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  #351  
Old 03-20-2012, 11:37 PM
curl_in_progress curl_in_progress is offline
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I've been trying to come up with a scenario of how TM ended up face down as well. Here is MOO of what MIGHT have happened. If you listen the extended interview given by the neighbor named Mary, she says that she sees GZ with his arms stretched out and it looks like he pressing on TM after the shooting. Then she sees TM's leg move, but thinks it might have been an after death movement. She isn't sure. But she says she is sure whatever GZ was doing to the body wasn't to help TM. (I'm assuming she means CPR.)

Well, in my opinion, I think TM was not originally face down. I think GZ frisked TM to look for the weapon I'm sure he thought Tray had on him. Tray may have been face up first immediately after the shooting and GZ checked his front pockets for a "weapon" then rolled him over to check the back of his waistband and then lifted his leg to check his socks/shoes near his ankle.

That could explain Mary seeing the leg move. GZ finds skittles and iced tea instead of a weapon and that's why he's seen with his hands on his head giving the WTF did I just do look that was reported.

Again, this is all speculation and just a guess on my part.

I really hate that we don't know what happened to this young man. I can only pray that forensics will speak when Tray cannot.
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  #352  
Old 03-20-2012, 11:40 PM
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Actually, I would say running shows fear for his safety. Guilty or innocent Zimmerman has already been judged guilty by lot's of folks. Again, guilty or innocent, if you were Zimmerman, wouldn't you be some where no one would recognize you?



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Originally Posted by HiHater View Post
You're right my mistake! I guess nothing they can do if even if he was a flight risk. I'm sure he's still in FL though, running would be consciousness of guilt.
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  #353  
Old 03-20-2012, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
Yes, I too would love to know what his neighbors are thinking....and I don't doubt that to some of them GZ is a very nice guy, someone who was willing to help out and everything that they claim him to be..... I hope that at some quiet introspective moment, they sit down and start to think about what GZ was attempting to accomplish, and how far away from that his poor judgement got them. They just wanted a quiet safe community, but what they got was a community that now has a history of shooting to death an unarmed kid who was committing no crime, about as far from quiet and safe as it is possible to be.

Even IF Trayvon had been absolutely up to no good, if he was intending to vandalize or steal...How many bicycles, or plastic flamingos, or lawn mowers or whatever he could have carried away on foot were worth a person's life? Any person's life, let alone an innocent person.

This is America, we don't punish theft with the death penalty, and in light of that, I wonder if Mr. Zimmerman ever gets introspective enough to wonder why he didn't just stay in his truck and let LE handle things...even if something might have gotten stolen
Just now catching up here and saw this post. Every sentence of your post is right on, but I especially like the statement I have bolded!!!

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  #354  
Old 03-20-2012, 11:43 PM
Sensei Sensei is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curl_in_progress View Post
I've been trying to come up with a scenario of how TM ended up face down as well. Here is MOO of what MIGHT have happened. If you listen the extended interview given by the neighbor named Mary, she says that she sees GZ with his arms stretched out and it looks like he pressing on TM after the shooting. Then she sees TM's leg move, but thinks it might have been an after death movement. She isn't sure. But she says she is sure whatever GZ was doing to the body wasn't to help TM. (I'm assuming she means CPR.)

Well, in my opinion, I think TM was not originally face down. I think GZ frisked TM to look for the weapon I'm sure he thought Tray had on him. Tray may have been face up first immediately after the shooting and GZ checked his front pockets for a "weapon" then rolled him over to check the back of his waistband and then lifted his leg to check his socks/shoes near his ankle.

That could explain Mary seeing the leg move. GZ finds skittles and iced tea instead of a weapon and that's why he's seen with his hands on his head giving the WTF did I just do look that was reported.

Again, this is all speculation and just a guess on my part.

I really hate that we don't know what happened to this young man. I can only pray that forensics will speak when Tray cannot.


