FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #2 - Page 17

Sensei · #**401** 03-21-2012, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjenny

Not with "stand your ground" law.

Stand you Ground does NOT mean that the police CANNOT arrest someone, it means that in Court you can ask a Judge to dismiss the case because you were acting in self defense

Once again SYG is a Legal defense intended for Court of LAW, it is NOT for the police to decide that they can't arrest you once you have said that....

They can and do arrest people who shoot other people, no matter what they say during questioning, they can investigate, and they turn the evidence over to the Prosecutor who decides who to charge and with what,

The Police should not unilaterally decide that this is a self defense case and just not do their job Because that decision rightfully belongs in Court.

porkchop · #**402** 03-21-2012, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjenny

Not with "stand your ground" law.

How do you figure Zimmerman stood his ground? He followed then chased an unarmed person who wasn't breaking any law. If Tray was indeed fighting him it was Tray who was standing him ground because being chased by somebody is grounds for fearing that you are in danger and would give him the right to defend himself. The whole thing about Zimmerman standing his ground was just something the cops cooked up to try to cover up the fact that they tried to sweep this under the rug, and it is falling apart.

Sensei · #**403** 03-21-2012, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiHater

I'm sure the clocks are involved in some giant conspiracy.

hahahahahah okay, thanks for the laugh of the night

mikeysmommom · #**404** 03-21-2012, 01:15 AM

The Police talked to people who were witness's and they talked to GZ.At that time if they felt he should have been arrested he would have been.It is up to the investigating officers whether to arrest GZ,apparently they did not charge him based on what they were told by anyone who saw what happened.

jjenny · #**405** 03-21-2012, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei

Stand you Ground does NOT mean that the police CANNOT arrest someone, it means that in Court you can ask a Judge to dismiss the case because you were acting in self defense

Once again SYG is a Legal defense intended for Court of LAW, it is NOT for the police to decide that they can't arrest you once you have said that....

They can and do arrest people who shoot other people, no matter what they say during questioning, they can investigate, and they turn the evidence over to the Prosecutor who decides who to charge and with what,

The Police should not unilaterally decide that this is a self defense case and just not do their job Because that decision rightfully belongs in Court.

This is hardly the only case where police haven't arrested someone claiming self-defense.

jjenny · #**406** 03-21-2012, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiHater

I'm sure the clocks are involved in some giant conspiracy.

Well maybe you should explain how based on these times, he could be on the phone with girlfriend when he is already dead.

Sensei · #**407** 03-21-2012, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeysmommom

The Police talked to people who were witness's and they talked to GZ.At that time if they felt he should have been arrested he would have been.It is up to the investigating officers whether to arrest GZ,apparently they did not charge him based on what they were told by anyone who saw what happened.

I am normally a staunch supporter of LE, but in this case, actually a 13 yr old who has seen a couple of episodes of CSI could have done a better job of investigating. They DID NOT take GZ for a drug and alcohol test even though that is SOP in any death, they did NOT make a photgraphic or get a Dr report on the injuries that GZ supposedly sustained, and there is evidence that they actively attempted to sway or change witness statements to make them more favorable to GZ. THEN they decided there was not enough evidece to take to the Prosecutor...They did a really really bad job, a shoddy job, maybe even wilful negligence, and very possible worse

They could not possibly have made a decision based on the evidence because they really didn't collect a great portion of the evidence.

Sensei · #**408** 03-21-2012, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjenny

This is hardly the only case where police haven't arrested someone claiming self-defense.

The major difference perhaps being that there was good evidence collection and ample evidence showed that it was indeed self defense....unlike this case.

porkchop · #**409** 03-21-2012, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjenny

Well maybe you should explain how based on these times, he could be on the phone with girlfriend when he is already dead.

He was using his head set. If it was knocked out of his ear and the microphone had broken his girlfriend would have thought the call had dropped because his side would have gone silent. But in reality they were still connected for a time during the fight.

jjenny · #**410** 03-21-2012, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei

The major difference perhaps being that there was good evidence collection and ample evidence showed that it was indeed self defense....unlike this case.

I don't think so.

jjenny · #**411** 03-21-2012, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porkchop

He was using his head set. If it was knocked out of his ear and the microphone had broken his girlfriend would have thought the call had dropped because his side would have gone silent. But in reality they were still connected for a time during the fight.

If his phone broke that could explain it. Although I think she would have hung up quickly if she couldn't hear anything.

IzzyBlanche · #**412** 03-21-2012, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjenny

What exactly do you think would have happened then?

