ?
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:55 PM
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I am wondering why the aunt and uncle and not his brothers and sisters??? mother???
He must have left instructions to give his remains to them since he left them other instructions. Maybe?
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:18 AM
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I'm suprised anyone would claim him. Though his father would if he wasn't in jail.

Good luck finding a pastor/clergy to give this evil man any type of service.

ICK!

MOO

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Old 02-14-2012, 03:27 AM
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I'm suprised anyone would claim him. Though his father would if he wasn't in jail.

Good luck finding a pastor/clergy to give this evil man any type of service.

ICK!

MOO

Mel
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I'm confused. I'm not a Christian and I was not raised in an Abrahamic religion, so points of doctrine often puzzle me.

I thought it was Christian doctrine to, well, be optimistic and hope that someone who has committed such an act had a moment of clarity just before death in which they repented of their sins and accepted Christ as their saviour, etc. And so a clergyman would give a service for someone like Josh Powell, just in case JP had such a conversion experience.

Maybe I'm over-simplifying out of unfamiliarity with the Abrahamic religions, though.
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:00 AM
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I'm confused. I'm not a Christian and I was not raised in an Abrahamic religion, so points of doctrine often puzzle me.

I thought it was Christian doctrine to, well, be optimistic and hope that someone who has committed such an act had a moment of clarity just before death in which they repented of their sins and accepted Christ as their saviour, etc. And so a clergyman would give a service for someone like Josh Powell, just in case JP had such a conversion experience.

Maybe I'm over-simplifying out of unfamiliarity with the Abrahamic religions, though.
Most clergymen will do a service for someone, even a murderer, because they would want to console the living and give them some peace.

For most Christians, the departed have made their choices before death and are considered to be facing judgment in the afterlife. Some Christians believe in Purgatory, where the dead - especially suicides - can still be prayed for prior to judgment. I don't know what the status of a double-murder-suicide would be, with Susan's disappearance also possibly due to Josh as well.

I think it's a safe bet, religion-wise, that Josh didn't have a last-minute conversion considering he did an axe-job on his children then lit a match to blow up his house before they were completely dead. He was apparently a sociopath incapable of knowing right from wrong, so whatever his beliefs, he wasn't following any Christian principles when he chose to kill himself and those boys.

"What if someone leads one of these little ones who believe in me to sin? If he does, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck."
Jesus, Mark 8:42
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by GrainneDhu View Post
BBM

I'm confused. I'm not a Christian and I was not raised in an Abrahamic religion, so points of doctrine often puzzle me.

I thought it was Christian doctrine to, well, be optimistic and hope that someone who has committed such an act had a moment of clarity just before death in which they repented of their sins and accepted Christ as their saviour, etc. And so a clergyman would give a service for someone like Josh Powell, just in case JP had such a conversion experience.

Maybe I'm over-simplifying out of unfamiliarity with the Abrahamic religions, though.
You are right...there are many possibilities for a service. I used to help with the funeral ministry at our church, and there are all kinds of options in the book for Catholic priests.

(OT: My favorite that I never knew about: A funeral Mass for the non-Catholic spouse of a Catholic. DH is getting that b/c he always says he doesn't care. Okey-dokey! )

I think they will probably lay him to rest with a simple graveside ceremony, maybe only the aunt and uncle and minister or even just a funeral director there, and probably no marker for a long time to keep people from vandalizing it.

Whoever finds a few comforting words to say about Josh should get a big tip. I can't imagine writing that speech.
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:13 AM
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Most clergymen will do a service for someone, even a murderer, because they would want to console the living and give them some peace.

For most Christians, the departed have made their choices before death and are considered to be facing judgment in the afterlife. Some Christians believe in Purgatory, where the dead - especially suicides - can still be prayed for prior to judgment. I don't know what the status of a double-murder-suicide would be, with Susan's disappearance also possibly due to Josh as well.

I think it's a safe bet, religion-wise, that Josh didn't have a last-minute conversion considering he did an axe-job on his children then lit a match to blow up his house before they were completely dead. He was apparently a sociopath incapable of knowing right from wrong, so whatever his beliefs, he wasn't following any Christian principles when he chose to kill himself and those boys.
BBM

I agree that it is highly unlikely for the reasons you give.

However, I thought Abrahamic religions believed in miracles? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really serious--I've never been able to figure out the "rules" for miracles, so to speak.

I don't *think* it matters from an Abrahamic religion theological viewpoint how likely it is that Josh Powell had a last second conversion or not because isn't that the definition of a miracle? Something happens that is unlikely or even impossible according to the knowledge or judgment of most humans? There is a finite albeit infinitesimal chance he did, so a Christian funeral would be possible.

Or would it? (so confusing)

I suppose that to someone raised or believing in one of the Abrahamic religions would find my responsibility according to Buddhist precepts to find compassion within me even for Josh Powell equally confusing. And I would be the first to admit that I often fail at the compassion thing, shamefully often.
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:35 AM
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I can find some compassion for Josh as someone who was very deeply troubled, but what he did was unthinkable...and have to believe God will handle him to his will. I realize JP did have a choice, but I think his father had such a twisted grip on him he couldn't get passed it. If he was innocent and/or martyred himself for his father....it's even worse; and since everyone under SP's control stood by Josh...I don't think it would be out of the question, tbh. Whatever the case, it will zip right by SP's conscience, imo.
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by GrainneDhu View Post
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I agree that it is highly unlikely for the reasons you give.

However, I thought Abrahamic religions believed in miracles? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really serious--I've never been able to figure out the "rules" for miracles, so to speak.

I don't *think* it matters from an Abrahamic religion theological viewpoint how likely it is that Josh Powell had a last second conversion or not because isn't that the definition of a miracle? Something happens that is unlikely or even impossible according to the knowledge or judgment of most humans? There is a finite albeit infinitesimal chance he did, so a Christian funeral would be possible.

