Josh Powell Burial

[dovebar]

JP's grandmother Ouita - of "you'll never see your mother again" fame - is buried with her husband Vacil in Grandview Cemetery, Yakima. A lot of this seems to have started with them. Maybe there's a plot there.

JMO

[Nova]

Originally Posted by Meri

I'm trying to look at it like this - Josh Powell, himself, was once just like his little boys. Had he not been raised by a madman, only God knows what kind of person he could have been.

So true.

Not a burial matter, but: Does anyone know how Mormon theology understands the afterlife of Joshua and Susan and their children? In my limited understanding, the father of a family is the priesthood holder, and he and his wife and unmarried children spend eternity together, but also somehow in contact with other relatives.

Did Josh Powell effectively resign from the church with his horrendous actions? Is he presumed to be in Hell and away from Susan and their boys? Can he be rescued from his fate at some future time with a baptism-by-proxy ritual or did he prevent that remedy by consciously rejecting the church?

As we all should know by now, TOS prevents the bashing of Mormons and this is not an invitation to debate their beliefs. I would merely like to understand what they believe, if anyone here knows.

(ETA to Bessie: after I posted the above, I read your admonition for us to stay on topic. My questions don't seem to require a new thread and it seems related because it deals with issues of whether JP and his victims will share proximity after death. I'm merely asking about their souls now that the issue of their bodies seems to be resolved (well, except for Susan's, of course).)

[dovebar]

Originally Posted by Nova

So true.

Not a burial matter, but: Does anyone know how Mormon theology understands the afterlife of Joshua and Susan and their children? In my limited understanding, the father of a family is the priesthood holder, and he and his wife and unmarried children spend eternity together, but also somehow in contact with other relatives.

Did Josh Powell effectively resign from the church with his horrendous actions? Is he presumed to be in Hell and away from Susan and their boys? Can he be rescued from his fate at some future time with a baptism-by-proxy ritual or did he prevent that remedy by consciously rejecting the church?

As we all should know by now, TOS prevents the bashing of Mormons and this is not an invitation to debate their beliefs. I would merely like to understand what they believe, if anyone here knows.

My understanding is that Susan and the boys are together, since they were born to her under the seal of a temple marriage. Josh is most likely in hell, maybe even in a subhell known as "outer darkness." Of course, it's all up to God because, a God might find some mercy in the fact that JP was himself obviously abused. But then so was SP, evidently. We don't know how far back it goes or where evil starts or resides or who can be rehabbed - that's a God decision or job. Mormons do believe in choice, but how that is reconciled with early conditioning, etc. is, IIRC, up to God. Mormons who commit felonies are typically excommunicated, but some can be rebaptized after repentance.

Whether that could happen in a next life is probably up to a God. I don't know whether the church consciously does baptisms for the dead for those convicted of or suspected of serious crimes. My understanding is that baptisms for the dead are solely to give people an option who did not have the opportunity in this life. Clearly, JP had an opportunity and blew it - at least from what we can see and know. Living on earth is supposed to mean something, a chance to get a body and learn through living in that body and having experiences that can only happen here. I'm not sure whether people who blow that as utterly as he did get a "do-over."

BTW, Brigham Young - if I remember correctly - believed that some of the very wicked would not continue as souls but would be taken apart and reorganized in some way. While Mormons believe that the soul has a personality that existed before earth, and exists after earth (and will be reunited with its perfected eternal body after the 2nd coming), he seemed to think that there were souls so depraved that they were beyond help and they would need to start from scratch. Kind of wild, but when you think about all we are learning about DNA....maybe that just makes it wilder but somehow fitting when we read about people who really seem beyond help. Even Jeffrey Dahmer said he knew he was just completely unable to be helped.

[dovebar]

BTW, if I remember correctly, Mormon theology would teach that Susan will be able to raise her boys - that the boys will be able to have a full life.

Maybe this happens in the millenium, the thousand years of peace after Christ's return...can't recall.

Also, because they died at that age, they are considered to have died completely without sin.

[Nova]

Thank you very much, dovebar. I really appreciate you sharing your recall. I'm always interested in what people think and why.

[dovebar]

Originally Posted by Nova

Thank you very much, dovebar. I really appreciate you sharing your recall. I'm always interested in what people think and why.

You're welcome. Maybe others will correct me if I screwed anything up. To answer your first question, presumably Susan and the boys are in contact with other family members who passed on before them. Just because JP was the priesthood holder in the marriage does not mean she was "stuck" with him eternally.

JP, we probably know less about who he might be with or where he is.

BTW, I believe the church is not so pro-cremation - unless it is part of the member's culture (Polynesian, FI?) - because they believe that the body will literally be revived after the Second Coming. Maybe cremation would make this more challenging. :-)

[passionflower]

since he was known to hate the mormon faith, did he take on any other faith?
Does SP practise any other faith?