Oh, I don't know, but I would guess at the very least, a quickly charged count of manslaughter against the killer who struck down an unarmed, defenseless man whose only crime was walking in a neighborhood where his skin color varied from that of most of the residents, where he had every right to walk.

HiHater · #**413** 03-21-2012, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjenny

Well maybe you should explain how based on these times, he could be on the phone with girlfriend when he is already dead.

The girlfriend's call: http://www.wftv.com/news/news/state-...y-shoot/nLX9c/

Zimmerman's 911 call: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...allHistory.pdf

Shooting time: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...e-shell-casing

As I said, the only time that is not exact is the time of the shooting. Most outlets report "about 7:15."

Does that help you at all?

jjenny · #**414** 03-21-2012, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IzzyBlanche

Oh, I don't know, but I would guess at the very least, a quickly charged count of manslaughter against the killer who struck down an unarmed, defenseless man whose only crime was walking in a neighborhood where his skin color varied from that of most of the residents, where he had every right to walk.

And what exactly do you base this on? Can you site a similar case in Fl where this in fact happened?

jjenny · #**415** 03-21-2012, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiHater

The girlfriend's call: http://www.wftv.com/news/news/state-...y-shoot/nLX9c/

Zimmerman's 911 call: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...allHistory.pdf

Shooting time: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...e-shell-casing

As I said, the only time that is not exact is the time of the shooting. Most outlets report "about 7:15."

Does that help you at all?

From that same article:

"Police documented that they arrived at scene at 7:17 p/m., which is less than five minutes after Martin's friend called. Crump said that records show there wasn’t much during the altercation, and she was on the phone for four of those minutes, so that Martin was the aggressor was "preposterous.""

But they do have numerous witnesses who heard the fight and screams for help. So really how short was the confrontation if numerous people managed to call 911 during that time?

porkchop · #**416** 03-21-2012, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjenny

If his phone broke that could explain it. Although I think she would have hung up quickly if she couldn't hear anything.

Not the phone, the headset. If the headset would have broken the call would have stayed connected but she wouldn't be able to hear anything from his end until he disengaged the headset. Plus if she looked at her phone it would have showed that the call was still connected, so she could have been thinking he was just getting a bad signal.

HiHater · #**417** 03-21-2012, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjenny

From that same article:

"Police documented that they arrived at scene at 7:17 p/m., which is less than five minutes after Martin's friend called. Crump said that records show there wasn’t much during the altercation, and she was on the phone for four of those minutes, so that Martin was the aggressor was "preposterous.""

But they do have numerous witnesses who heard the fight and screams for help. So really how short was the confrontation if numerous people managed to call 911 during that time?

How long would Tray have to scream before people started calling? You can hear the screams in one of the 911 calls, that's how short the confrontation is!

Anyway, I'm not going back and forth with you. I led you to the "facts" as we know them. If you still want to blame discrepancies on clocks instead of using logic and rationality, then that's your call.

Sensei · #**418** 03-21-2012, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjenny

From that same article:

"Police documented that they arrived at scene at 7:17 p/m., which is less than five minutes after Martin's friend called. Crump said that records show there wasn’t much during the altercation, and she was on the phone for four of those minutes, so that Martin was the aggressor was "preposterous.""

But they do have numerous witnesses who heard the fight and screams for help. So really how short was the confrontation if numerous people managed to call 911 during that time?

Taking the most liberal view possible, GZ called 911 at 7:09,
and TM was dead very close to or around 7:15

That is 6 whole minutes....time for GZ to chase TM, even if he only took a minute to chase him down that is now 5 whole minutes,

My Aunt Fanny is 4'11 and weighs 89 lbs and she could fight with an unarmed kid who weighed 140 lbs for 5 whole minutes

he went to the trouble to chase him down, he confronted him by asking him what he was doing, and supposedly while he was doing the chasing and the confronting he was Not afraid for his life or he would have been running the other way...then 5 minutes later he has a bloody nose and is in fear of his life???? From a kid who is 60 lbs lighter, 10 years younger and has NO weapon and NOTHING no weapon or even anything that could conceivably be istaken for a weapon visible in his hands

And somehow this is enough to justify KILLING a 17 yr old kid who was doing NOTHING WRONG a kid who didn't approach him and was actually trying to run away from him.....That is so messed up I don't even know where to go from there.

I just can't see self defense in there anywhere, it just is not reasonable or logical unless you are in some fantasy world where the dead kid just HAS to be wrong somehow.