Or would it? (so confusing)

I suppose that to someone raised or believing in one of the Abrahamic religions would find my responsibility according to Buddhist precepts to find compassion within me even for Josh Powell equally confusing. And I would be the first to admit that I often fail at the compassion thing, shamefully often.
It's not a lack of compassion, I don't think, to say that Josh committed an act of evil. We have to look at the facts.

And there are no "rules" for miracles. The miracle would have been if he had decided not to kill his boys that day. But that's not what happened.

I don't really want to debate religion with you here, but as a Christian I can tell you that someone who planned out a murder suicide for his own children did not have a last-minute conversion, or he wouldn't have lit that match and blown himself up along with them. His last act on earth would be considered evil by most cultures on earth, religious or secular, since killing children in no way helps the human race.

ETA: Christians believe that evil exists and that people have to feel remorse in order to be washed clean of it. Josh has never shown any remorse about his missing wife, and his last act on earth was totally selfish and cruel, not just to his boys, but also their extended family and the social worker who watched them go up in flames. Josh made a clear choice to do something evil - that was his choice.
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:34 AM
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They can have an elaborate funeral and say all kinds of prayers and scriptures over his body, it won't change the fact that he murdered his sons and took his own life. Maybe people would be more able to have compassion if he had just killed himself and allowed those boys to grow up and live a decent life. There was no reason whatsoever to take their lives, he did that to exact revenge on Susan's family, to make them suffer even more than they already have. Even IF he had a moment of clarity at the end, and begged forgiveness for what he was about to do.... I'm not sure that is an act that God will forgive. I was brought up to believe that the sin of suicide was unforgivable, because God can only forgive you for what you've already done... not what you are about to do.
Doesn't matter to me if they have a big funeral or just a graveside service, or if they only dig a hole and bury his remains. It won't change what he did.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:49 AM
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JP will probably have a visitation and service as his family traditions dictate. If they ask a pastor, most likely the pastor would give a carefully worded service. The Christian religion is big on forgiveness, on the fact that judgement is Our Father's business not ours. And there is also the care and comfort of the other family members to consider.

I have no guesses on what the family will decide to do with service. Allegedly the SP now shunned religion. But JP had a pastor. So could be a funeral service, but most likely would be a memorial type service. Surely they won't have a "celebration of life." Most likely it will be a private service, invitation only. Maybe at the funeral home. I do look for burial to be in the same cemetary as the boys, even if he isn't placed next to them.
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:15 PM
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I hope they bury him up there .. we don't need the circus down here ...

Just sayin' ...
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:49 PM
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I hope they bury him up there .. we don't need the circus down here ...

Just sayin' ...
Amen to that!
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:53 PM
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I am guessing that his body will be quietly released at some point and he will be buried or cremated as quietly as possible. Although I really do wish he had left his body to science, you never know what might be gleaned from a brain such as his.
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:56 PM
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I am guessing that his body will be quietly released at some point and he will be buried or cremated as quietly as possible. Although I really do wish he had left his body to science, you never know what might be gleaned from a brain such as his.
Boiled/charred brains probably wouldn't glean much ...

imo
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:58 PM
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Boiled/charred brains probably wouldn't glean much ...

imo
That's actually a very logical point!
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:37 PM
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It's not a lack of compassion, I don't think, to say that Josh committed an act of evil. We have to look at the facts.

And there are no "rules" for miracles. The miracle would have been if he had decided not to kill his boys that day. But that's not what happened.

I don't really want to debate religion with you here, but as a Christian I can tell you that someone who planned out a murder suicide for his own children did not have a last-minute conversion, or he wouldn't have lit that match and blown himself up along with them. His last act on earth would be considered evil by most cultures on earth, religious or secular, since killing children in no way helps the human race.

ETA: Christians believe that evil exists and that people have to feel remorse in order to be washed clean of it. Josh has never shown any remorse about his missing wife, and his last act on earth was totally selfish and cruel, not just to his boys, but also their extended family and the social worker who watched them go up in flames. Josh made a clear choice to do something evil - that was his choice.
BBM

No, Buddhist compassion does not require one to condone acts of harm or violence. It does mean that one finds a way to have compassion even for people who do great harm or violence.

What I am thinking about is a study that was done about 30 years ago. A researcher tracked down as many of the survivors of a jump off the Golden Gate bridge (he found around 40) and asked them if they could remember what they were thinking *after* they took the irrevocable action of jumping off the bridge before they hit the water. The fall is about 4 seconds, so there's time to have thoughts.

Every single one said something along the lines of "after I jumped, I wished I hadn't done it, I realised my problems weren't so bad and that this was the wrong thing to do."

There's a similar account from a survivor from 2000 here:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...197707,00.html

As I understand it, Abrahamic theology would approve of a service for Josh Powell based on the (very faint) possibility that he had a few seconds or moments of clarity and remorse after he lit that match.

And thus would be willing to conduct a funeral service for him, if requested.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:39 PM
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JP will probably have a visitation and service as his family traditions dictate. If they ask a pastor, most likely the pastor would give a carefully worded service. The Christian religion is big on forgiveness, on the fact that judgement is Our Father's business not ours. And there is also the care and comfort of the other family members to consider.

I have no guesses on what the family will decide to do with service. Allegedly the SP now shunned religion. But JP had a pastor. So could be a funeral service, but most likely would be a memorial type service. Surely they won't have a "celebration of life." Most likely it will be a private service, invitation only. Maybe at the funeral home. I do look for burial to be in the same cemetary as the boys, even if he isn't placed next to them.
Thank you, that clarifies things for me.
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