Excellent plausible and logical....Wouldn't it be helpful if in their initial interview with GZ the PD has asked him if he moved the body either to searchfor weapons or render aid? Wonder if they did, and I wonder if we will ever know!
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  #355  
Old 03-20-2012, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rossva View Post
Actually, I would say running shows fear for his safety. Guilty or innocent Zimmerman has already been judged guilty by lot's of folks. Again, guilty or innocent, if you were Zimmerman, wouldn't you be some where no one would recognize you?
Kind of like Trayvon was running in fear for his safety.
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  #356  
Old 03-20-2012, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by rossva View Post
Actually, I would say running shows fear for his safety. Guilty or innocent Zimmerman has already been judged guilty by lot's of folks. Again, guilty or innocent, if you were Zimmerman, wouldn't you be some where no one would recognize you?
Running and hiding are two very different things.

& I would never be Zimmerman, because I operate in the realm of reality. I have taken numerous criminal justice courses, but I realize I am not a cop.
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  #357  
Old 03-20-2012, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Kaliste View Post
Kind of like Trayvon was running in fear for his safety.
At least if Mr Zimmerman finds himself walking down a sidewalk with an unmarked truck stealthly following him, or being chased by a burly man with no obvious credentials, he is not likely to be confused about exactly why they are following him.

Not that anyone should ever under any circumstances do any such thing....more random thoughtless violence is NOT the answer to any problem or the punishment for bad judgement and stupidity.
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  #358  
Old 03-20-2012, 11:56 PM
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729,465 Siggies, on Tray'a petition Y'all...
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  #359  
Old 03-20-2012, 11:58 PM
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WFTV says not racial slur. For those that have suggested Zimmerman was a racist based on that recording - see how easy it is to hear what you want and make snap judgements, exactly what Zimmerman did when he saw Martin.

Perhaps Martin thought (as many others thought) he heard Zimmerman make a racial slur, and as passionate as people get over such slurs, did attack Zimmerman.

As tragic as Martin's death is, I think it's going to be difficult to prove Zimmerman technically broke any laws.



"Throughout the day, people on social media websites began reporting that they heard the racial slur; however, others said they don't believe that it was an offensive comment. To listen for yourself, click here.

WFTV had an audio expert listen to the call, and determined that the word said was "punks.""

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/state-...y-shoot/nLX9c/
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  #360  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:00 AM
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Where do you think he is? Running, or hiding?


Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHater View Post
Running and hiding are two very different things.

& I would never be Zimmerman, because I operate in the realm of reality. I have taken numerous criminal justice courses, but I realize I am not a cop.
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  #361  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:01 AM
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Have we gotten any type of confirmation on Trayvon's phone? Did LE take it that night? We've heard that Trayvon's parents don't have it. I also saw something about SPD asking the parents for the phone (or was it just the records?).

So, if SPD don't have it and Trayvon's parents don't have it - then WTH is it? Could that be was GZ was doing right after he shot him? GZ could have been looking for a weapon as well - grabbed the phone and rolled him over - that would explain why Trayvon was face down with his hands underneath.

ITA the angle of the gunshot wound will say alot.

JMHO
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  #362  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belle3 View Post
Maybe he fell backwards as he shot trayvon. Considering it was raining isnt it possible he slipped backwards?
I think it's rather more likely (based on witnesses) that the two of them were fighting and GZ was on the bottom at some point.
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  #363  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:03 AM
curl_in_progress curl_in_progress is offline
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Does anyone have any thoughts on how the call with Tray and his girlfriend dropped so quickly? I'm surprised she didn't hear more of the altercation. I can definitely see the phone call eventually dropping during a struggle, but I just can't figure out how one push would cause the phone to disconnect.
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  #364  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LolaMoon08 View Post
I think we should know exactly what Zimmerman was wearing because some say he was wearing a white T-shirt. Other's say a red T-shirt. This guy says a red sweater? If it was a red sweater, I wonder if it was a hoodie?

Still contradicts a lot of the call and statements already made by LE in this case? We'll see! I want to see Zimmerman's written/recorded original statements to LE!
There was a woman witness I believe who claimed there was a man outside wearing white t-shirt. Other than that I don't know anyone else who claimed GZ was wearing white. A statement attributed to a 13 year old boy witness indicated GZ was wearing red and was the one on the ground.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
At least if Mr Zimmerman finds himself walking down a sidewalk with an unmarked truck stealthly following him, or being chased by a burly man with no obvious credentials, he is not likely to be confused about exactly why they are following him.