[dovebar]

Originally Posted by passionflower

since he was known to hate the mormon faith, did he take on any other faith?
Does SP practise any other faith?

He was going to another Christian church in the area. How heartfelt that was, and how much was for show, or to use the church's resources, only JP would know. I think it was nondenominational.

[nomad]

I ran across this death certificate on inside edition site. Not sure if it's real though.Says cod is carbon monoxide poisoning. Also says he's cremated


http://www.insideedition.com/lib/pdf...ath%20cert.pdf

[cocomod]

I am of the LDS (or "Mormon") faith. We believe that had Josh lived up to the principles of our church, he would have lived in eternity with Susan and the boys. Basically, since he committed such a horrific crime, he will never see Susan or the boys again. Susan will be able to raise her beautiful boys; and she will have the opportunity to find a deserving husband. She has true happiness now and so do the boys.

Dovebar is correct in many the explanation that he/she has provided.

Josh would not have a "baptism for the dead" performed for him. That is saved for those that did not have the opportunity here on this earth to be taught the LDS belief. I will not continue on about our religion, but I just wanted to answer the basic questioned asked.

[Zoe Bogart]

Originally Posted by cocomod

I am of the LDS (or "Mormon") faith. We believe that had Josh lived up to the principles of our church, he would have lived in eternity with Susan and the boys. Basically, since he committed such a horrific crime, he will never see Susan or the boys again. Susan will be able to raise her beautiful boys; and she will have the opportunity to find a deserving husband. She has true happiness now and so do the boys.

Dovebar is correct in many the explanation that he/she has provided.

Josh would not have a "baptism for the dead" performed for him. That is saved for those that did not have the opportunity here on this earth to be taught the LDS belief. I will not continue on about our religion, but I just wanted to answer the basic questioned asked.

Just to clarify, as I think I heard Mr. Cox or some other family member say it, too. So the LDS believes Susan will "raise her boys" in the afterlife or other life, or whatever it's called. She will also be able to get married?

I must admit when I heard it said, I thought I misunderstood. That is the belief? It's quite comforting actually. I never thought we could raise our children or find a new spouse after death. Most interesting. I guess I just thought we'd live in eternal happiness without worldly ties. Not that I really give it much thought. I'd rather be surprised.

Maybe this is why the Coxes appear to have a certain calm about them.

Thanks also to dovebar for the insight. While I know a few LDS members, and even use their local family history center for research, we've never spoken about beliefs. Thanks for sharing.

If JP was cremated, I think it was a good choice.

[gwenabob]

Originally Posted by Zoe Bogart

If JP was cremated, I think it was a good choice.

I totally agree. They can keep the ashes if they like, or scatter them. Now they won't have to worry about Josh's grave being vandalized and others won't be reluctant to be buried near him. It was the best choice. I'm glad his family saw the light.

[cocomod]

Originally Posted by Zoe Bogart

Just to clarify, as I think I heard Mr. Cox or some other family member say it, too. So the LDS believes Susan will "raise her boys" in the afterlife or other life, or whatever it's called. She will also be able to get married?

I must admit when I heard it said, I thought I misunderstood. That is the belief? It's quite comforting actually. I never thought we could raise our children or find a new spouse after death. Most interesting. I guess I just thought we'd live in eternal happiness without worldly ties. Not that I really give it much thought. I'd rather be surprised.

Maybe this is why the Coxes appear to have a certain calm about them.

Thanks also to dovebar for the insight. While I know a few LDS members, and even use their local family history center for research, we've never spoken about beliefs. Thanks for sharing.

If JP was cremated, I think it was a good choice.

Yes, we believe that Susan will have the opportunity to get married. There are no monetary or other earthly things; but love is abundant. It does help with any death in the family. Our religion does help bring comfort even in the face of the death of a child. I am certain that our religion is what is helping the Cox family to cope with this terrible tragedy.

[Pensfan]

Originally Posted by passionflower

since he was known to hate the mormon faith, did he take on any other faith?
Does SP practise any other faith?

Yes, he, sadly, worshipped his perv father who controlled his bizarre family like a cult.

[news247]

best money i ever spent for those little souls to have a peaceful resting place - so good of the local area crimestoper's and sheriff's office to get this going!

[mysteriew]

Originally Posted by nomad

I ran across this death certificate on inside edition site. Not sure if it's real though.Says cod is carbon monoxide poisoning. Also says he's cremated


http://www.insideedition.com/lib/pdf...ath%20cert.pdf

If he was cremated then if I was the Cox's, I would be going to the gravesite every week and using the snow blower on it.

[jmarple]

Originally Posted by mysteriew

If he was cremated then if I was the Cox's, I would be going to the gravesite every week and using the snow blower on it.

I think mother nature will take of the site. We've been having big winds here the last few days, pounding rain, etc.