FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #2

[rossva]

I agree; Martin didn't deserve to be killed. What I am looking at are all the circumstances that led up to the confrontation.

If I saw some one do what Martin did, I most likely would have called 911 and reported it also. I may have also followed and observed at a safe distance till LE did infact arrive, especially if there had been unsolved breakins recently. I would not have gone up to him personally, nor would I have carried a weapon.

The problem is there is only one living person who knows exactly what happened. It is possible what Zimmerman is claiming is EXACTLY what happened that night. It's also just as POSSIBLE that Zimmerman called out to Martin, Martin stopped, and Zimmerman just shot him point blank.

Originally Posted by Aedrys

So what does that mean, that he deserved to be killed for looking suspicious? A lot of people look suspicious. That doesn't give anyone the right to chase them down and kill them. That is the problem here.

[gitana1]

Originally Posted by jjenny

If you read the actual statute it does have a part on using deadly force by an aggressor.

You have been alerting everyone as to the ramifications of this law from the beginning of this case. Few have listened. But it's all over the papers and radio now. I still think Zimmerman can be prosecuted, the law notwithstanding. But I will review it more deeply. Thanks for sounding the alarm.

[rossva]

In addition to the discussion's going on, should we perhaps discuss why Zimmerman was able to get a concealed carry permit in the first place? Are Florida's laws regarding that too lax?

[Talina]

Originally Posted by HiHater

You might have a point if it had been George Zimmerman's porch. Maybe you would have a point if Trayvon was shot on that porch, because Zimmerman thought he was about to attempt a burglary or something.

Since neither of those scenarios are true....

Just sayin.

Good point.

To also further that, if a person were to see someone that they thought was suspicious on a neighbor's porch, I can't imagine approaching and confronting that person. I believe the proper thing to do is call 911.

I understand the premise of standing your ground and self defense and I agree with there being protections under the law such as this; however, I see NOTHING at all in this situation that even remotely leads me to believe self defense had anything to do with Zimmerman pulling the trigger on his gun. I'd like to ask Zimmerman one question: "Precisely at what point in your pursuit and following Tray did you switch roles and you become the hunted with him being the hunter?"

It seems very apparent to me that it was Tray that stopped and stood his ground against his aggressor, not the other way around.

IMO

[daisy7]

Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy

I just read about his excuse for getting out of of his car. Where did this statement come from? Wonder what his explanation was for chasing Trayvon as evidenced in his own 911 call?

[LolaMoon08]

Originally Posted by daisy7

Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy

I just read about his excuse for getting out of of his car. Where did this statement come from? Wonder what his explanation was for chasing Trayvon as evidenced in his own 911 call?

It's just a big mess! I want to listen to the actual interview with Zimmerman that recorded his statements about what happened that night... if one even exists?!

[Wise Old Owl]

Originally Posted by daisy7

Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy

I just read about his excuse for getting out of of his car. Where did this statement come from? Wonder what his explanation was for chasing Trayvon as evidenced in his own 911 call?

ITA Daisy - but if you listen on the 911 call, GZ clearly states the name of a street - early on, in the beginning. He knew the street names - you bet on that. No way am I going to believe he got out of his truck to see the street sign.

JMHO

[SuziQ]

Originally Posted by daisy7

Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy

I just read about his excuse for getting out of of his car. Where did this statement come from? Wonder what his explanation was for chasing Trayvon as evidenced in his own 911 call?

It says it came from police. IIRC, in other articles it actually was a statement made by Lee. Sorry I don't have a link for you.

[wishuwerehere]

Originally Posted by Wise Old Owl

ITA Daisy - but if you listen on the 911 call, GZ clearly states the name of a street - early on, in the beginning. He knew the street names - you bet on that. No way am I going to believe he got out of his truck to see the street sign.

JMHO

Agreed.

If Zimmerman was the neighborhood “watch” captain, and it has been reported that he called 911 46 times last year, wouldn’t he know the names of the streets in that area like the back of his hand? So, no need to get out of his vehicle, right?

jmo

[Talina]

Originally Posted by daisy7

Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy

I just read about his excuse for getting out of of his car. Where did this statement come from? Wonder what his explanation was for chasing Trayvon as evidenced in his own 911 call?

That clearly does not correlate with what he is describing on his 911 call. He's already out of his vehicle following and pursuing Tray while he is on the phone with 911 operator.