Not that anyone should ever under any circumstances do any such thing....more random thoughtless violence is NOT the answer to any problem or the punishment for bad judgement and stupidity.
Very true. I just found it somewhat ironic. One question I have that I'm not sure I've seen an answer to is WHY GZ got out of the truck at all. He thinks a suspicious kid is up to no good, he's, alerted 911 and is aware police are en route. Why continue to follow TM? And WHY get out of the truck?!

Even if TM ran towards GZs truck waving his skittles and tea in a threatening manner (is that even possible?) GZ could just step on the gas....
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  #366  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaliste View Post
Very true. I just found it somewhat ironic. One question I have that I'm not sure I've seen an answer to is WHY GZ got out of the truck at all. He thinks a suspicious kid is up to no good, he's, alerted 911 and is aware police are en route. Why continue to follow TM? And WHY get out of the truck?!

Even if TM ran towards GZs truck waving his skittles and tea in a threatening manner (is that even possible?) GZ could just step on the gas....
I think its clear from 911 call that he was concerned that a "suspicious" person is going to get away.
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  #367  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:06 AM
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729,465 Siggies, on Tray'a petition Y'all...
Woot!
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  #368  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by rossva View Post
Where do you think he is? Running, or hiding?
I personally don't care. He can't outrun JUSTICE, nor can he hide from it forever.

Media reports are that he is in hiding.
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  #369  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:11 AM
Sensei Sensei is offline
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Originally Posted by rossva View Post
snipped for space ( I hope)

As tragic as Martin's death is, I think it's going to be difficult to prove Zimmerman technically broke any laws.


I respectfully beg to differ with you on that. While it is true that there isn't an eye witness, nor a camera which caught everything on tape, there is STILL evidence, there is in actuality mountains of circumstantial evidence which is still valuable evidence that cannot be dismissed.

When my kid was 3 and I had a chocolate cake on the table, and he came into the living room with chocolate smeared all over his mouth and there were little fingerprint tunnels all through the icing on the cake I did NOT have to have a tape of him doing it to know he had been in my cake.

Beyond a reasonable doubt does NOT mean erasing ALL doubt, accepting on the concrete hard and fast truth.

A reasonable person could and very likely would conclude that There is no reasonable or logical reason that TM would after running and attempting to geet away from GZ would suddenly turn and attack, with such ferocity and viciousness that GZ who was armed with a loaded gun, bigger and older than him was in actual fear of his life. There is a huge preponderance of circumstantial evidence to show that TM had no interest in any form of physical confrontation and was actively attempting to avoid it until it was forced on him by GZ.

By forcing that confrontation which led to the young mans death GZ did in deed and in fact technically and actually break the law.

Last edited by ynotdivein; 03-21-2012 at 12:18 AM. Reason: fixed broken quote
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  #370  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:14 AM
HiHater HiHater is offline
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Originally Posted by curl_in_progress View Post
Does anyone have any thoughts on how the call with Tray and his girlfriend dropped so quickly? I'm surprised she didn't hear more of the altercation. I can definitely see the phone call eventually dropping during a struggle, but I just can't figure out how one push would cause the phone to disconnect.
Maybe the call wasn't disconnected by him. She could have heard something going on and been saying "helloooo." If she wasn't getting an answer, maybe she thought to hang up, have the phone actually ring, and get his attention like that.

JMO
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  #371  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:16 AM
Horace Finklestein Horace Finklestein is offline
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Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossva View Post
snipped for space ( I hope)

As tragic as Martin's death is, I think it's going to be difficult to prove Zimmerman technically broke any laws.


I respectfully beg to differ with you on that. While it is true that there isn't an eye witness, nor a camera which caught everything on tape, there is STILL evidence, there is in actuality mountains of circumstantial evidence which is still valuable evidence that cannot be dismissed.

When my kid was 3 and I had a chocolate cake on the table, and he came into the living room with chocolate smeared all over his mouth and there were little fingerprint tunnels all through the icing on the cake I did NOT have to have a tape of him doing it to know he had been in my cake.

Beyond a reasonable doubt does NOT mean erasing ALL doubt, accepting on the concrete hard and fast truth.