HiHater · #**419** 03-21-2012, 03:53 AM

National news, now...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhoo...ry?id=15966309

Quote:

The Florida police department handling the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teen by a self-appointed neighborhood watch leader admitted to ABC News tonight that investigators missed a possible racist remark by the shooter as he spoke to police dispatchers moments before the killing.

2goldfish · #**420** 03-21-2012, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiHater

National news, now...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhoo...ry?id=15966309

international

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/sear...Phrase=trayvon

angelmom · #**421** 03-21-2012, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltzingmatilda

I just checked my FB page as I posted a link to the petition this am. One of my friends commented on my page that GZ worked for him for 3 years and was a nice guy, would help anybody out, not a racist, keep an open mind, yadda yadda.

I wasn't sure how to respond. How should one respond when someone defends a murderer?

Not sure if I'd respond at all, but make a mental note that this friend maybe isn't the best judge of character. Maybe. I'm just sayin'. Like, if he recommends a babysitter (or a neighborhood watch captain), you might choose to hire someone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeannaT

Since Zimmerman had moisture and grass all over his back, and a head injury to the back of his head, and bleeding from his nose, I think it's CLEAR he was in a physical confrontation and he was losing.

That may meet Florida's right to defend your life laws, I don't know. If I were in Zimmerman's position, I'd surely have used any weapon I had in my possession to survive.

He didn't have a head injury. He was checked and released from the hospital. Don't you think that if he had an actual injury the police would have been waving that all over the news? He had blood on the back of his head, probably from when he put his own hands to his head in the "What have I done?" position witnesses describe. It could have been Tray's blood, literally on his hands. Unfortunately we'll never know b/c the investigation was so minimal. The law says you have to be in reasonable fear for your life, not that you got your shirt dirty when you jumped an unarmed kid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei

I am normally a staunch supporter of LE, but in this case, actually a 13 yr old who has seen a couple of episodes of CSI could have done a better job of investigating. They DID NOT take GZ for a drug and alcohol test even though that is SOP in any death, they did NOT make a photgraphic or get a Dr report on the injuries that GZ supposedly sustained, and there is evidence that they actively attempted to sway or change witness statements to make them more favorable to GZ. THEN they decided there was not enough evidece to take to the Prosecutor...They did a really really bad job, a shoddy job, maybe even wilful negligence, and very possible worse

They could not possibly have made a decision based on the evidence because they really didn't collect a great portion of the evidence.

EXACTLY. In fact, the crappy "investigation" may be the nail in GZ's coffin. If they had actually bothered to do any of these things, some of them may have come down on GZ's side of the story (GSR on his shirt, clean BAC/drug test, etc.) but now that it's too late people can speculate all day long. In fact, it won't surprise me at some point if GZ himself blames LE for not investigating further b/c the burden of proof is on him, and now he has nothing to work with.

When the police jump to conclusions, there are no winners. My gut has told me all along that GZ committed a murder here, but if I were a juror I'd want to see more evidence and would be frustrated. Normally that would work against the prosecutor, but in an affirmative defense case it actually penalizes the defense.

Only4Justice · #**422** 03-21-2012, 07:03 AM

I am absolutely OUTRAGED that GZ has not been arrested! How was he standing his ground when he was following Tray? Total BS. In all the years I've been interested in crime cases, I've never seen someone walking free after killing an innocent person! Where's that petition?????

Angels_Not_Forgotten · #**423** 03-21-2012, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curl_in_progress

Does anyone have any thoughts on how the call with Tray and his girlfriend dropped so quickly? I'm surprised she didn't hear more of the altercation. I can definitely see the phone call eventually dropping during a struggle, but I just can't figure out how one push would cause the phone to disconnect.

I have an Android phone that I drop, quite frequently unfortunately, and ever time its dropped, the back comes off and the battery comes out. When I first read the articles I thought that might have happened here. For whatever reason, fear, being physically attacked, or running and dropped it, I'm thinking when the phone dropped, the battery came out, and the call was ended. Does anyone remember if the girlfriend said it went to vm when she called back, or did she just say she couldn't reach him?

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

203_forensics · #**424** 03-21-2012, 08:10 AM

How bad was Zimmerman bleeding if he was only looked at by SFD in the back of the police car according to the report? GZ had light complexion, so if he was being hit in the face he should have some bruising or redness. Since it was raining GZ could've slipped during the altercation.

TerriM · #**425** 03-21-2012, 08:37 AM

Sorry if I missed this info but is GZ related to a LE officer or someone in some kind of authority there. I'm just stunned this gounod still walking free.