I wonder where in his story line does he then get back into his car, get out again to look at the street name and then is ambushed from behind by Tray.

That story also does not match at all what Tray's girlfriend is saying she overheard.

I'm thinking we'll now hear several different versions from Zimmerman about what happened that fateful day because a lie is harder to remember than the truth.

IMO

[Lovejac]

Originally Posted by ScubaTwinn

"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

If it were a cell phone, wouldn't GZ have seen him on the phone? I'm guessing he wouldn't have wanted to confront anyone if he saw them on the phone talking. But if it were a blue tooth/ear piece, it's possible he couldn't see it. I guess it doesn't matter at this point and I don't know why it's bugging me. MOO

Remember, it was rainy and Trayvon was wearing his hood up. GZ probably wasn't able to see it.

[Anadarko]

Originally Posted by daisy7

Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy

I just read about his excuse for getting out of of his car. Where did this statement come from? Wonder what his explanation was for chasing Trayvon as evidenced in his own 911 call?

Wasn't he on neighborhood watch patrol? Shouldn't he already know the names of the streets? Who does he think he's kidding?

GZ was following TM, against the advice of the dispatcher. So how did he get attacked from behind?

[Lovejac]

Originally Posted by daisy7

Change.org released a list Tuesday of celebrities who are supporting an online petition for Trayvon Martin.

Read more: http://www.wesh.com/slideshow/news/3...#ixzz1pgGv1FNv

Hooray! Thank you, thank you, thank you Hollywood peeps!

ETA: imagine how many fans they can reach with just one tweet!!

[Talina]

Originally Posted by Lovejac

Remember, it was rainy and Trayvon was wearing his hood up. GZ probably wasn't able to see it.

I'm thinking GZ had no idea that Trayvon was on the phone. His girlfriend is quoted in the newspaper article as saying his ear piece fell out while she was one the phone with him, during the verbal exchange she overheard right before their call got disconnected.

I bet that this news release of that conversation/verbal confrontation being overheard is the first Zimmerman is finding out that Tray was on the phone when this all went down.

Surprise, surprise.

IMO

[ziggy]

This case is tragic. I don't want to attack the "Stand Your Ground" law or conceal carry laws because they are not the problem.

The problem is this individual who seems to have a policeman fantasy. There are bad people who abuse laws designed for good citizens to protect themselves.

This guy will go down eventually. I don't think there is enough evidence for him to successfully argue self defense AND I want justice for this young man.

[GiantPickle]

Its a natural reaction to duck quickly out of the rain, assess it and as a kid decide "eh, I'll be alright if I put my hood up. I've just got a block more to go." two seconds later. I don't find anything suspicious in that at all. It would have been weirder if he hung out.

I don't necessarily fault GZ for calling 911. If you isolate this incident itself and don't take any of his side comments on the 911 tape in to account, its OK for him to phone in an unknown teen walking in the gated community. It would have been a 2 second well-check from the police and that'd be that. Though it is very creepy, I could almost let GZ following him in the car slide if he followed Trayvon to his final destination instead of hopping out and hunting him down on foot. But GZs history is suspect, then his stalking of the boy and CHOICE to confront what is naturally a freaked out kid with a strange man following him makes this pretty cut and dry murder to me.

[Talina]

Originally Posted by GiantPickle

Its a natural reaction to duck quickly out of the rain, assess it and as a kid decide "eh, I'll be alright if I put my hood up. I've just got a block more to go." two seconds later. I don't find anything suspicious in that at all. It would have been weirder if he hung out.

I don't necessarily fault GZ for calling 911. If you isolate this incident itself and don't take any of his side comments on the 911 tape in to account, its OK for him to phone in an unknown teen walking in the gated community. It would have been a 2 second well-check from the police and that'd be that. Though it is very creepy, I could almost let GZ following him in the car slide if he followed Trayvon to his final destination instead of hopping out and hunting him down on foot. But GZs history is suspect, then his stalking of the boy and CHOICE to confront what is naturally a freaked out kid with a strange man following him makes this pretty cut and dry murder to me.

I could really see a scenario like the following happening. An aware neighbor noticing a teen walking through the gated community, doesn't recognize them, sees them on a porch, then leave the porch, follows them to a house they see them walk into then that teen tells parents some weirdo was following me in a car and watching me like he was staking me out or something. Those parents call 911 while at the same time Zimmerman has also called 911 so we have competing 911 calls going on and the police come out to sort it all out.