A reasonable person could and very likely would conclude that There is no reasonable or logical reason that TM would after running and attempting to geet away from GZ would suddenly turn and attack, with such ferocity and viciousness that GZ who was armed with a loaded gun, bigger and older than him was in actual fear of his life. There is a huge preponderance of circumstantial evidence to show that TM had no interest in any form of physical confrontation and was actively attempting to avoid it until it was forced on him by GZ.

By forcing that confrontation which led to the young mans death GZ did in deed and in fact technically and actually break the law.
Well there is an eyewitness that said he saw Trayvon on top of GZ attacking him...
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Last edited by Salem; 03-22-2012 at 12:01 AM. Reason: fix quote
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  #372  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:17 AM
HiHater HiHater is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossva View Post
WFTV says not racial slur. For those that have suggested Zimmerman was a racist based on that recording - see how easy it is to hear what you want and make snap judgements, exactly what Zimmerman did when he saw Martin.

Perhaps Martin thought (as many others thought) he heard Zimmerman make a racial slur, and as passionate as people get over such slurs, did attack Zimmerman.

As tragic as Martin's death is, I think it's going to be difficult to prove Zimmerman technically broke any laws.



"Throughout the day, people on social media websites began reporting that they heard the racial slur; however, others said they don't believe that it was an offensive comment. To listen for yourself, click here.

WFTV had an audio expert listen to the call, and determined that the word said was "punks.""

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/state-...y-shoot/nLX9c/
I'll wait for the DOJ or FBI decision once they enhance the tapes. I did not hear an -unk. Unless Floridians have an alternate way to pronounce the word "punk" I'm not convinced. JMO and no one has to agree!

I'm also concerned that one of the family attorneys says their tape does not contain that...
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  #373  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:18 AM
HiHater HiHater is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horace Finklestein View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossva View Post
snipped for space ( I hope)

As tragic as Martin's death is, I think it's going to be difficult to prove Zimmerman technically broke any laws.
Well there is an eyewitness that said he saw Trayvon on top of GZ attacking him...
I haven't heard any witness use the term "attack." I've heard wrestle and struggle, but not attack. JMO

Last edited by Salem; 03-22-2012 at 12:02 AM. Reason: fix quote
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  #374  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:20 AM
Sensei Sensei is offline
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Originally Posted by Kaliste View Post
Very true. I just found it somewhat ironic. One question I have that I'm not sure I've seen an answer to is WHY GZ got out of the truck at all. He thinks a suspicious kid is up to no good, he's, alerted 911 and is aware police are en route. Why continue to follow TM? And WHY get out of the truck?!

Even if TM ran towards GZs truck waving his skittles and tea in a threatening manner (is that even possible?) GZ could just step on the gas....
My opinion only, He had every intention of getting out of the truck, he got out of the truck for the exact same reason that he was carrying a loaded gun, and I don't think that gun was for protection. It is perfectly clear that he was intent on forcing a confrontation with this A$$hat black kid in a hoodie that he was certain was up to no good, and he was going to put the fear of God and the neighborhood watch into him.....he was Neighborhood watch almighty and he was going to chase him down and show him .... and he did.

The idea that he approached and politely asked the young man if he were lost and why was he in the neighborhood was just not on the agenda, he approched in a belligerant way, and wanted to do "What are you doing around here" in a threatening manner....and very likely started the confrontation by putting his hands on Tray First....

It was what he intended to do all along and is precisely why he got out of the truck to begin with.
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  #375  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
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Well there is an eyewitness that said he saw Trayvon on top of GZ attacking him...
Horace, is your source for this item this Feb. 27 news article?

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news...od-altercation

This was published the day after the killing, and apparently updated on March 14. Yet it still contains information that Tracy Martin is Tray's mother, when he is actually Tray's father.

"On Monday afternoon, a FOX 35 News crew met with Tracy Martin who said the victim in the shooting is her 17-year-old son, Trayvon, who was visiting from Miami.

"He walked out of the house to go to the store. He was going to the store," she said. "He doesn't know anybody here. He just came down here, so he was bored, so he walked down to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."


So if, the day after the killing occurred, a news crew met with somebody, assigned them dad's name and said they were mom (who we now know does not live in Sanford at all), then maybe it's prudent to view this early report with a more skeptical eye.
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