That, to me, is what should have happened.

IMO

[jjenny]

Originally Posted by gitana1

You have been alerting everyone as to the ramifications of this law from the beginning of this case. Few have listened. But it's all over the papers and radio now. I still think Zimmerman can be prosecuted the law notwithstanding. But I will review it more deeply. Thanks for sounding the alarm.

I agree in that I think he could be prosecuted. But what they are saying the worse he migh face is manslaughter (not murder) because of this law.
And even then its unclear if he can be sucessfully prosecuted.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by rossva

I agree; Martin didn't deserve to be killed. What I am looking at are all the circumstances that led up to the confrontation.

If I saw some one do what Martin did, I most likely would have called 911 and reported it also. I may have also followed and observed at a safe distance till LE did infact arrive, especially if there had been unsolved breakins recently. I would not have gone up to him personally, nor would I have carried a weapon.

The problem is there is only one living person who knows exactly what happened. It is possible what Zimmerman is claiming is EXACTLY what happened that night. It's also just as POSSIBLE that Zimmerman called out to Martin, Martin stopped, and Zimmerman just shot him point blank.

Top line BBM
I respect that. I walked away from posting a few days ago because of the attacks for asking questions.
**
There were not just two or three factors that made this happen. There were thousands. We do not live in a vacuum. Wouldn't people rather convince a person of GZ's guilt by presenting linked facts then by attacking them for asking questions that could be relevant? And asking questions about TM does not mean we think he did anything wrong. * Just like GZ's 42 calls to LE since January are relevant. *ALL of the pieces are important. Just because one person might not think a fact is relevant doesn't mean others don't- the same with jurors. *And I am sure, at trial, GZ's lawyer will be using any information he can to show doubt to the jury.
Jmo

[jjenny]

Originally Posted by rossva

In addition to the discussion's going on, should we perhaps discuss why Zimmerman was able to get a concealed carry permit in the first place? Are Florida's laws regarding that too lax?

He isn't a convicted felon so based on gun laws he'd be able to carry gun in any state where one can carry a gun (I think).

[jjenny]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Top line BBM
I respect that. I walked away from posting a few days ago because of the attacks for asking questions.
**
There were not just two or three factors that made this happen. There were thousands. We do not live in a vacuum. Wouldn't people rather convince a person of GZ's guilt by presenting linked facts then by attacking them for asking questions that could be relevant? And asking questions about TM does not mean we think he did anything wrong. * Just like GZ's 42 calls to LE since January are relevant. *ALL of the pieces are important. Just because one person might not think a fact is relevant doesn't mean others don't- the same with jurors. *And I am sure, at trial, GZ's lawyer will be using any information he can to show doubt to the jury.
Jmo

It won't be a jury. Because of "stand your ground" law this will go to a judge.

[jjenny]

Originally Posted by Aedrys

That's what I thought! Something is seriously wrong here that he claimed self defense and apparently the police accepted it and let him go. Sounds like a good ol' boy network or something. I have NEVER heard of this just being accepted - it always has to go to court and be argued, especially if the person who was killed was unarmed! Shoot, if it were you or me, we'd have to prove it in court! I think some heads are going to roll in that police department when all is said and done.

Not in FL it doesn't.

[Dr.Fessel]

Originally Posted by jjenny

It won't be a jury. Because of "stand your ground" law this will go to a judge.

Why do you say that? How does this stand your ground law stop you from being charged with murder or being put in front of a jury?

[HiHater]

2 Questions/comments

Just because the Stand Your Ground Law exists, doesn't mean it applies to this case. Someone let me know if I'm completely wrong on that.

Stand your ground cases DO go to a jury, but the judge can decide to drop the charges and grant immunity before it gets to that point. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

TIA

[Anadarko]

Originally Posted by jjenny

It won't be a jury. Because of "stand your ground" law this will go to a judge.

The 'stand your ground' law would NOT apply here, so why wouldn't it go to a jury? That law is only useful if you are attacked and trying to protect yourself, or your property. It really has zero to do with this case, so I'm not sure why it keeps coming up.

Just because someone wants to tell that lie to LE, doesn't make it so.